Wes Skill Tree Concept

[Pruinae]

1 hour ago, Armonia said:

One minor question that I don't know if it's been asked yet: what happens if there's two or more Wes(es?) with the same tragedy perks? Do they both get the bad parts, does it cancel out to average odds, or does it negate the downside entirely?

That's an amazing question, and I believe it is not as minor as it seems at first glance.
I did think of the ramifications of it, but ultimately decided against putting it in the concept, as my priority was putting the base of the ideas out there.

We know Wes has been unlucky his whole life, but don't know what causes it. Did his parents demolish a mirror maze, and he inherited their bad juju? Is there an eldritch entity that likes pranking him? Or is he just built different? Knowing that could influence those interactions. In the entity theory for example, the entity might make sure all Wes(es? Wesii? xD A meme of mimes?) are always affected by the misfortune of its influence, while if it is just a bad juju mime aura, it might all just equalize and cancel each other out.

Well, even without knowing that, here's what I think would happen:

Spoiler

● Mime, Body and Soul; Evil Eye; Hapless Hunter; Poisson D'Avril
Only the player that has the perk is affected by its effects. I am not 100% sure how ocean spawns work, but I assume it works similarly to birds and butterflies, every player has its own chance of spawning them and don't influence one another, so the negative effects from "Poisson D'Avril" for randomized fish, and extra chance of spawning Rockjaw and Gnarwail only influences the spawns caused due to a Wes with the perk.

Pirate Raids however, I have no idea how they work in multiple scenarios as is, like, if there are multiple boats surrounding the adequate range around Moon Quay, which one is chosen to be raided? Does each have its own chance to spawn a different Pirate Raid? I would have to know that to guess how the perk could work xD 

● Dramaturgy
The speed boost and sanity going to the player that spawned the creature is not affected by multiple Weses. Multiple Wesii with the perk don't influence each other Shadow Creatures aggro.

● Magnetic Personality
For Lightning Strikes and Meteors, each Wes gets his turn (because I think that's hilarious). The game will keep track of who's turn it is and redirect the threat accordingly.
Multiple Weses with the perk have no influence over one another debris. Antlion will treat the Wesii with the perk as the only players on the server.

● Clown to Earth
The perk won't consider a Wes with the perk as "another player" for the purposes of the perk. So all Weses get the negative effects; All will have the 80% Forget-Me-Lots chance, and won't influence the results of a grave from another.

● Clown Jewels
The perk won't consider a Wes with the perk as "another player" for the purposes of the perk. So all Weses get the negative effects. Maybe Klaus' Loot Stash chance to give a Krampus Sack is doubled for every Wes with the perk available, as long as it is another character opening it? So 20%/40%/80%/100%, guaranteeing a Krampus Sack if there are 4 Wesii with the perk, as long as another player without the perk in the one opening it.

● No Dice
The perk won't consider a Wes with the perk as "another player" for the purposes of the perk. So all Weses get the negative effects. Maybe for every extra Wes with the perk the positive rerolls happen an extra time for players without the perk?

● Target Audience
The perk won't consider a Wes with the perk as "another player" for the purposes of the perk. So they can't redirect each other waves. Bosses will treat the Wesii with the perk as the only players in the server and pick accordingly. If there are only Weses with this perk on the server, time between Hounds that are spawned in the same wave is reduced.

This also raises the question "If he is meant to always be unlucky, should he ever be considered "another character" and benefit from the positives of a luck perk?". Lore-wise, it would make sense. But I think gameplay-wise it is way more interesting to let Wes benefit from luck perks from another Wes if he doesn't have the perk, this grants variety, allowing multiple Weses to have the opportunity to work together to get the most out of his skill tree. 

How often this would all come into play could also influence the answer to that question, we don't know how popular he would be after a skill tree like this. If he is not popular, then not letting him benefit from luck perks won't make that much of a difference, but that in itself could make a difference in how popular he is lol

[gaymime]

3 hours ago, Pruinae said:

You might be right, and a skill tree like this might have no meaningful impact in making people consider playing as Wes, based on the pattern we can see within the player base.

But would making Wes a character more in line with the others also make any impact?

sweats. that is the crux of it though, isn't it? you are pretty much on the money. at best i could see him being played like a walter or a warly if the tree is good and like a wanda or a wicker if the tree is amazing and none of these chars clear a few hundred players at a given time on their best days in a game that has thousands of players even at its lowest-traffic times. mostly this would be for completion's sake and for us who already play him. the uptick in users likely wouldnt be enough to justify the labour of doing the work.

at the same time though even with this dour thought i still have some hope that whatever happens with the lad there will be some people who are going to consider him as playable and that endears me to the idea even if i am nervous about changes i cannot personally fathom

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I believe that besides how "chill" the character is to play as, another huge factor is character relatability, while of course not impossible (his "just a little guy" vibes are immaculate), it is a lot more difficult to relate to Wes because he has no quotes, except the ones hidden in the files for his stage play. Maybe Klei could make a set of like 30 reactions and set them to each and every entity in the game (sounds like a lot more work than just writing lines, but still), to let us understand a bit more what he thinks of everything around him, instead of just always being random (as it is now, it makes it seems like he changes his mind about something every time he examines it). Would even that be enough? I don't know. All I can say is what I think.

yeah, so unique actions is actually something that i have personally been desiring for a long time and i am not the only one i think. people get excited for new and novel things and there are small excited flutterings here and there when wes gets(or could get) something new in his mimery. my concern again is that this would be more labour than someone looking at the money would consider worth it. i have noticed even the art streams have greatly slowed down on wes pieces even though for a few years there he seemed pretty popular on the devs side. he is still a favoured survivour in the animations which helps flesh out his character but less so in the streams and i want to say less so in the other media reps(winona is making more stride forwards i have seen but also she is related to charlie so that is reasonable). the issue is though not everyone looks at the supplemental material which is where almost all of his character development and expression comes from(i still surprise people when i talk about how brave wes is because i have seen lots of dev art of him being brave but most people dont even know there IS dev art let alone a fat stack of it).

 

in an ideal world where money is not the most difficult hurdle i could see wes getting bespoke animations and special interactions and gameplay that is engaging and people would definitely play him(though to a lesser degree than the most popular chars for sure) but in a pragmatic world i see him getting short-changed because he already started off so far behind the others when dst came out and hasn't made too much ground since then

 

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So I don't think taking away his identity of "challenge", "joke" (WES IS NO JOKE TO ME >:(), "silly" character is the way to go, because that is always what he has been represented as. You might disagree, and that's completely fine, we are on the forums so we can give feedback on what we would like for the game, after all.

well no, he serves a function even if this style of game(multipyaer-coop) is not suited for it. in solo he was exactly what it says on the tin and was nearly ideal for it(i must confess i give him a weaker hit and a flat 75 across the board but i also remove the increased hunger to suit him to my idea of a "fun" challenge)

i do agree taking away his "joke" status would be a shame and no good. the levity is actually pleasant to have and it gives the devs a space to do silly things if they want to.

 

i also want him to stay a challenge character. when i play anyone else the game gets really flat and i find myself playing like i used to in diablo where i just wanna make number go up because i am bored of living in the moment. playing as this character gives me ample encouragement to try things that the game has available to me that are not face-tanking and face-tanking+healing. i /enjoyed/ collecting like 30 treeguards to crush krampus like sand under an oncoming tide, i don't like hambatting him while scarfing hot+cold foods....that being said this is not a commonly shared sentiment. people like the option to do both but trend towards the faster simpler solution. i am not sure how to keep wes' core playstyle within the parameters of this desire to do more, better, faster and do it with the same amount(or less) effort. just look at the wendy thing and prior to that woodie

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If you think my concept wouldn't have an impact, what instead do you think would?

yeaaah, you are cleverer than i am and actually have ideas. i mostly just have worries which is not helpful. at best i could refine your suggestions to be more in-line with his actual play for newbies and middling players but i lack a lot of the creativity needed to come up with anything whole-cloth. it is why i don't make one of these; i would not be able to make anything very clever or unique or even that interesting

 

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Swiyss said:

We don't NEED to make people play Wes. We need to make the people who already play Wes feel comfortable around the skill tree.

if this was a completed game i would agree but this is a multiplayer coop. unfortunately.

 

for sure i have no idea what would make a wes player feel more comfortable. i have talked to vets that have complained he was slow at autochop so they manually chop and i have talked to newbies who thought he was cute but couldn’t survive as him even with my help and i see so few wes in the wild that i only ever get as far as the spiderman meme before they are gone again

 

i did post a poll though because that would give people who play him a place to talk if they so wanted

[raniskog]

On 1/16/2025 at 9:04 PM, Pruinae said:

Hello, this is my take on the Wes skill tree.

Wes is in a weird spot, where some people see him as a challenge character, while others don't really think it is as much of as challenge as it is an inconvenience. As I see it, an experienced player won't really be challenged that much from a 0.75 damage multiplier or a -25% work efficacy debuff, it will just make it take longer to kill things and collect resources. The 75 in all stats at least makes for a more interesting challenge, making so you have to think about which food to make, due to foods that grant 75+ hunger not being as efficient.

Regarding his upsides: Regular Balloons are too bothersome to use as anything but decor; Speedy Balloons do their job well, but due to their low durability, some might find them too laborious to use; Party Balloons can be nice for group sanity, but playing with experienced players they would rather kill the creatures than stand still, and inexperienced ones are better off with flowers and a tent; if you are prepared enough to have an Inflatable Vest when you need it, you should have prepared another boat instead; and Balloon Hat is at least usable, but very very niche. His 25% tool efficiency is very interesting for something that was a byproduct of his reduced work efficacy.

Of course, his upsides being basically nonexistent is by design. But should Wes really be the joke character? I personally would prefer to have another character to actually play as.

Taking into consideration both the players that see him as a challenge character, and the players that like Wes for being Wes, I envisioned this skill tree.



The background was inspired by the fence Wes is seen performing in front of, in his short, along with the Tragedy and Comedy masks that represent the performing arts. The tree offers a lot of freedom of choice right away, without having any perks that are requisites for another, with the exception of the Affinity ones. This was made on purpose to allow the player to customize their experience depending on how much of a challenge they want.

The left ones forming the frowning face are the "Tragedy" perks, the right ones forming the smiling face are the "Comedy" perks, and in the middle we have the "Affinity" perks. To level a Comedy perk you require an insight point and a coin. Wes starts with one coin (because he is Wes), and he can get more by leveling Tragedy perks.

Affinity perks don't cost coins, only insight; And — unlike other characters — you can level the Affinity perks right away, without having to spend points on the rest of the tree to unlock. The regular "choose a side" and "kill the boss" shenanigans still apply.

If you choose to spend an insight point and your starting coin to level a Comedy perk right away, this is what you would see:

You would have to level a Tragedy perk in order to get more coins to spend on the Comedy ones.

Tragedy
I tried making perks that provide a challenge to the solo player, while benefiting a multiplayer setting. To me it seems contradictory to play a challenge character while collaborating with other people, as doing so makes that content exponentially easier. This approach also expands on what we saw on his animated short, having a "misfortune that brings fortune to others" theme. Perks that redirect threats, and perks that alter luck-based outcomes require Wes to be alive to remain active.

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● Mime, Body and Soul
"Become immune to the health penalty. However, you can only be revived with the help of other survivors, the portal and touch stones. When another survivor revives you they get an extra 40 sanity."

Disables most revival methods, if you're playing solo you can only revive through the four naturally spawning touch stones. When playing with other players, you can do the same thing Wanda can do: Craft a telltale heart, die on purpose, and then let someone else revive you so they get 80 sanity (120 with this perk).

It is very much the "turn on hardcore mode" perk. Being able to revive through the portal is still allowed, because if you turn endless ON you're probably not looking for this kind of challenge anyway, so its nice to have the bonus of being immune to the health penalty in that case.

Should Touch Stones be replaced with Life Giving Amulets? This would make the perk be more punishing with early game deaths, but after you amass Life Giving amulets its punishment would diminish considerably, at which point you are probably in a stage of the game where the challenges provided have been diminished by progression anyway.


● Evil Eye
"A series of mishaps made the creatures of the constant wary of you. Creatures that are usually neutral now turn aggressive, and critters won't show themselves. Finding food while hunting them is far-fetched."

Birds and Butterflies won't spawn if a Wes with this perk is the source; Catcoons, Merms (except when king alive), Pigs, Bunnymen, and Beefalo are aggressive; Beefalos will buck you off instantly when you try to ride them; Pigs Wes kills will always drop Pig Skin, Bunnymen Bunny Puff, Spiders Silk (unless haunted), and Birds their Feather; Maximum chase time and range increased by 33% (Doesn't stack with Spring, but maybe it should); Wes' naughtiness threshold is always 31 (the lowest possible).

So, a summary: No healing from Butterflies, getting a Bird for a Bird Cage is a lot more difficult, breaking Pig Houses early on isn't as easy anymore, no Beefalo domestication, Krampus are more common, and all the weird range interactions with aggro range spring brings are always active.

However, you don't need to transform Pigs into Werepigs to guarantee the Pig Skin, always getting Silk has its upsides, and if you manage to get a Bird you will always get the feather. Can be relevant along with a Wickerbottom using Birds of the World to manually Krampus farm, since you spawn Krampus faster, and get a lot more feathers.


● Hapless Hunter
"Suspicious dirt piles you uncover are a lot more likely to lead to threats."

Increases the chances for a hunt surprise to 80%, regardless of the world's age.
Getting the vests is more difficulty, but making a War Saddle, and/or a Varg farm early is a lot easier.

While I think that is enough, a factor that could make this perk more undesirable is making so a Wes with this perk can find the Gingerbread Varg or Clay Varg even outside of events.


● Poisson D'Avril
"Its as if the Ocean is playing a prank on you. Increased chance to find threats when out at sea, fishes always have minimum weight and are randomized, and being wet makes everything incredibly slippery."

Fishes spawning due to a Wes with this perk will always be completely randomized, being able to spawn even out of place, season or events, and they will always have minimum weight. Rockjaw chance is increased to 20%. Gnarwail chance is increased to 20%. Pirate Raid odds increased to 40%. Tools on Wes hands are guaranteed to slip when he is Wet starting from 35 Wetness.

Bad if you want to explore the Ocean or go fishing for specific fish, good if you want Gnarwail and Pirate Raid loot. You get less Bootlegs since the Deep Bass will never be heavy. You might be able to get a Wurt an early Sunfish and/or Ice Bream. The perk still affects you outside the Ocean due to the being wet part.


● Dramaturgy
"Embrace the drama and let out your performative side: Getting hit provokes a dramatic performance, spurring nearby survivors into action. However, your melancholic acting makes shadows more eager to oppress you. Empathize with nearby survivors afflicted with insanity."

When hit realize a dramatic performance that makes other survivors nearby receive a 20% speed boost. Crawling Horrors that would spawn due to Wes' insanity are replaced by Terror Beaks. When someone is insane near Wes, the Shadow Creatures will go for Wes after doing their screech (similar to his innate perk with Hounds after barking), regardless of if Wes is at full sanity. If Wes kills someone else's Shadow Creature, the sanity goes to the person that made it spawn instead of Wes. 

One of the few things that can actually threaten an experienced player are situations where two Terror Beaks are involved, this perk would make those situations come into play a lot more often. There has been a lot of times where I wanted to help someone kill their Shadow Creatures, but instead I would just end up stealing the sanity gain from killing one. This perk would solve that issue.


● Magnetic Personality
"Natural phenomena such as lightning, meteors, and earthquakes seem to have a vendetta against you."

Lightning strikes spawned on the overworld will always go for Wes if he is on the shard. Surrounding Meteors target Wes directly. Falling debris in the cavern that are supposed to spawn within other survivors close proximity spawn on Wes instead if he is on the shard. All of the debris that is supposed to spawn on Wes' surroundings always spawn in his close surroundings. Antlion will always target Wes (and only Wes). Lightning spawned from Wickerbottom's The End is Nigh!, and the special lightning spawned from the Moonstorm will not be redirected by this perk.

Very "animated short"-like. Can be used to your advantage, you could use the Meteors focused on you to kill the nearby Tallbirds for example.


● Clown to Earth
"Embrace your misfortune in matters of the earth. Your interactions with nature and graves are more likely to be negative. In turn, allies' are more likely to be positive."

If grass geckos are able to spawn, they will. Same chance to spawn Treeguards as Woodie, and will always spawn the maximum amount regardless of the world's age. When planting with random seeds, chance to get forget-me-lots increased to 80%; But other survivors planting random seeds will never get weeds (this effect is global). Graves dug by Wes always give trinkets and spawn a ghost. However, if Wes is near but another character is the one digging the grave, a ghost will spawn aggroed onto Wes and the grave will never give trinkets, only the other loot.

I decided to include grass geckos due to their jump scare nature, the regular chance is low but every character can get it easily with the shovel method, so Wes being guaranteed is not that big of a deal. Tree guards for living logs is good, but three at the same time with a 0.75 damage modifier can complicate things. Greater Forget-Me-Lots chance makes starting a farm more difficult, however the perk can make this the opposite when other players are present, and can be a good thing if you actually want the Forget-Me-Lots. You get to manipulate grave loot with the help of other players.

Is always spawning the maximum amount of tree guards too much?

Credits to @Swiyss, who has given a suggestion similar to this in another post.


● Clown Jewels
"Embrace your misfortune when dealing with treasure troves. Treasure-based interactions are unlikely to wield you good results, but allies' odds are improved."

The part that impacts other players has global range, unless stated otherwise.
○ Sunken Chests opened by Wes will have its treasure always grant the least quantity of items per stack possible, but ones opened by another survivor will always have the most.
○ Tumbleweeds opened by Wes can only contain grass, twigs, and creatures. Tumbleweeds opened by another survivor while Wes is near will never contain grass and twigs, and if creatures spawn from that tumbleweed, they spawn aggro'd on Wes.
○ Loot Stash opened by Wes will never contain the % drops. But ones opened by another survivor have 20% chance for Krampus sack, guaranteed extra Life Giving Amulet, and guaranteed extra boss loot.
○ Ancient Guardians killed while only Wes is nearby will have its treasure always grant the least quantity of items per stack possible. But one killed while another survivor is present will always have the most.
○ Labyrinth Chests opened by Wes always activate their trap and have the lowest possible modifier, while for other survivors the trap always proccs but with the highest possible modifier.

Bad if solo, great if with other players. Maybe the effect should affect what items can be found in the chests, instead of only stack quantity?


● No Dice
"Embrace your misfortune when dealing with opposition. Enemies you kill are less likely to drop especial loot, while enemies killed by allies have their odds enhanced."

If an enemy last hit by Wes has a % drop and it succeeds, it is rerolled and the new result persists. The opposite is true for other survivors, if the % drop fails it is rerolled and the new result persists. This effect is global.

Some of the % loot that comes to mind: Message in a Bottle, Tam o' Shanter, Walrus Tusk, Krampus Sack, Butter, Bat Wing. But there are a lot more.

Alternatively, the perk could make so Wes is never able to drop the % loot. This would challenge solo Wes' with this perk to adapt into a gameplay style without access to those drops. I personally think that might be too harsh, this might already be the perk with the biggest negative of the Tragedy branch.

Would be really cool if the loot-related perks had a little animation like a four leaf clover shining when something was rerolled into a success, or a four leaf clover decaying when something was rerolled into failure.


● Target Audience
"Enemies that attack periodically seem to have a vendetta against you."

○ When Hound/Worm waves occur, if a Wes with this perk is on the shard Wes will get the waves of up to three other survivors, and if it is a Great Depths Worm it will be guaranteed to go for Wes. All of the hounds redirected this way are special Hounds.
○ Varglets are unable to spawn for Wes, being replaced with 5 special Hounds.
○ Every Hound that spawns for Wes is always a special Hound.
○ If Wes is alone on a server, time between Hounds that are spawned in the same wave is reduced.
○ Eye of Terror/Twins of Terror will always choose to go for Wes.
○ 50% of the Frogs from Frog Rain meant for other survivors are redirected to Wes instead.
○ Bearger and Deerclops will always choose to go for Wes.

If you're solo, all of the redirection doesn't affect you. Can be extremely helpful while playing with beginners. Having all hounds be replaced with special Hounds can make killing them a little more complicated, but they have less HP and you get gems for your effort.

Comedy
My objective in this branch was to strengthen Wes current upsides into things that you would actually want to use, and to give him more engaging gameplay aspects.

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● Expert Haggler
"Use your mime charm to obtain good deals when trading."

○ Queen of Moon Quay removes 6 trinkets instead of 4 when given a banana.
○ Pig King grants 1.5x more gold.
○ Receive a 50% discount in the Prize Booth and Benevolent Rabbit King crafts.
○ Frost Jaw will give 2 bootlegs per small fish and 3 per heavy fish.
○ Antlion gives 2 desert stones instead of one.
○ Crabby Hermit trades that cost one bottle give two items instead of one, the ones that cost more have a 50% discount rounded up in favor of Pearl (Penny-pinching!).

This one is based on his sequence-breaking The Gorge perk. I was so happy when Wes was meta!


● Living Statue
"After standing still for 3 seconds, perform as a living statue, escaping hostile creatures' perception. "

After standing still for 3 seconds, drop enemy aggro and get a hiding state similar to Bush Hat's/Snurtle Shell. Taking damage resets the timer, but won't cancel hiding (it is a incredibly believable performance!).

Can be very powerful, especially if used in tandem with some Tragedy perks. I think the overall silliness, and the street performance vibe fits Wes incredibly well.


● Pantomimed Rope
"Pantomime a rope to pull items towards you."

Allows Wes to pull items on the screen towards him, this allows him to pull items out of the Ocean, through walls, and out of Cave Holes. To use the perk, right click an item that is on the ground/water while having nothing equipped in your hand slot.

I don't know how the controls would work on controller, they really need the shipwrecked aim system lol. To circumvent this, maybe instead Wes can craft pantomimed rope and then use this new item to pull things. Equip it and use the secondary action button so Wes starts the lasso throw animation, the lasso goes ahead in the air towards the direction you are facing. You can make it fall down on top of an item by pressing the secondary action again, at which point Wes would pull the item automatically. But I really would like to avoid this route, as having to use an empty inventory slot for pantomimed things is too hilarious not to be a thing. 

Credits to @gaymime, who has given the foundation for this perk idea in another post.


● Pantomimed Tools
"Pantomime tools to collect resources."

While having an empty hand slot, you are able to chop, mine, hammer, and dig the respective resources.

This perk makes way too much sense not to be a thing. Extremely useful in the ruins, never have to walk half a map back to base because you forgot to bring a hammer to Bee Queen. Save resources on tools. Considering Wes gets the 25% work penalty, I think him getting access to this is only fair.


● Pantomimed Walls
"Learn to pantomime walls and doors."

This perk gives you the ability to craft Pantomimed Walls and Pantomimed Doors. At the cost of 10 sanity you can craft 4 walls or a door. They look like clear fine glass, and function similarly to fences and gates, but unlike fences they break in one hit and drop nothing. Dropping the unplaced wall/door version of the item makes it disappear instantly. They are fire-proof.

Wes' with this perk are able to see Pantomimed Walls and Doors regardless of distance, while ones without the perk — and other characters — only get to see these structures while they are within 2 walls of distance.

Very useful and very cheap, useful in any situation walls are. 


● Real-Mime Strategy
"Pantomime a barrier capable of parrying damage."

While having an empty hand slot, use your secondary action button on the ground (Wortox Soul Hop button on controller) to initiate a very brief parry. Missing a parry puts it into a X seconds cooldown. Successful parries can be animation cancelled into another parry.

I don't have numbers for this, but the general idea is being able to — with precise timing — parry attacks to reflect damage back to the attacker. I'd like it to have a duration short enough to make it difficult. With the animation cancelling, doing successful parries into other parries to block multi-hit attacks such as the ones coming from Tentacles, Armored Bearger, or the Celestial Champion second phase, would be possible and look really cool.

Probably not a perk you want to use on high latency, but there's plenty of other perk options for those situations.


● Balloon Glasses
"Learn to craft the Balloon Glasses. Lend it to allies to share your imagination, or use it yourself to enhance your vision!"

Costs 5 sanity to craft. 1 Day Durability. Getting hit with the glasses equipped makes them pop.
Can be equipped in the head slot to allow other survivors to see Wes' pantomimed structures regardless of distance, and allow a Wes with this perk to see and interact with hidden things, such as Shadow Creatures even when at full sanity, what item is a Mimic, Resting Horror, Rictus, Parasitic Shadelings, and Fuelweaver's Shadow Hands.

Allows you to kill Shadow Creatures before insanity becomes a problem, simplifies Mimic farming, no more having to get insane to get the Relic Chair blueprint, no need to have AoE to deal with Rictus, no need to drop sanity before the Nightmare Werepig fight, and can act as a Walmart Purple Amulet during the Fuelweaver fight. Well, at least as long as you don't let it pop, even then you could craft another one.

Credits to @Swiyss, who has given a suggestion similar to this in another post.


● Loud Balloons
"Your balloons scare enemies when popped. Learn to craft the Whistle Balloon, a balloon that annoys enemies into attacking the holder."

Any balloon when popped scares enemies in a turf radius for 3 seconds.

Learn to craft the Whistle Balloon. 5 sanity to craft. Lasts for half a day. If the holder is hit with it equipped, it pops.
Can be equipped in the hand slot to emit a whistle balloon sound (REALLY recommend the "Noisy Balloons" video on Youtube from the Grand Illusions channel if you are interested on what it could sound like lol, maybe not as obnoxious though), and pull the aggro from enemies within 3 turfs to the user.

Provides some crowd control to Wes. The whistle can be used to save someone or to save Wes himself, if used by others.

Credits to @Swiyss, who has given a suggestion similar to this in another post.


● Bundle o' Balloons
"Learn to craft the Bundle o' Balloons, it has enough balloons to make the holder float!"

Costs 30 sanity to craft. Lasts for 1 minute. Getting hit with it equipped pops the balloons.
Can be equipped in the hand slot to allow the holder to traverse the Ocean and the Cave Void. The holder cannot interact with the game world while it is equipped (collecting Kelp as an example). If dropped on the ground, the balloons disperse on the air and show up in the map, similar to the Speedy Balloon's current effect. Only one is allowed per inventory, if Wes tries to give it to someone already in the possession of one, he will do his "no no" mime animation. If Wes crafts one while already having one in the inventory, the Bundle o' Balloons will be dropped on the ground and disperse into the air as previously stated. If the bundle is popped, or its durability reaches 0 while the holder is above Ocean or Cave Void, they fall and the usual punishment is applied.

Has synergy with Inflatable Vest, if your Bundle o' Balloons ends while you are above the Ocean the vest will prevent health penalty from being applied.


● Breathing Technique
"Your balloons are more efficient and bring no harm to allies."

○ Regular Balloons deal 15 piercing damage.
○ Speedy Balloons last 3x longer. (Currently 1.5 segments for each 30%/20%/10% bonus, with the perk the balloon would last for 13.5 segments, nearly a day.)
○ Party Balloons deal 10 piercing damage and the confetti effect can now stack.
○ Inflatable Vest prevents dropping items on the water when drowning, working similarly to Wurt's swimming perk.
○ Balloon Hat no longer has durability.
○ Balloon Glasses no longer have durability.
○ Whistle Balloons last 2x longer (a day).
○ Bundle o' Balloons last 2x longer (2 minutes).
○ Balloons now cannot damage other survivors or loyal mobs.

Piercing damage can go through armor such as Slurtle/Snurtle's defenses. The enhanced damage with the added piercing effect makes the disabled friendly fire necessary, should Wes also be able to avoid the Balloons damage? Maybe the Party Balloons become overpowered being able to stack...

Credits to @Swiyss, who has given a suggestion similar to this in another post.

Affinity
Shadow

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● Shadow Jester I
"The Queen will reward your loyalty by revealing secrets within the Umbralla. The Umbralla's barrier slows enemies within, provides protection against the weather, and can be activated even while held."

Umbralla's barriers activated by Wes' with this perk — beyond its usual effects — will also provide 240 insulation against both heat and cold, slow enemies in its range for 20%, and impede debris from cave earthquakes from falling within. Additionally, Wes can choose to activate the barrier while holding the Umbralla; the barrier will move along with him.

Keep in mind the sanity drain aura while the barrier is active. Should the barrier's range be reduced if it is activated while the Umbralla is being held? What brought me to this perk idea was Umbralla kind of looking like a balloon while the barrier is active, and Wes having a little umbrella in his default art.


● Shadow Jester II
"The Queen will reward your loyalty by adding flare to your performance on her stage."

When performing in Charlie's stage, an illusion is applied to Wes giving him the same appearance and max stats (Hunger/Sanity/Health) as another player currently online on the server. Wes' current stats % is equivalent to what it was before, and usual nametag still remains. The illusion lasts indefinitely and can block up to one hit, but will be dispelled after. When examining stuff Wes will still do his usual mimicry with no quotes. If there are no other players, then a random character is selected wearing the skins you have set. If transformed into Wurt, Webber, WX or Wortox, you get their tags. Both the items and briar hounds won't spawn, but the stage also won't enter cooldown.

Allows Wes to benefit from 150 hunger food, and to access the advantages of having more than 75 sanity. The same can't be said for health, since the illusion is dispelled upon being hit. I guess you could tank starvation and the weather for longer since those don't count as being hit? Slight synergy with WX, although no one uses the hunger or sanity circuits. An extra hit can make a big difference depending on your perk setup.

Moon

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● Lunar Jester I
"Take inspiration from The Moon to learn how to turn Brightshade Bombs into Balloons that inflict tremendous planar damage upon bursting. While holding Brightshade Balloons, Wes becomes enlightened."

Takes a Brightshade Bomb and 5 sanity to craft.
Works the same as his regular balloons, but has same damage and properties as the Brightshade Bombs. Maybe could deal ~50 extra damage and/or have extra range?

Getting access to enlightenment can allow Wes to avoid Shadow Creatures and restore sanity through Gestalts, but keep in mind that it takes up the hand slot and is only available after rifts.


● Lunar Jester II
"Listen to Their voice to discover secrets within the dream realm. While asleep, assume control of an Astral Projection."

When asleep by any means, assume control of your Jestalt. This form has its own 15 slots inventory, can see in the dark, but cannot equip items. It can use all Pantomimic skills as long as they are leveled. When the Jestalt is dispelled, its items will drop and Wes is sent back to his body. The Jestalt is dispelled if hit or if Wes' body is hit, dies or wakes up. The form can be dispelled early by the user by clicking a button similar to the one that appears when reviving using a Meat Effigy. Wes will remain sleeping even after reaching 0 hunger, however the health restauration from sleeping is nullified and he takes starvation damage as normal; this means he would be able to be Jestalt for 2 minutes and 15 seconds, since starving deals 1.25 damage per second. The Jestalt attacks the same way as Gestalts (should it get i-frames on attack? probably not). Effects that induce sleep have its duration overridden to last indefinitely, and can be cut short earlier than usual by dispelling Jestalt through the button.

Should Jestalt be able to hover above the Ocean and Cave Void?

I will be honest, I could not resist the Jestalt pun. But hey, the skill is pretty cool, don't you think?

Secrets

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Well, a font size 22 in bold isn't really secretive now, is it?

The idea behind these perks is to allow the player to fully commit to one of two identities Wes can have. He is a very talented performer, I am sure he could perform the "Challenge Character" role as easily as he can the "Cute Mime" role.

Let's start with the Joker perk.

This perk appears once the player has leveled all of the Tragedy branch perks.

A Shadow Hand comes and replaces the coin with a perk the player can choose to level.


● Joker
"All of your damage becomes planar. Successful parries now reflect extra planar damage. Become Immune to overheating and freezing. Become unable to benefit from planar defense, and armor is 50% less effective."

Having all your damage become planar works around Wes' 0.75 damage multiplier. The extra planar damage from parries should have very noticeable numbers considering the weakening of armor.

Taking into account you would need to spend 11 points total for this perk (10 from Tragedy + 1 for the perk itself), and have to deal with every Tragedy perk negatives, I think it is only fair for you to get something really cool from it. Especially considering the perk itself adds tremendous additional difficulty through the weakening of armor.

You can still use the remaining 4 insight points to level any Comedy and/or Affinity perks as you wish, even though you won't see the coin anymore.

Credits to @Swiyss, who has given a suggestion similar to this in another post.
_____

Now let us talk about the Le Jour des Crêpes perk.

This perk activates once at least 7 (lucky number!) Comedy perks have been invested in.

The coin shines and a perk icon is revealed within its surface! This works similarly to Wortox's Nice/Naughty alignment, in the sense that you don't need to spend insight to get its effects.


● Le Jour des Crêpes
"Eating Fresh Fruit Crepes allows you to benefit from your luck-based perks for a day."

Eating Fresh Fruit Crepes makes the perks "Clown to Earth", "Clown Jewels", and "No Dice" treat you as if your were another player for a day.

If you made sure to get at least 7 comedy perks, I believe you do not wish to play Wes as a challenge character, so you get access to this freebie. Inspired by the French tradition that takes place in "Le Jour des Crêpes", it involves placing a coin on top of a cooking crêpe while flipping it, ensuring financial prosperity in the coming year. Others hold a coin in their right hand during the flipping process for good luck.

It is mostly here to allow solo players to benefit from his luck perks. But the justice of making Wes' favorite food actually useful for him is also sweet. Maybe the benefits should be extended to every butter crockpot food? He is French after all.

Just noticed that in the example none of those perks have been invested in lol, get uhhh- January's fooled I guess?

Conclusion
I hope this concept would be able to allow the player to customize Wes into having their desired gameplay experience. He is a mime artist after all, being able to mime his way into the role you want him to be is only right.

Let me know your feedback, did you find something that would impede Wes from progressing in the game? Do you think something suggested would be too overpowered? You are welcome to express your opinions and concerns below.

If I forgor to/just didn't give credit to you, and you want said credits, please let me know (with proof preferably). I can also remove credits I gave you, if it bothers you in any way, no problem.

Edit History

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This is here to help me keep track of the changes, feel free to skip it.

1/18/2025 
A thank you to @Swiyss, who made me reflect on the effects of a lot of the perks and pointed out some edge cases where exceptions to the functionality of some should be made. And a thank you to @NekoSoulx, who pointed out how I should clarify Wes should be alive for the perks to work, and that luck perks should be global, because otherwise they would take away from the Wes' player gameplay.

● Changed "Speedy Balloons durability is too short to give substantial benefit" into "Speedy Balloons do their job well, but due to their low durability, some might find them too laborious to use"
● Added "Perks that redirect threats, and perks that alter luck-based outcomes require Wes to be alive to remain active." to the Tragedy perks explanation.
● Added a new afterthought to Mime, Body and Soul's description: "Should Touch Stones be replaced with Life Giving Amulets? This would make the perk be even more punishing with early game deaths, but after you amass Life Giving amulets its punishment would diminish considerably, at which point you are probably in a stage of the game where the challenges provided have been diminished by progression anyway."
● Revised Hapless Hunter's effect: "Suspicious dirt piles you uncover will never lead to a Koalephant." into "are a lot more likely to lead to threats", "Simple, you cannot get the vests, but you have an easier time making a War Saddle, and/or a Varg farm earlier." into "Getting the vests is more difficulty, but making a War Saddle, and/or a Varg farm early is a lot easier."
 ● Replaced Dramaturgy's speed debuff effect with a new effect: "Embrace the drama and let out your performative side, allowing you and other survivors to more easily get in tune" "Getting hit provokes a dramatic performance, slowing you down while spurring nearby survivors into action", "When hit get slowed by 20% to realize a dramatic performance". Added: "However, your melancholic acting makes shadows more eager to oppress you", "Crawling Horrors that would spawn due to Wes' insanity are replaced by Terror Beaks."
● Added "Lightning spawned from Wickerbottom's The End is Nigh!, and the special lightning spawned from the Moonstorm will not be redirected by this perk." to Magnetic Personality's description.
● Changed Clown to Earth's description and effect slightly: "In turn, nearby allies' are more likely to be positive", "Survivors planting random seeds near Wes will never get weeds" into "But other survivors planting random seeds will never get weeds (this effect is global)."
● Altered Clown Jewels' description, removing the guaranteed Surprising Seed and making several of the effects global: "but nearby allies' odds are improved". Added "The part that impacts other players has global range, unless stated otherwise."
● Changed No Dice's description to make its effect global: "while enemies killed by nearby allies have their odds enhanced", "The opposite is true for other nearby survivors, if the % drop fails it is rerolled and the new result persists." Added "This effect is global."

I LOVE this!! Super well-thought out and fun, and the tragedy/comedy is really clever.

[Pruinae]

3 hours ago, gaymime said:

i mostly just have worries which is not helpful. at best i could refine your suggestions to be more in-line with his actual play for newbies and middling players but i lack a lot of the creativity needed to come up with anything whole-cloth. it is why i don't make one of these; i would not be able to make anything very clever or unique or even that interesting

Hey! You were the one that came up with the pantomimed rope idea, and "i mostly just have worries which is not helpful" is an phenomenal line. I don't know you, but I believe you can give a bit more credit to your creativity. It took me quite a while to come up with the concept, and all was done bit by bit. Those sparks pile up in the end!

[Swiyss]

5 hours ago, gaymime said:

(i still surprise people when i talk about how brave wes is because i have seen lots of dev art of him being brave but most people dont even know there IS dev art let alone a fat stack of it).

This ^^. Exactly this. He's that inoccent brave, that type of person who doesn't care or know about the consequences of a fight, but still wanna fight for his and their people's survival. And I've seen this in his animations and the dev art. It's just a matter of time before we get more in-game interaction in this scenario it seems.

5 hours ago, gaymime said:

i also want him to stay a challenge character. when i play anyone else the game gets really flat and i find myself playing like i used to in diablo where i just wanna make number go up because i am bored of living in the moment. playing as this character gives me ample encouragement to try things that the game has available to me that are not face-tanking and face-tanking+healing. i /enjoyed/ collecting like 30 treeguards to crush krampus like sand under an oncoming tide, i don't like hambatting him while scarfing hot+cold foods....that being said this is not a commonly shared sentiment. people like the option to do both but trend towards the faster simpler solution. i am not sure how to keep wes' core playstyle within the parameters of this desire to do more, better, faster and do it with the same amount(or less) effort. just look at the wendy thing and prior to that woodie

I cannot relate more to you. This is totally me when playing him. I see myself getting literally as much nitre as possible in the caves for gunpowder, spending whole years in-game farming for logs and grass and using 90% of my time building a single varg farm which take seasons to set up only to build a massive field of tooth traps. And be like "hehe, I'm just a little mime with preparation, yet you can't even touch me deerclops, how cute". One thing I just freaking wiiish Klei developers take in consideration when making his skill tree is the fact that we spend so much time gathering resources for these builds, invoking tree guards too, and all of that survivability factor (dealing with hounds, having to eat, light at night, traveling long distances) will add up infinitely higher on him than on other characters because of the fact that he's way weaker.

Now.. This problem that I presented here is a mere consequence for his style of gameplay. The 113 hunger with the old hunger drain was WAY more punishing on the fact that I had to constantly feed myself and I wouldn't have time to do anything in the game. I was locked in base, searching for food, and then coming back to cook, only to have to do it again in 3 days because I ran out of food constantly. And the fact that he's dealing less damage would add up to the difficulty of getting food too. Bees taking 4 hits instead of 2 makes you spend double the time farming for honey on killer bee hives, and koalefant and beefalos would also take longer to do it, it was an unreasonably frustrating gameplay, even if I find the higher hunger drain still an interesting mechanic which I wish with maybe some development and further thinking could come back.

Maybe one solution for this problem is to add skills or features that made his weapon durability even more powerful, so he can have even more uses out of these tools and weapons. Another thing to consider too is to make his movespeed appliable to him, like something that gives him movespeed outside of hand, body slot and head slot similar to wx-78 circuits. Not only this would make him a great character for exploration, but also reduce a little bit of the time spent gathering things. I can already see a Wes main zooming on roads in the map collecting resources, planning base designs, protecting the base itself, crafting traps and contraptions to deal with enemies indirectly and etc.. Not too much related to his balloons, but more related to his gameplay of avoiding these situations.

Althought this could be true, there is also the side of his braveness, so we need to discuss this further too. I'll try putting some questions in line later at the end of the paragraph to generate some contradicting discussions BEFORE THE BETA IS OPEN so we can put into perspective what IS the best skill tree for Wes. There's this weird case for Willow, where she didn't have much going on with magic, but randomly one youtuber who is *note* NOT A WILLOW FAN, decided to randomly talk about her, and how they think her skill tree should look like. Safe to say Willow's skill tree came exactly how that youtuber suggested it to be, and if Klei took inspiration or not, that had (in my opinion) nothing to do with Willow's personality. She's not the one to shoot weird blue fires, and not the one to use black fires too. Both just seems unreasonable but easy to implement, sure, but I just wished her kit surrounded her better with fire perks. So before we mash this mime boy up, I wanna talk about these things in advance.

As for these question I have, I'll put them here and give you guys my opinion about them too.

• Should Wes Skill tree be a Joke/Play on him (A skill tree full of skills that would only make the character harder and more challenging without adding ANY more upsides), a Comedy & Tragedy style (Like the one suggested by OP, where one side would be challenges, but each challenge having it's own intricacies about it and little mechanics that could be overcome based on how experienced the player is with wes; And the other side where skills would resemble a more beneficial characteristic to his skill tree. This would imply both sides, comedy and tragedy), or a skill tree with only upsides (Regarding the fact that Wes learned with his mistakes and experienced how to overcome his bad luck throughout the days in the constant).
• Should Wes be this Brave mime who tries to fight things, but is constantly finding himself being pushed back by the world because of his bad luck (personality/character lore), our should Wes be this mime who works around his issues with different options to deal with his problem of being weaker (gameplay-wise, having bearger destroy evergreens and birtchnuts for him, letting enemies fight each other like bringing deerclops to the forest and killing it with treegards; Taking deerclops to the swamp and letting tentacles deal with him, Taking armored bearger to bee queen and making her reduce his health and then kill him etc..). Would it be fitting for him to have this style of being the one who doesn't interact a bit or not? Wouldn't Maxwell fit better in a summoning category? Wouldn't Winona fit better into the engineer category? Wouldn't Wurt and Webber fit better into the Minion category? And wouldn't Wendy fit better into the Side-By-Side fighting necromancer/spiritism category? Wouldn't Wes maybe fit into a category where he's avoiding the combat hand to hand because of his weakness? Or is his Weakness intended and shouldn't be avoided with in-game features? Should Wes on a beefalo deal less damage too? Should gunpowders not work with Wes or be less effective?(maybe this one not, because then it would force too much into an intended design, removing creativity which is something I despise in development).
• Should Wes skill tree make him more challenging or not? Should it make him easier to play? What are the pros and cons for each, and how do we put this luck and bad luck side to it. Maybe I'll ned to analyze it better.

Wes has some characteristics about himself, let's list them here:

• Wes is a mime, he can't talk, and practices Pantomiming to communicate (more on this later).
• Wes practices Balloonomancy, which is the act of using balloons to represent objects that already exist, or regular balloons too (Other characters will quote how the balloons are flying, and why is that possible, maybe I'm overthinking it but.. Wouldn't Wes have Clown Breath? This clown breath is the reason why the balloons will float to the skies, and also stand in the air for long periods of time. We know that in the constant, some survivors gained something that was basically their dream, but with a catch. Like how Wendy got her sister back, but she's dead as a ghost. And how Wolfgang have insane strenght in the constant due to his dream of being the strong guy coming true, but getting very weak without food. Now.. this is a long story, since Wes wasn't actually tricked into the constant like Wilson and others, he was actually here by accident, so the little he had, which was his balloons, was made into reality. We also know that pantomimed tools WORK and EXIST in the constant, we don't know exactly how they work, and we also don't know why they work, but this might be overshadow to his ability to fabricate DREAMS into REALITY, similar to how other constant survivors do).
• Wes suffers from Asthenia, a condition that makes his muscle groups weaker. The results for this is a longer time chopping, hammering and mining. We also know that he does less damage because of this. Wendy also does less damage, but that's because of how frail she is. Wes was probably cursed with Asthenia from Maxwell, whom hates him and made him suffer through this as a punishment.
• Wes suffers from low stats, this is probably because of his curse. This makes his body weaker against attacks, his mind cursed by insanity, and his stomach smaller and weaker due to the lack of muscles. He's basically a big cursed boy.
• Wes have a very wholesome personality. He's the first trying to help people, and he's the one sacrificing himself for others. He chooses that even when he's suffering because of it. And that is called LOVE in my book. So he's also a love advocate.

Wes balloons currently have some weird features regarding his playstyle that contradicts themselves. We know there's 2 types of Wes players, the regular and the veteran. The regular is the player who fell in love with his cute personality, and got over his difficulties with no problems, but this type of player will suffer a bit from his downsides being too much for them. The veteran is the experienced player who thinks that the regular experience for dst is too easy, so they'll make it harder themselves by accepting challenges that makes them suffer more, but that's the intention of them in the first place.

Also, I just checked Wortox's quote for his Pile o' Balloons, he says "Stores one's breath for later spells". That basically confirms my idea that Wes's breath is magical in some way. So I think this idea should be explored more.

I think that the Party Balloon, Inflatable Vest and Balloon Hat are things focused on the Regular Player. The Speedy Balloon is in my opinion a veteran focused feature. The reason for that is because a veteran knows how to deal with low sanity way better than a noob, and the speedy ballon requires a lot of sanity to be maintained at max speed constantly, which I believe is an amazing indirect feature designed for veterans. The other balloons are clearly designed for people who don't know how to overcome some of these issues here, like the lightning strikes, drowning from a boat, or loss of sanity. Honestly speaking, I hate the fact that these exist. I will refuse to use something like the Balloon Hat instead of the Eyebrella, since it's basically a downgrade without any substantial feature added to it, it's just worse. I don't think there's anything more than that coming from these apart from being cute and to make sense with the idea of inflating balloons itself.

If I could design a Wes skill tree, I would definitely NOT include ANYTHING to help noobs. That's because his idea of a character has engravings of being a challenge character. And both of these don't come together. I think they contradict themselves, it's one or another, and I prefer the challenge vibe of him.

I think wes should be the brave guy honestly speaking. I hate using a beefalo to overcome his downside really. But I don't mind using treegards to kill bearger tho. I also don't mind using bearger to clear forests too. However, there are moments that you can't bring bearger to destroy trees with you, like the Lunar Archipelago, which contains those white trees that need chopping, or the underground mushroom forests. Still, this might be a little off-topic, but I wanted to deal with it now. I actually love the fact that he chop, mine and hammer slower, and I'm not even kidding, the 1% we save from flint axes literally makes this feature worth it in my head for some reason. I'm in love with having more durability on things, I am really passionate about dealing more total damage with a brightshade sword (256 uses for ~17k damage against regular 1x characters doing ~15k with 200 uses. Still we have Wolfgang with more uses per hit, and Warly's pepper spice for more damage too, and Wigfrid's weaponized song, and all of those are great and fills me up with joy using it. Knowing that I'm gaining an advantage by working more just complete my perfectionism in my head in such a satisfying way). Still, even if I enjoy using bearger for trees, I would enjoy more to chop each one of them, this is some weird phenomenon in my head, but it just works. The extra work is negated the MOMENT I see myself having more uses on that thing. And I think that there should probably be a skill to make this durability on tools and weapons EVEN stronger. 

I also am in love with the idea of doing less but truer damage. Like the idea of having 100% planar damage, but at a cost. This for some reason just makes sense to me. If I'm doing 6 hits with 100 damage, it's 600 damage cause. But if I'm doing 6 hits with 89 true damage, that's 534 damage. The moment you introduce that damage to other mobs, like mobs who have built-in armor, or mobs that hide in shells and defensive mechanism, this true damage thing shines. Mobs that would otherwise win against you, will now take that damage from you.

I really really enjoy the 30% movespeed with the cost of having to constantly craft it and manage your sanity.

Maxwell is a character that has built-in features that will benefit the player with more damage from summons, insanely faster and efficient gathering of logs, rocks, grass and twigs. He also have a whole bunch of nicely overpowered features overall, like a new storage, locking enemies in place, insanely high sanity regen and stuff like that. I believe his skill tree should not be overly strong, I think it should only refine the edges. But I'm bringing him up here because he has all of this, at the very low cost of having to farm for nightmare fuel, which is not something too hard to obtain as a veteran, and something very easy to amass at monkey villages and the ruins. But wes got some example of that, but at a very balanced cost, he can move faster, at the cost of sanity, but the moment you acquire a walking cane, this feature becomes obsolete and useless, since the walking cane is infinite and won't reduce your sanity. 

I'm using this example because Wes could possibly get similar features, but way way less powerful compared to Maxwell's ones, and features that wouldn't require you to substitute existing things with them, like the current Speedy Balloon being overriten by the walking cane. If Maxwell's items like the shadow hat is Rank A storage (ender chest), then a Wes new storage item would be C tier, but with a high maintenance too.

Examples of this would be an item that could be placed in Wes's inventory, and that item would grant him something like 9 slots of extra inventory. However, this item would cost a very high tier item, like a Walrus Tusk, Deerclops's Eye (mind you, everyone's description of this item has some kind of hint about how stretchy it is, it could possibly be improved with balloons) etc.. This item could decrease the characters sanity overtime, or even add a higher hunger drain by having it in your inventory. This would be Moderately strong, and have Veteran's level of medium maintenance.

Another example is to make the Speedy Balloon usable without having to equip it in your hand slot. This sounds kinda impossible, but I have a trick. What if a special Speedy Balloon could be ATTACHED to the Walking Cane, or attached to the Lazy Explorer? This would make it give 30% or 40% movespeed increase instead of 25%, but with a HIGH mainetance cost this time, taking in consideration how now it would be close to a rank A item. I suggest that this would imply Wes would need to give out a stronger breath into the speedy balloon, like using garlic in the recipe. Like we know, Wes breath is powerful and magical, making it stronger with garlic would make this special speedy balloon infinite, however, it would also impply a higher sanity drain, because when we eat raw garlic, we lose sanity. So this new Speedy Walking Cane would consume a maximum amount of sanity from him. If the item expires (by using the 20 uses of the lazy explorer), or is destroyed by any means, his maximum sanity cap would go back to normal. This, would not only make the character have an even harder time (but not too much) managing his sanity, but also reduce it's capability of using the gestalts from the enlightened crown, and be insane quicker, making the veteran player fight even more nightmare creatures, at the very balanced and great cost of having a nice little movement speed. The garlic pun is hilarious too.

Another example would be to attach some sort of flying balloon in a backpack, making the backpack fly high into the sky. The backpack could be then used at any time by retrieving it with a pantomimed rope, and then making it fly again, like an attached KITE to the body. This would work similar to Chester, a movable storage. This would also have a cost, every time you release the backpack from the kite, it would drain some sanity as an aura for some time, or while retrieving it.

Another cool example is for Wes to find his own way of acquiring light. If we really think about it, Wes's breath have a magical power to lift things up and make them float, similar to a party balloon. This gas-like breath might have an explosion or flammable properties to it. What if Wes can create an elongated balloon with a very little hole at the end that would release the gas from inside, and it would be lit with a torch. Recipe could be Pile o' balloons, 1x nitre and 1x stinger. This balloon would not disappear at 0% durability, rather it would need to be filled up again. It lasts 2.5 days (20 minutes of light), and you have to drag a torch on top of it to light it up. It would keep lit even when removed from hand. To fill it up, Wes would do the *filling a balloon animation* on it, and it would drain 5 sanity per blow, each blow would fill it up by 20%, so 25 sanity for 20 minutes of light and it would require a torch and it would still drain durability on inventory, seems reasonable and fun to me.
"I could fill them with flammable gas." -Willow, when examining the Pile o' Balloons.

*A skill that would facilitate a season, but worsen the other one would also be very nice. Something like making freezing much harder, but having an extreme vulnerability to overheating and vice-versa. This would make us having to choose one season to be little easier to deal, at the cost of dying way quicker at the other one. Maybe Wes could eat a Bunch of Peppers item, crafted with 2 Peppers and 1 Garlic. He would then blow a scarf balloon that would be placed at the head slot (recipe: 1x Pile o' Balloons -5 sanity. Requirement: eat the Bunch of Peppers). This balloon would have 360 insulation, but drain your sanity by -5 per minute and last 15 days. Eating the Bunch of Peppers would naturally curse Wes with a vulnerability to overheating, so now he'll suffer a -120 built-in reduced summer insulation on top of his already low resistance to overheating.
*The opposite would also be true, Wes would craft a Chilly Peppermint (3x ice, 1x Garlic), and then a chilled balloon hat umbrella style that requires you to eat the Chilly Peppermint to craft. It would do basically the opposing thing.
*Eating these Garlic breatheners would unlock the recipe basically, and the breathener recipe would be unlocked by leveling up the skill, the skills can't be both unlocked and a lock could added to prevent that.

[gaymime]

1 hour ago, Swiyss said:

This ^^. Exactly this. He's that inoccent brave, that type of person who doesn't care or know about the consequences of a fight, but still wanna fight for his and their people's survival. And I've seen this in his animations and the dev art. It's just a matter of time before we get more in-game interaction in this scenario it seems.

yes<3 even when he is at a clear disadvantage he still is willing to do what needs to be done! this two dev drawings have lived rent-free in my head for years;

Spoiler

 

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I cannot relate more to you. This is totally me when playing him. I see myself getting literally as much nitre as possible in the caves for gunpowder, spending whole years in-game farming for logs and grass and using 90% of my time building a single varg farm which take seasons to set up only to build a massive field of tooth traps. And be like "hehe, I'm just a little mime with preparation".

ooooh, so you and me are the same in that x''D i have literally thought i was such a cute wee mime, just being a good boy while very much hoarding my way to being very un-cute. i have often sat up enough bunnies next to bq to be a problem and have collected a full stack of mon-meat to conscript my pigs into sailing with me(and yes, i did give my favourites hats) and i actually have gotten quite capable with tooth-traps and killer beehives

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One thing I just freaking wiiish Klei developers take in consideration when making his skill tree is the fact that we spend so much time gathering resources for these builds, invoking tree guards too, and all of that survivability factor (dealing with hounds, having to eat, light at night, traveling long distances) will add up infinitely higher on him than on other characters because of the fact that he's way weaker.

you know, it hadnt even occurred to me that that is so. the only time i =feel= it is in a lightsout world where you are always counting up until you get starcaller(or celestial champion though i havent gotten a crown since the crabking rework for reasons unrelated to crabking). i wonder how one would counter for that? right now the bunny burrow does a good job at least with storage so there is less time spent taking things back home but that is for everyone not just wes

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Now.. This problem that I presented here is a mere consequence for his style of gameplay. The 113 hunger with the old hunger drain was WAY more punishing on the fact that I had to constantly feed myself and I wouldn't have time to do anything in the game. I was locked in base, searching for food, and then coming back to cook, only to have to do it again in 3 days because I ran out of food constantly. And the fact that he's dealing less damage would add up to the difficulty of getting food too. Bees taking 4 hits instead of 2 makes you spend double the time farming for honey on killer bee hives, and koalefant and beefalos would also take longer to do it, it was an unreasonably frustrating gameplay, even if I find the higher hunger drain still an interesting mechanic which I wish with maybe some development and further thinking could come back.

i got around the higher drain by being hyper aware of birds and always picking up seeds/roe. it isnt much on its own but it does add up over time at easing some of the drain but you are right, there is a lot less time spent afield because you are focusing more on his hunger. personally i actually really liked trading the drain for the cap though. once i got used to the idea of it i actually enjoyed it more. he is perfectly suited to stuffed eggplant and unagi and pepper poppers and calafornia rolls(he is a big part of why i got pretty decent at memorizing the recipes for a lot of things) because unless you are waiting for him to be near-starving to feed him he doesnt really get anything from the staple favourites. a +62 hunger on meatballs is not really practical when you max at 75 and his "i am hungry" is the same as "varg is coming" so you dont want him dancing every time you stand still especially if you are listening to something else in the background and might miss the sound cues

 

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Maybe one solution for this problem is to add skills or features that made his weapon durability even more powerful, so he can have even more uses out of these tools and weapons. Another thing to consider too is to make his movespeed appliable to him, like something that gives him movespeed outside of hand, body slot and head slot similar to wx-78 circuits. Not only this would make him a great character for exploration, but also reduce a little bit of the time spent gathering things. I can already see a Wes main zooming on roads in the map collecting resources, planning base designs, protecting the base itself, crafting traps and contraptions to deal with enemies indirectly and etc.. Not too much related to his balloons, but more related to his gameplay of avoiding these situations.

he smol but fas? that is pretty cute, personally i do use speedy balloon and when i am playing with another player(who is not walter) i will give them a speedy balloon at spawn so we can explore a little faster. the idea of him being a little faster because he is all legs would be something i think is endearing and might give people an incentive to try him though he'd never be viable in speedruns since he is still a slow swinger no matter what he is holding

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Should Wes Skill tree be a Joke/Play on him (A skill tree full of skills that would only make the character harder and more challenging without adding ANY more upsides), a Comedy & Tragedy style (Like the one suggested by OP, where one side would be challenges, but each challenge having it's own intricacies about it and little mechanics that could be overcome based on how experienced the player is with wes; And the other side where skills would resemble a more beneficial characteristic to his skill tree. This would imply both sides, comedy and tragedy), or a skill tree with only upsides (Regarding the fact that Wes learned with his mistakes and experienced how to overcome his bad luck throughout the days in the constant).

so the thing is conceptually i have nothing but a strong enthusiastic "yes" in me....in practical application? not really..i love this lil' guy so much but i gotta say almost noone sticks with him after trying him out and i have gotten more than a dozen people to try him out.....i want him to do well and be played so i want him to be something people want and right now noone seems to want to be "the joke".

i like the idea of the player choosing peace or chaos but i dont like the player being forced to pick both. in truth about two-thirds of the downsides would personally turn me off playing him and i am a hard-core wes main with +4k hours of playing him(mostly in dst but also in ds solo) and no intention of stopping. i am quite literally the audience for this and i would be reluctant to do that much self-abuse. i like a fair few parts of the positive aspects though and while they are not all to my personal tastes stuff like the jester bomb are pretty close to a thing i had been mulling over for a while now and kind of want to suggest seeing how at least one other person has had a similar thought

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Should Wes be this Brave mime who tries to fight things, but is constantly finding himself being pushed back by the world because of his bad luck (personality/character lore), our should Wes be this mime who works around his issues with different options to deal with his problem of being weaker (gameplay-wise, having bearger destroy evergreens and birtchnuts for him, letting enemies fight each other like bringing deerclops to the forest and killing it with treegards; Taking deerclops to the swamp and letting tentacles deal with him, Taking armored bearger to bee queen and making her reduce his health and then kill him etc..). Would it be fitting for him to have this style of being the one who doesn't interact a bit or not? Wouldn't Maxwell fit better in a summoning category? Wouldn't Winona fit better into the engineer category? Wouldn't Wurt and Webber fit better into the Minion category? And wouldn't Wendy fit better into the Side-By-Side fighting necromancer/spiritism category? Wouldn't Wes maybe fit into a category where he's avoiding the combat hand to hand because of his weakness? Or is his Weakness intended and shouldn't be avoided with in-game features? Should Wes on a beefalo deal less damage too? Should gunpowders not work with Wes or be less effective?(maybe this one not, because then it would force too much into an intended design, removing creativity which is something I despise in development).

honestly this is already left entirely up to the player. aside from the beef/gunpowder bit this is wholly a question of player immersion and outside of the purview of a skilltree

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• Wes suffers from Asthenia, a condition that makes his muscle groups weaker. The results for this is a longer time chopping, hammering and mining. We also know that he does less damage because of this. Wendy also does less damage, but that's because of how frail she is. Wes was probably cursed with Asthenia from Maxwell, whom hates him and made him suffer through this as a punishment.
• Wes suffers from low stats, this is probably because of his curse. This makes his body weaker against attacks, his mind cursed by insanity, and his stomach smaller and weaker due to the lack of muscles. He's basically a big cursed boy.

so this is just my headcannon and only meritorious not directly said by the lore provided but it seems wes is like willow and is either homeless or at least incredibly poor before coming to the constant. you tend to be smaller and weaker when you are malnourished and the phrase "starving artist" has a lot of historical precedent. i have never had so little as when i was living wholly on my art. there doesnt need to be any special reason for his poor stats outside of his already poor living conditions. the fact that he is one of the skinniest characters and now has one of the smallest stomachs is also grounds to suggest he is just chronically underfed. the low sanity is definately a curse x''D

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Wes have a very wholesome personality. He's the first trying to help people, and he's the one sacrificing himself for others. He chooses that even when he's suffering because of it. And that is called LOVE in my book. So he's also a love advocate.

 

 

[gaymime]

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Should Wes skill tree make him more challenging or not? Should it make him easier to play? What are the pros and cons for each, and how do we put this luck and bad luck side to it. Maybe I'll ned to analyze it better.

see, this is the part that keeps me from forming a strong opinion. i don't actually /know/. every time i think of an answer i can easily counter it and i am left at an impass. this is why i say i lack imagination. i would say "cant fix what isnt broken" but there is wendy out there being keyed into the most playable character in the game for the largest number of people, i would say "the design is the intent" but there is always so much complaining with wolfgang even thoguh he is the literal numbers character, i would say "people wont like an unliked character just because of gimicks" but willow turned it around so fast i still sometimes and bewildered by how much people like her now. i am super bad at guessing how a character is going to beat the spread and i am unsure how that particular "magic" is done so i cant even guess at how to do it

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I think that the Party Balloon, Inflatable Vest and Balloon Hat are things focused on the Regular Player. The Speedy Balloon is in my opinion a veteran focused feature. The reason for that is because a veteran knows how to deal with low sanity way better than a noob, and the speedy ballon requires a lot of sanity to be maintained at max speed constantly, which I believe is an amazing indirect feature designed for veterans. The other balloons are clearly designed for people who don't know how to overcome some of these issues here, like the lightning strikes, drowning from a boat, or loss of sanity. Honestly speaking, I hate the fact that these exist. I will refuse to use something like the Balloon Hat instead of the Eyebrella, since it's basically a downgrade without any substantial feature added to it, it's just worse. I don't think there's anything more than that coming from these apart from being cute and to make sense with the idea of inflating balloons itself.

sooooo party balloon got a cap a while back so that you couldnt just tank your sanity for a massive crowd boost, the aoe is way smaller now and only 5 people can get a boost at a time and the max-cap boost is pretty low(which sucks, for a while i loved telling people to huddle up then having them get excited when the balloons started popping and everyone got sanity). it kind of made it mostly worthless for newbies and is more suited to "storing" emergency sanity at the cost of your invo. sure you get to transmute that 15 sanity from your not-quite-stale greencap into party balloons but you are now down two extra invo slots to hold three balloons. it went from amazing to mostly worthless in a coop situation and i never use it anyway since it is easier to force-feed a newbie than to try and corral them over multiple times to party them up enough to send away terrorbeaks :/

inflatable vest is a non-item. people generally wont give up their backpacks AND armours for it personally it is way more economical to carry a grass boat or some patches than pile o' balloons on the water. i spend a lot of time sailing and i just leave the balloons at home for that bit

in truth using balloons at all is just not reasonable for newbies. if you are good at sanity management(the thing newbies are worst at) then eating 15 sanity and making three balloons to get the threeish "safe" minutes of speed boost that first day is fine, converting early sanity into speedy balloons for the first several days is clever and neat, if you are a pro or have a stack of sanity items to burn making a trailing line of speedy balloons while you race across the map is pretty cool and fun to see.... if you arent good at it however then even one speedy balloon is too precious to make and at best it is really only good as a cheap map-flare. i dont encourage new players to use the pile at all just because it is a trap to people who dont really know how to play and risky if you do know how to play but are in a pub or a barren patch and are not capable against shadows yet. i would love some stuff in the pile that gave an advantage in exchange for sanity like invisible tools/balloon tools then even if you are rubbish at sanity management you at least get something of value in exchange for getting bullied by nightmares

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If I could design a Wes skill tree, I would definitely NOT include ANYTHING to help noobs. That's because his idea of a character has engravings of being a challenge character. And both of these don't come together. I think they contradict themselves, it's one or another, and I prefer the challenge vibe of him.

i help newbies. it makes together fun and enjoyable to me. i am literally only here for two reasons, clothes and helping newbies. i would just stick to solo otherwise. i am plenty happy with that game.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Pruinae said:

Hey! You were the one that came up with the pantomimed rope idea, and "i mostly just have worries which is not helpful" is an phenomenal line. I don't know you, but I believe you can give a bit more credit to your creativity. It took me quite a while to come up with the concept, and all was done bit by bit. Those sparks pile up in the end!

well then i will maybe try to collect up the ideas i have had since wes' refresh was still speculative though for sure you included most of it here already X'''D

[Swiyss]

7 hours ago, gaymime said:

i like the idea of the player choosing peace or chaos but i dont like the player being forced to pick both. in truth about two-thirds of the downsides would personally turn me off playing him and i am a hard-core wes main with +4k hours of playing him(mostly in dst but also in ds solo) and no intention of stopping. i am quite literally the audience for this and i would be reluctant to do that much self-abuse. i like a fair few parts of the positive aspects though and while they are not all to my personal tastes stuff like the jester bomb are pretty close to a thing i had been mulling over for a while now and kind of want to suggest seeing how at least one other person has had a similar thought

That's interesting. I see the drawbacks sometimes might seem too much right? And for you that might throw you off I see. We have to be careful for these downside to not make the character unfun to play, or to discourage people to play him. We might be currently in the middle ground of "yes we want challenge skills, but not ones that hurt his gameplay too much", "I want skills to facilitate my gameplay as wes" and "I want skills to make Wes a joke, skills that would only be bad luck related" and I trust that this middle ground is actually necessary. I believe, that his skill tree might be the hardest to conceptualize, but one thing I'm getting close to realise is that those trees that we see getting released today are basically making the character's downsides obsolete sometimes. And if that's the case, then Wes should get a great skill tree, with SOME skills that cost some challenges to be applied for it to work. Like the example I gave, and item with 360 insulation, but having innate -120 insulation in the opposite temperature, which I find it hard, but rewarding. And I believe it should be like that. My opinion is that his skill tree should be challenging, but very rewarding. He should be the one who puts a whole backpack with rocks behind the players back, and tells them to carry it, but every once in a while, you'll get used to the rocks, and realise how much they gave you muscles to sustain them

6 hours ago, gaymime said:

I help newbies. it makes together fun and enjoyable to me. i am literally only here for two reasons, clothes and helping newbies. i would just stick to solo otherwise. i am plenty happy with that game.

Oh yeah true, I do that too, a lot actually. It's just that.. I don't believe his skill tree should be designed thinking for newbies, since most Wes players are veterans.

On 1/17/2025 at 4:06 AM, Swiyss said:

So I believe that none of his downsides should actually be negated or aliviated with his skill tree.

As I said before, I think I still stand by this. Even if alleviating some of his downside would be great, I think just working around them would be better. I would honestly hate a skill like "Wes's damage is 1x now" or "Wes can now chop and mine normally" etc.. This would be extremely lazy, not creative, unfun, and it would even destroy his gameplay personality.

[WANZUN]

在2025年1月18日下午1点26分，普赖纳说:

希望我的概念能够将他变成一个非常具有挑战性的角色，一个非常强大的支持，可以改善团队的战利品掉落并通过重定向威胁来保护他人，或者只是一个具有独特有趣优点的角色，这取决于你选择升级的技能。这已经超过了韦斯以前的水平，也超过了大多数人对韦斯的期望。我的希望是，无论当韦斯的回合到来时，克莱选择哪条路，它都会让他成为一个有趣的角色，人们会真正考虑去扮演他。

Your design is good, but now that DST is in decline, tlei may make 1/3 less than your design. This is a tragedy.

[Swiyss]

3 hours ago, WANZUN said:

Your design is good, but now that DST is in decline, tlei may make 1/3 less than your design. This is a tragedy.

what do you mean decline?

[WANZUN]

22 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

what do you mean decline?

The problem of translating app. Decline, decline, period of decline, curtain, dung eater. I don't know which one is correct. I can't seem to translate it.

[Swiyss]

1 minute ago, WANZUN said:

The problem of translating app. Decline, decline, period of decline, curtain, dung eater. I don't know which one is correct. I can't seem to translate it.

It seems that you're saying that Don't Starve Together is getting worse, and the game is declining in popularity, starting to turn from good game to bad game.

Before : DST GOOD. Later (decline) : DST BAD.

I don not know if you mean this.

or

The updates from the game are starting to end and will not happen anymore as the game is in a decline to END. If that's the case, where did you get this idea from?

[WANZUN]

1 hour ago, Swiyss said:

你好像在说《不要一起挨饿》越来越烂了，游戏人气下降，开始从好游戏转到坏游戏了。

以前:DST良好。后来(下降):DST不好。

我不知道你是不是这个意思。

或者

来自游戏的更新开始结束，不会再发生了，因为游戏正在走向结束。如果是这样的话，你是从哪里得到这个想法的？

The popularity has not declined, the reputation has declined, the update is even worse, but am I talking about it?

I don't like to talk too much. The translator app always acts like I'm attacking people.

I don't like to talk too much. The translator app always acts like I'm attacking people. yes 

[gaymime]

5 minutes ago, WANZUN said:

The popularity has not declined, the reputation has declined, the update is even worse, but am I talking about it?

I don't like to talk too much. The translator app always acts like I'm attacking people.

the "reputation" has not declined.  there are 0 days in the last three months where there were more negative reviews than positive reviews. there were only 2 days where the number of positive-to-negative review ratios were lower than average and 8 where the ratios were higher than average

https://steamdb.info/app/322330/charts/#reviews

you feel it has declined because you think it has declined and so you listen more to negative sentiments than to positive sentiments. the people who do not talk at all still love the game even though the people who do talk argue with each other about it.

[WANZUN]

两小时前，gaymime说:

“名声”并没有下降。过去三个月中有0天负面评价多于正面评价。只有2天的正面与负面评论比率低于平均水平，8天的比率高于平均水平

https://steamdb.info/app/322330/charts/#reviews

你觉得它已经下降了，因为你认为它已经下降了，所以你更多地听消极情绪，而不是积极情绪。根本不说话的人仍然热爱这项运动，即使说话的人会为此互相争论。

But it is clearly full of controversy. There are a lot of curses in various forums in my country.

The reviews were good in the past few years, but in recent years it has been numerical collapse, misappropriation of DS, furnace and canyon materials, modules of creative workshops, and all kinds of curses. Update is not good, Malenia is not doing well, isn't this downhill?

I really can't say more, this translation app random translation. First of all, I didn't attack any players. Communication doesn't move. I can only see the sound of abuse. I do not deny that there is a good voice, but I am overshadowed by it.

There is also the question of module charges. Did klei really want to manage it? Put where to eat and wait to die every day, the module is a piece of ****, all selling skin, is to learn from klei?

Before suddenly sealed the mythology book, said, the follow-up fee module does not care, right, do not want to operate, early destruction is fine

I've been playing for about 7000 hours, but it's not as good as it used to be. I used to know it was a survival game, but now it's a ball.

I see, you can't see the scolding, you don't see the defects, so you think it's not going down, it's still a perfect game?

[gaymime]

1 hour ago, WANZUN said:

But it is clearly full of controversy. There are a lot of curses in various forums in my country.

The reviews were good in the past few years, but in recent years it has been numerical collapse, misappropriation of DS, furnace and canyon materials, modules of creative workshops, and all kinds of curses. Update is not good, Malenia is not doing well, isn't this downhill?

I really can't say more, this translation app random translation. First of all, I didn't attack any players. Communication doesn't move. I can only see the sound of abuse. I do not deny that there is a good voice, but I am overshadowed by it.

There is also the question of module charges. Did klei really want to manage it? Put where to eat and wait to die every day, the module is a piece of ****, all selling skin, is to learn from klei?

Before suddenly sealed the mythology book, said, the follow-up fee module does not care, right, do not want to operate, early destruction is fine

I've been playing for about 7000 hours, but it's not as good as it used to be. I used to know it was a survival game, but now it's a ball.

I see, you can't see the scolding, you don't see the defects, so you think it's not going down, it's still a perfect game?

we only see what we are looking for. the numbers tell a different story from the forums.

i have seen lots of people say the game is over, the game is terrible, the game cannot be played anymore. for four years i have watched people say over and over there is no more game: yesterday 53,000 people played dst. somehow the game is doing fine and is still played and is still alive even though it is "bad now". *shrugs*

[GimplyGoose]

1 hour ago, WANZUN said:

But it is clearly full of controversy. There are a lot of curses in various forums in my country.

The reviews were good in the past few years, but in recent years it has been numerical collapse, misappropriation of DS, furnace and canyon materials, modules of creative workshops, and all kinds of curses. Update is not good, Malenia is not doing well, isn't this downhill?

I really can't say more, this translation app random translation. First of all, I didn't attack any players. Communication doesn't move. I can only see the sound of abuse. I do not deny that there is a good voice, but I am overshadowed by it.

There is also the question of module charges. Did klei really want to manage it? Put where to eat and wait to die every day, the module is a piece of ****, all selling skin, is to learn from klei?

Before suddenly sealed the mythology book, said, the follow-up fee module does not care, right, do not want to operate, early destruction is fine

I've been playing for about 7000 hours, but it's not as good as it used to be. I used to know it was a survival game, but now it's a ball.

I see, you can't see the scolding, you don't see the defects, so you think it's not going down, it's still a perfect game?

I don't want to derail this thread too much because it should be about Wes and his potential skill tree, but I do want to make one comment on this...

For me, the game is fun to play. It is not a perfect game and in another world some of the recent updates could have more content, be released more quickly, gone in a different direction, etc. I'm not going to be bitter about what we are getting out of the recent updates, because one of the reasons I keep coming back to play this game (and previously DS) is because of the changes to the game through updates. If Klei stopped updating the game 5 years ago, I probably would have stopped playing it 4 years ago.

As for why you may think the game is in decline, it could be that you have simply played it too much. Like a roommate that you initially get along with, if you spend too much time living together, you might start disliking each other over little things. 7000 hours is a lot of time. If you stop playing the game for 6 months or so, you might have a different perspective.

Now back to discussing the topic at hand...

I really like the idea of the tragedy/comedy dichotomy in the skill tree you presented. I think I made an off-hand comment in another thread with a similar idea to have Wes's skill tree split up between negative perks and positive perks and you have presented a much more fleshed out idea here in a really great way here and I like it a lot.

[Swiyss]

4 hours ago, gaymime said:

the "reputation" has not declined.  there are 0 days in the last three months where there were more negative reviews than positive reviews. there were only 2 days where the number of positive-to-negative review ratios were lower than average and 8 where the ratios were higher than average

https://steamdb.info/app/322330/charts/#reviews

you feel it has declined because you think it has declined and so you listen more to negative sentiments than to positive sentiments. the people who do not talk at all still love the game even though the people who do talk argue with each other about it.

Yeah I was gonna say this. The game has a better reputation than more than most games on steam today. Even with this group in the community trying to give bad reviews to the game instead of accepting what's in front of you OR try to reason it on somewhere. You can talk about it, but to be childish in this level is only going to hurt YOU. 

So if these groups of people are hurt because of some of the thinking behind the development direction, my advice is to not try to spread this negative aura to others because you can't contain it.

The best way to come up to other communities, the developers, and other people who think against you is to be at the very least friendly. But I also am an advocate for standing grounds when people attack you. Being resilient is also important.

[WANZUN]

5 hours ago, GimplyGoose said:

我不想太偏离这个主题，因为它应该是关于韦斯和他的潜在技能树，但我想就此发表一点意见...

对我来说，这个游戏玩起来很有趣。这不是一个完美的游戏，在另一个世界中，最近的一些更新可能会有更多的内容，更快地发布，朝着不同的方向发展，等等。我不会对我们从最近的更新中得到的东西感到痛苦，因为我不断回来玩这个游戏(和以前的DS)的原因之一是因为通过更新对游戏的改变。如果Klei在5年前停止更新游戏，我可能会在4年前停止玩它。

至于你为什么会认为这种游戏在衰落，可能是因为你玩得太多了。就像你最初相处的室友一样，如果你们在一起生活的时间太长，你们可能会因为一些小事而开始不喜欢对方。7000小时是一段很长的时间。如果你停止玩游戏6个月左右，你可能会有不同的观点。

现在回到讨论手头的话题...

我真的很喜欢你在技能树中提出的悲剧/喜剧二分法。我想我在另一个帖子中做了一个类似的评论，将韦斯的技能树分为消极奖励和积极奖励，你在这里以一种非常好的方式提出了一个更加充实的想法，我非常喜欢。

No more reply, seriously stray from the topic, is it true that there are many defects that I have mentioned? I haven't played much in the last year or two, because I can't get the updates I want. I'm playing the Dark Soul and the Lord of the Rings.

I have listed a few questions, but I still don't answer them directly, and don't reply to me. Perfect update, all right. No more replies.

[_mylilsunshine_]

i don't play wes and i don't intend to, but you worked hard on this (๑•̀ㅂ•́)و  so i hope you will receive your flowers (๑•̀ㅂ•́)و 

[asdsaax]

Very cool!

Though when it comes to Wes' skilltree I always imagined he would have dumb stuff like:

Balloon telltale hearts that instead of reviving ghosts they would pop and drop confetti

or... "Mime Codex" because Wes tries to imitate Maxwell but instead of servants he would spawn black balloons with his rubbery codex

[apex_malik]

Hot Air balloon vehicle that can traverse over water and such.

[Cheggf]

On 1/16/2025 at 10:04 PM, Pruinae said:

As I see it, an experienced player won't really be challenged that much from a 0.75 damage multiplier or a -25% work efficacy debuff, it will just make it take longer to kill things and collect resources.

So you've decided to give him a skill tree full of things that just make it take longer to collect resources like "Fishing is worse so you need to do it more", "Your seeds are almost guaranteed to suck so you need to plant 5x as many", "You get the least amount of stuff from 5 different things so you need to do all of them more", and "You're unlikely to get items so you need to kill more enemies"?

[Pruinae]

13 hours ago, Cheggf said:

So you've decided to give him a skill tree full of things that just make it take longer to collect resources like "Fishing is worse so you need to do it more", "Your seeds are almost guaranteed to suck so you need to plant 5x as many", "You get the least amount of stuff from 5 different things so you need to do all of them more", and "You're unlikely to get items so you need to kill more enemies"?

Why do players go fishing?
Pearl: After the chair task got added I don't see anyone doing that anymore.
Celestial Champion rush: The heavy fish RNG is bad enough that people avoid it at all costs.
Bootlegs: Frostjaw has a trade amount limit anyway, and with "Expert Haggler" Wes can expect to get more bootlegs than any other character.
Fish Scale-O-Matic: This is a very specific point. "Poisson D'Avril" makes it impossible for you to get the heaviest fish, but it makes it a lot more likely to get the lightest fish. So it depends on what your objective for the scale is.
Food: I've honestly never seen anyone fishing specifically for food, outside of Wickerbottom shenanigans that I don't really count as fishing, and I assume the players that would do it probably wouldn't be playing Wes anyway. The fish morsel isn't necessarily worse in the crockpot, it just changes what other ingredients you have to use.

Regarding "Clown to Earth", after you get the specific seeds you need that part isn't an issue anymore, and before that you can get a lot of Soothing Tea, Beefalo Treats, and if you have a Wendy you can help her make Ghastly Experience. It's a trade, it is only slowing the game down if you brute force through the perk to go against the idea of it.

For "Clown Jewels" Tumbleweeds and Labyrinth Chests don't change quantity wise, only "quality" wise, so for the "slowing game down" argument they don't really apply. For the other three it is indeed a change in stack amount, so let's analyze why people go after them:
Sunken Chests: For Walking Canes and Surprising Seeds, both of which the perk doesn't affect.
Loot Stash: For Krampus Sack, Life Giving Amulets, Blueprints, Boss Loot, and Wax Paper. The perk makes impossible to get the Krampus Sack, blueprint and one of the amulets, but everything else remains the same. The worst part would be not getting the blueprint chance, but by the time you get to kill Klaus a second time you probably already got every blueprint he could drop anyway, the 50% chance might have not even happened the first time. It does make the game harder by not giving you one of the amulets.
AG's Chest: It might mean you lose out on a good amount of thulecite and gems in the LONG loooong run, but late game the only gem that matters anyways are the green ones (in which you wouldn't rely exclusively in AG's RNG to get anyway), and you don't even really have a reason to use thulecite late game besides for decorative walls.

Now, "No Dice" I will agree could slow the game down. The reason I decided to keep it the way it is, is due to the multiplayer part of it. I imagine solo Wesses wouldn't get this perk unless they are going for "Joker", at which point I would hope Joker has enough going on for it to justify No Dice's downsides. If this is the perk that contradicts the most with what was stated before then it is a hill I am alright dying on.

So, I believe your point was "You are contradicting yourself", and the reasoning above was why I believe that is not so. Hopefully it helps clarify the concept's train of thought.

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, Pruinae said:

Food: I've honestly never seen anyone fishing specifically for food, outside of Wickerbottom shenanigans that I don't really count as fishing, and I assume the players that would do it probably wouldn't be playing Wes anyway. The fish morsel isn't necessarily worse in the crockpot, it just changes what other ingredients you have to use.

I fish for food when I rush a boat base, and I often play Wes while I'm doing that. If you're primarily staying on the ocean fish is a great food source. The only reason most people don't fish for food is because most people don't like engaging with the ocean and want to do it the minimum amount possible, so they hoard food before departing then put it in an ice box on the boat.

2 hours ago, Pruinae said:

Regarding "Clown to Earth", after you get the specific seeds you need that part isn't an issue anymore

Amassing the seeds you want is the longest and slowest part of farming. If you try to farm, this perk would waste 100x more time than the slower work perk. Especially considering most things that the slower work perk would even affect can be aided with followers or entirely replaced by giants like bearger. There's no alternative for getting seeds. If I want to avoid the work penalty perk, I can use things like pigs, bearger, or even deerclops to help me do it faster. If I want to avoid the seed penalty perk, there's nothing I can do. I need to spend 5x as much time gathering seeds, I need to spend 5x as much time hoeing the ground, I need to spend 5x as much time planting seeds, I need to spend 5x as much time shoveling weeds, and I need to spend more time tending to the plants. Eventually it would reach a point where as long as I don't let the seeds spoil I won't have to put up with the annoying thing any more, but this is an enormous time sink that's incomparably larger than the minor work decrease he has. 

2 hours ago, Pruinae said:

It's a trade, it is only slowing the game down if you brute force through the perk to go against the idea of it.

What is the idea of it? That you, the supposedly more advanced player, entirely ignore game mechanics and delegate them to other players? What if there are no other players? Or are you referring to Wes just not being able to farm at all and instead he just makes those annoying flowers for subpar tea, so that the supposedly more advanced player is supposed to not need to think about things like season preference, family happiness, water, nutrients, crop combos, or fertilizers, and instead he just mindlessly spams unidentified seeds to get the same weed over & over again?

2 hours ago, Pruinae said:

For the other three it is indeed a change in stack amount, so let's analyze why people go after them

Do you think that people don't ever use things like thulecite, gems, rocks, papyrus, or the million other useful items that the sunken & ag chests provide? Just because you personally do not go for these treasures for those rewards specifically does not mean that the rewards don't exist at all. Regardless of whether you personally are going for the sunken chest to try to get a walking cane, to try to get thulecite, or to just see what you get, if you get thulecite from it you still get thulecite from it. Every piece of thulecite you get from a sunken chest is a piece of thulecite you don't have to get from a statue. Every cut stone you get from it, the same resource that you're complaining about needing to spend longer obtaining, is a cut stone you don't need to get from a boulder.

The loot stash is the same. You complain about boss fights taking 33% longer, yet want to remove a chance to remove 100% of the duration of a boss fight. If Klaus drops a BQ crown and a bundling wrap blueprint, you can completely skip that fight without missing out on much. If he drops the toadstool thing you're needing that toadstool didn't drop, you can completely skip the toadstool rematch. These are all huge time investments that are way bigger than the ones created by the minor work speed penalty, and again unlike the work speed penalty, there's nothing you can do about it. You can't open the chest differently to get better rewards, you just get crap.

2 hours ago, Pruinae said:

So, I believe your point was "You are contradicting yourself", and the reasoning above was why I believe that is not so. Hopefully it helps clarify the concept's train of thought.

The idea of a skill tree with drawbacks that can be utilized to your advantage is what I have always wanted for Wes, but you have not done that here. At least not with the skills I've criticized. These perks are nothing but slowing the game down with no way to counteract it, unlike the way that his work speed penalty slows the game down (by a far smaller amount) with the ability to counteract it by harvesting with other sources than an axe or a pickaxe. You have even directly slowed down the harvesting rate you're complaining about and made the game even more stagnant with your sunken chest nerf. If you need a lot of stone for whatever reason, maybe you're making lots of cobblestone, you could be searching for sunken chests to try to get all their loot including the seeds that you're happy about, and while you're doing that you'd be getting a good amount of cut stone. And here you're seeing that Wes is using creativity and ingenuity to tackle two birds with one stone, and saying "Stop that! You're supposed to be the slow character who spends more time grinding things!".