(Video evidence) Bee Queen was supposed to be Walter's main downside nightmare, but now is only a punchbag. The slowing rounds is broken.

[Steorra]

1 minute ago, asdsaax said:

I find it funny that when discussing balance and difficulty of the game
people just collectively pretend that gunpowder doesn't exist

Gunpowder has a reasonable cost and a reasonable fault toleration. They are not same.

[Cassielu]

look, I know some people use the same absurd arguments and received bias on Wendy topic, you're angry, but that's not a reason to bring them into other characters topic. Those are absurd arguments, Klei was wrong, don't harm other parts of the game in same way.

Character's disadvantage are meant to encourage the player to behave in a certain way, not to make character bad on some things, difficult for no reason.

[kroban]

Okay how is this "Bee Queen being a punching bag"? Only because you are not getting hit? Like you do realize that getting hit once here is basically death for Walter, right?

From what I have seen and tested myself, the average Bee Queen's fight for Walter takes like 8 minutes, if not more. Its way more than the average fight for other characters and basically because its a no-hit fight.

You alledgedly "mained Wendy" before, so how is this more of a "punching bag" for Walter than what Wendy or other characters do?

- I have had BQ fights with Wendy where im killing her in less than 5 minutes and basically out of pressing F while micro-managing Abigail, which is extremely fast compared to other characters. She was considered the "Bee Queen killer character" for a long time before the skill trees because of this.

- Winona can kill her in less than 2 minutes and also not receiving any damage.

- I have seen friends that are Wormwood mains killing her without receiving damage out of spamming sleep mushrooms, or using Wormwoods traps.

- Maxwell is an oximoron in this game when we are talking about "op" I know, but he too can have a "punching bag" fight with Bee Queen.

- Wortox can spam soul damage and aoe with knabsack/decoys to pretty much fight Bee Queen alone while also receiving extra damage from her bees dying

[Guille6785]

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Cheese is another topic. Try to keep the discussion on topic. It's not such hard as you imagined.

what if I decide that slingshotting bee queen counts as cheese

[Steorra]

Just now, YouKnowWho142 said:

Do you think we are personally attacking you?

The last few days you have been oddly spreading misinformation and not really being thorough with research before going to the forums and calling it a problem that needs to be immediately fixed. It is important for healthy discussion but your recent discussions have not had a lot of credibility, and that is important to call out since it is giving others the wrong idea.

This is not an attack on you. We are not judging you. It seems beneficial to spend some time away from the forum, I know I've had to several times during this beta.

So where's the wrong info here?

To say "Steorra's feedback is wrong info" by only 1 misunderstood caused by a bug of the game is seems more like a slander. And again, keep the discussion on topic. If you think this thread has some wrong info, point it out. Making the discussion off topic and being personally thing helps nothing here. Our moderator already clarified "That's not our forum's business, leave your personally things in otherwhere."

Just now, Guille6785 said:

what if I decide that slingshotting bee queen counts as cheese

That's a good topic, but that's none of this thread's business since it would be a complex argument which is individual. Go start a thread for showing your ideas to tell us why "slingshotting (BQ) is a cheese"

[YouKnowWho142]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

So where's the wrong info here?

To say "Steorra's feedback is wrong info" by only 1 misunderstood caused by a bug of the game is seems more like a slander. And again, keep the discussion on topic. If you think this thread has some wrong info, point it out. Making the discussion off topic and being personally thing helps nothing here. Our moderator already clarified "That's not our forum's business, leave your personally things in otherwhere."

I think everyone has already spoken how i feel about it. Making Bee Queen harder for Walter just because of his bee allergy is artificial difficulty instead of changing his approach (which he already does, he can't tank this boss). That's all i have left to say.

[asdsaax]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Gunpowder has a reasonable cost and a reasonable fault toleration. They are not same.

I think that actually playing the game and getting rewarded for raiding ruins with BQ kill in more interesting way than tanking as Wilson 2 is a fair trade actually

like... You looted ruins, used materials for the rounds and utilized your abilities
why you shouldn't win that fight?

[Steorra]

2 minutes ago, kroban said:

Only because you are not getting hit? Like you do realize that getting hit once here is basically death for Walter, right?

Isn't this samely happened to Maxwell? Anyone here disagree that BQ is EZ for Maxwell comparing with mostly other characters?

2 minutes ago, kroban said:

while micro-managing Abigail,

So you did knew that you need micro-management as other characters. Good.

3 minutes ago, kroban said:

- Winona can kill her in less than 2 minutes and also not receiving any damage.

- I have seen friends that are Wormwood mains killing her without receiving damage out of spamming sleep mushrooms, or using Wormwoods traps.

I have no interest to join other comparison discussion expect Maxwell's. Since these two example you mentioned has obviously more expensive cost than Walter and Maxwell.

5 minutes ago, kroban said:

- Wortox now can spam soul damage and aoe with knabsack/decoys to basically always fight Bee Queen alone.

That's another topic. I 1000000% support you to start a thread to rise devs' attention to show that how "Wortox kill BQ in day 1 by 0 cost". I did knew it could and it is imbalance. I was just have no time to give a similar feedback.

4 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I think everyone has already spoken how i feel about it. Making Bee Queen harder for Walter just because of his bee allergy is artificial difficulty instead of changing his approach (which he already does, he can't tank this boss). That's all i have left to say.

maybe you should go say same thing to where I linked you of the side argument first. If you keep silence to other "unfair as you judged" but being to have personal emotions when the thing you dislike happened to a character you like, that's more like a flexible standard which only diminish your words' credibility.

[YouKnowWho142]

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

maybe you should go say same thing to where I linked you of the side argument first. If you keep silence to other "unfair as you judged" but being to have personal emotions when the thing you dislike happened to a character you like, that's more like a flexible standard which only diminish your words' credibility.

 

11 minutes ago, Steorra said:

And again, keep the discussion on topic. Making the discussion off topic and being personally thing helps nothing here

?????

[aidankocherhans]

10 minutes ago, Steorra said:

This discussion is aiming to make BQ being hardest challenge to Walter comparing with other characters.

There is no way this can be accomplished. The slingshot gives Walter a natural advantage against bee queen, and the only way to make it that hard would be to somehow make avoiding damage extremely hard. If that were the case, she would be nearly unbeatable for most people because he takes way too much damage from them, and Woby would be useless because of bucking.

The slingshot gives him a way to work around his weakness, because he simply cannot fight her the way most characters would. It wouldn't be fair or fun to lock him off from beating bee queen, especially since part of his skill tree is locked behind her now.

[Steorra]

10 minutes ago, asdsaax said:

I think that actually playing the game and getting rewarded for raiding ruins with BQ kill in more interesting way than tanking as Wilson 2 is a fair trade actually

like... You looted ruins, used materials for the rounds and utilized your abilities
why you shouldn't win that fight?

There's a huge difference between "Looted ruins, used the loots and skills to kill BQ" & "Looted ruins, used the loots and hoding left-click to kill BQ".

Averagely, Wilson need 1 Scale Armor, 4 Thulecite Crowns, 1 Panflute, 1 Marble Suit, 40 blue mushrooms and enough skills to kill BQ.

Wilson has no downside toward bees.

How could you think this is fair to Wilson?

1 minute ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

 

?????

I already gave enough arguments to prove my opinions. You just continuosly ignoring them. So let you go discuss with others would save my time.

[aidankocherhans]

8 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I have no interest to join other comparison discussion expect Maxwell's. Since these two example you mentioned has obviously more expensive cost than Walter and Maxwell.

Wendy

[SilverSpoon]

26 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Do you think we are personally attacking you?

Yes. 

If all of you are only "Just pointing out mistakes", then what is all a towering mountain of insults that have been hurled at them?

[Dear Community Manager. If this post not approved, I think would be really furious. I NEVER tolerate that attempt to portray the treatment they received an are receiving as "Just pointing out a mistake."]

[Steorra]

15 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

There is no way this can be accomplished.

No. Here 2 options and I just edited them into OP:

1. simply nerf the slowing effect but give extra speed to Woby when riding. You already have Shadow Dashing with I.frame. It do helps a lot for interact with BQ. 

2. Buff the pursuit distance of grumble bees when in BQ fighting. Make them won't back around BQ but only still pursuit you when you too far away with BQ.

11 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

Wendy

Still need micro-management of Abby and much more expensive for healing and armor. 

Not like Walter, WSAD, switching the rounds, holding left-click, auto-win.

[Chewabacca]

25 minutes ago, kroban said:

Okay how is this "Bee Queen being a punching bag"? Only because you are not getting hit? Like you do realize that getting hit once here is basically death for Walter, right?

THIS. Every fight looks easy to no-hit when no-hits are the only possible successes. It's what happens when you don't have a proper gauge on how much healing and armor a boss will take you. The answer is always 0, but it's not the sort of 0 where there's no possibility of you needing healing/armor--it's the sort of 0 where no amount of healing and armor can help you. That doesn't make it actually easy.

[Steorra]

1 minute ago, Chewabacca said:

THIS. Every fight looks easy to no-hit when no-hits are the only possible successes. It's what happens when you don't have a proper gauge on how much healing and armor a boss will take you. The answer is always 0, but it's not the sort of 0 where there's no possibility of you needing healing/armor--it's the sort of 0 where no amount of healing and armor can help you. That doesn't make it actually easy.

To be honest, you are right in some content.

But there's a huge difference between "skillful dodging & interacting with bosses and kill them" and "WSAD, Slowing, Holding left-click, WSAD, auto-win".

And, I keep wondering why you Walter players did knew that Walter has a broken interaction for boss fightings but none of you ask for an "allow you take extra hits before Woby drop you down" ability? This is an obviously solution to the broken interaction of boss fighting right?

[YouKnowWho142]

Just now, Steorra said:

But there's a huge difference between "skillful dodging & interacting with bosses and kill them" and "WSAD, Slowing, Holding left-click, WSAD, auto-win".

What's the difference? Genuinely curious. The "skillful dodging" you speak of is also ultimately just WSAD, Holding left-click, and winning. It doesn't really work in this tpic either since bee queen is basically unkiteable, so it actually takes more involvement and more effort for walter to kill bee queen than for any other character to facetank and win.

[_mylilsunshine_]

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

I edit here for adding 2 potential options to fix this issue:

1. Nerf the purple gem slowing rounds, at the same time, give a accelaration buff to Woby while riding for helping Walter to dodge grumble bees; give an extra skill for Woby to make she could tolerate you to get 2 extra hits before Woby drop you down.

if you think currently bee queen is a a joke and walter walks over her, then nerfing the slow-down round should make everything fair, right? so why is there a need to buff walter/woby then? wouldn't the nerf and buff bring everything back to being a cake walk? let me visualize it then

currently, bee queen fight is at level 5 (extremely easy), nerfing slow-down round brings it down to 3 (fair), but at the same time, buffing woby/walter brings it back to 5

what points are you trying to make here? is bee queen too easy for walter? because apparently walter still needs a buff according to your suggestion. is walter too good? then why does he need a buff? is the slow-down round setup too overpowered? then why are other characters able to fight bee queen faster and safer than water with no criticism? i'm confused

here's my attempts at fighting bee queen (start at 54:52), which is essentially a no-hit fight. you must not make a mistake, or is able to react to your mistake. that's not something everyone can do, not even the majority of DST players. while other characters can finish the fight faster with less pressure.

 

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

so it actually takes more involvement and more effort for walter to kill bee queen than for any other character to facetank and win.

It's quite strange to see you doing what you were angry with.

Or make it detailed to tell use why Walter is harder to kill BQ than Wilson "to facetank and win"

Have you ever tried to kill BQ with Wilson or non-transformed Woodie by melee and no cheese?

Just now, _mylilsunshine_ said:

if you think currently bee queen is a a joke and walter walks over her, then nerfing the slow-down round should make everything fair, right? so why is there a need to buff walter/woby then? wouldn't the nerf and buff bring everything back to being a cake walk? let me visualize it then

Stop twisting my word. This helps nothing to discussion. Only makes your other words below is meaningless for reading.

Walter's balance problem need to be FIX. FIX means not NERF.

[YouKnowWho142]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

It's quite strange to see you doing what you were angry with.

Or make it detailed to tell use why Walter is harder to kill BQ than Wilson "to facetank and win"

Have you ever tried to kill BQ with Wilson or non-transformed Woodie by melee and no cheese?

Stop twisting my word. This helps nothing to discussion. Only makes your other words below is meaningless for reading.

Walter's balance problem need to be FIX. FIX means not NERF.

You're arguing for the sake of arguing. If you don't intend on listening to anyone then please stop.

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

here's my attempts at fighting bee queen (start at 54:52), which is essentially a no-hit fight. you must not make a mistake, or is able to react to your mistake. that's not something everyone can do, not even the majority of DST players. while other characters can finish the fight faster with less pressure.

Again, according to some other's criticize, "Steorra is lack of Walter's knowledge & experiences". But even I have few experiences of Walter, the Bee Queen is still a punchbag for me in the video.

How could a boss which is concretizing of Walter's main downside nightmare being such easy for him? Even a player who is completely a newcomers of Walter could easily to kill Bee Queen in such way.

I have to say I learnt to kill BQ by using Walter in this way which showed in my video was only after tries lesser than 5 times. It's a same EZ level as Maxwell.

4 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

You're arguing for the sake of arguing. If you don't intend on listening to anyone then please stop.

You may report me if you think my argument is off topic or break the guideline.

It's just the most efficiency way to point out the paradox in your own logic when you gave a wrong argument.

And I do give topic-relatived argument after point out your own logic problem.

Stop expose your own emotion to a public discussion. That helps not to EVERY one or EVERY argument here.

[_mylilsunshine_]

10 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Stop twisting my word. This helps nothing to discussion. Only makes your other words below is meaningless for reading.

Walter's balance problem need to be FIX. FIX means not NERF.

how should the devs fix a problem? is it by buffing or nerfing something?

because it is your words, not mine, literally

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

I edit here for adding 2 potential options to fix this issue:

1. Nerf the purple gem slowing rounds, at the same time, give a accelaration buff to Woby while riding for helping Walter to dodge grumble bees; give an extra skill for Woby to make she could tolerate you to get 2 extra hits before Woby drop you down.

2. Buff grumble bees' pursuit distance - to ensure they would not back to BQ but just pursuit you continuously once you leave BQ a bit far.

so tell me, why do you feel like other people are personally attacking you? because this victim mentality is exactly what is doing nothing for the discussion, and it makes you ignorant ("Only makes your other words below is meaningless for reading.")

if you want to have a discussion, you need to make a point. what is the problem with walter and/or bee queen? what is the problem with slow-down round?

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

You're arguing for the sake of arguing. If you don't intend on listening to anyone then please stop.

So, after a try for leading the discussion off topic, where's the evidence to prove "so it actually takes more involvement and more effort for walter to kill bee queen than for any other character to facetank and win."?

Just now, _mylilsunshine_ said:

how should the devs fix a problem? is it by buffing or nerfing something?

Adjusting and fixing means necessary buff and necessary nerf and necessary rework. I have never imagined that I have to explain such things here. 

10 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

then nerfing the slow-down round should make everything fair, right?

This is NOT my whole word. 

3 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

if you want to have a discussion, you need to make a point. what is the problem with walter and/or bee queen? what is the problem with slow-down round?

I DO already gave these but it's just you continuously ignoring them. I won't wasting my time when someone pretend to see no truth.

3 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

are personally attacking you?

Again, twisting my word lol.

Personally thing means not "Pensonally attacking".

[YouKnowWho142]

5 minutes ago, Steorra said:

So, after a try for leading the discussion off topic, where's the evidence to prove "so it actually takes more involvement and more effort for walter to kill bee queen than for any other character to facetank and win."?

Look, I really don't want to start something with you. Regardless of what I say you're going to try and argue otherwise, this isn't a debate worth having since despite what everybody in this topic has said you have refused to listen or acknowledge any of it. I think what makes a debate worth having is an open mind, but you seem quite convinced on this. I really hope you get lots of rest and some quality time away from the forums, I think it's melting everyone's mind a little

I don't think anything more can be said in this topic without going back into a circle

[Edible Coal]

im losing braincell to these post everyday