Wendy damage comparison

[Lardee]

11 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Not super sure what the dotted line is for, but here you go, and looks nice

Doesn't he deal more damage with the Void Cowl + Reaper? 

(41.8*2 + 47 (planar) + 25 (Mighty Weapons 5 skill))x2 = 311.2 dps.

 

[Koomin]

6 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Doesn't he deal more damage with the Void Cowl + Reaper? 

(41.8*2 + 47 (planar) + 25 (Mighty Weapons 5 skill))x2 = 311.2 dps.

 

Idk man I'm sorry I can't keep making more of these graphs I've tried my best.  If you want to add a dot for other things I'm all for it though.  For what it's worth, comparing ornery beefalo to dark sword seems like a reasonable suggestion since they are both top tier pre-rift setups, and the difference you are mentioning is pretty small anyway.  I also think the current graph gets the point across and more stuff is a bit too much. 

[Lardee]

47 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Idk man I'm sorry I can't keep making more of these graphs I've tried my best.  If you want to add a dot for other things I'm all for it though.  For what it's worth, comparing ornery beefalo to dark sword seems like a reasonable suggestion since they are both top tier pre-rift setups, and the difference you are mentioning is pretty small anyway.  I also think the current graph gets the point across and more stuff is a bit too much. 

Don't make another graph. My comment was more about what we should consider a character's theoretical maximum.

I don't think a fully tamed Ornery Beefalo + War Saddle +Shadow Abigail (requires pure horror) + Abigail Cursed damage is remotely comparable to a weapon you can get in early Autumn. Unless you're using YoTB, getting the War Saddle alone can take much longer than rift stuff.

42 DPS is not small, it cuts the disparity between Wendy and Wolf in half.

 

Actually, Wolfgang does even more damage if you use the WARBIS headgear + dark sword (68*2*1.2*2 = 326).

[Arcwell]

Small nitpick, the DPS multipliers on the first graph imply each character attacks 2 times per second (0.5 sec interval), but base weapons attack  ~2.14 times per second (14/30 sec interval) and can go up to 2.5 times per sec (0.4 sec interval) with animation cancelling.

Also, attack speed is going to be different on something like a beefalo (1.875 attacks/sec or 16/30 sec interval) unless you're using animation cancelling.

[Picklesaurus]

2 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Also base attack speed is going to be different on something like a beefalo (1.875 attacks/sec or 16/30 sec interval) unless you're using animation cancelling.

Animation cancelling with beefalo can also make it attack up to 2.5 times per sec (0.4 sec interval), right?

[Steorra]

I've just did some comparison yesterday, I found that the cursed vex is imbalance for pre-rift, but it's weak for planar mobs, it seems the cursed vex was trapped into a same situation like what Shadow Abi does before this patch.

I thick cursed vex need nerf to its' general damage but need buff for some planar damage output

[Arcwell]

2 minutes ago, Picklesaurus said:

Animation cancelling with beefalo can also make it attack up to 2.5 times per sec (0.4 sec interval), right?

Yep. Same applies for most things that can be animation cancelled.

Off-hand the only thing I remember has a different animation cancel attack interval is Walter's slingshot with the royal jelly grip (it was either 14/30 sec or 13/30 sec interval, timing is tricky so I'm unsure how consistent it is), but there might be some more obscure weapons that also have different intervals when cancelled.

[Steorra]

5 hours ago, Koomin said:

Not super sure what the dotted line is for, but here you go, and looks nice

a problem is that cursed vex seems more like a post-rift elixir by it's design. 

[CremeLover]

9 hours ago, Steorra said:

a problem is that cursed vex seems more like a post-rift elixir by it's design. 

That is mostly correct.

The elixir to improve the Vex requires nightmare horror, which is post rift material, except that it can be dropped by nightmare werepig even pre rift in quantities of 4-5 by a 20 day cooldown (if you kill scrappy werepig exactly 10 days later to respawn).

If you were to use the normal elixir values, the formula would be

2.31x + 80 as shadow Abigail is not really locked to post rift materials after unlocked.

If you were to consider the theoretical maximun of each character, you would also need to include Wolfgang's free 25 planar damage when using planar weapons, so

4x + (25+y)*2= 4x+50+2y  with y being whatever damage the planar weapon is doing

Which, if I use the Void Cowl and maxed Shadow Maul: 38×1,1×4+(25+22+24+5)*2=319.2 for non aligned non planar mobs.
The numbers would be different if we include his 30% extra damage to an aligned mob+ its planar defense. For the Maul in particular there's also the lifesteal to consider.

If you also want to use the ornery beefalo formula, you also need to consider the cost of taming and maintaining a beefalo, and swap to the war saddle if you're using pre-rift math.

 

Is easy to run math comparison between two cases, but is a bit trickier to account for every situation, and the planar introduction has made everything more complicated.

The theoretical maximun of Wendy+Ornery Beefalo+Shadow Abigail+Shadow Elixir does have significant investment cost, whereas Wolfgang, while the Maul has significant investment and upkeep, it can reach 311,2 with the Shadow Reaper much less investment that having to tame and upkeep an Ornery Beefalo. Using the Reaper means you don't have any lifesteal though.

If you want to factor EVEN MORE calculations, Wendy+Ornery Beefalo+Shadow Abigail+Shadow Elixir is doing 76 planar damage and 248 physical, whereas Wolfgang is doing 152 planar and 167.2 physical with the Cowl+Maul, which gives Wolfgang the advantage against planar entities (possibly, don't want to do planar math at the moment), and it becomes more when you factor his 30% faction damage.

So, TL;DR:

-War Saddle Ornery Beef Wendy does more damage than Wolfgang with a dark sword pre-rift (283.28 vs 272). (didn't factor the elixir from Pure Horror pre-rift from Nightmare Werepig)
-Nightmare Saddle Ornery Beef Wendy (NSOB) does more damage against non-planar entities post rift (324 vs 319.2).
-Post Rift Wendy NSOB does 248 physical damage + 76 planar damage
-Post Rift Wolfgang Maul+Cowl does 162.7 physical + 152 planar

Wolfgang should have the advantage going forward due to having more of his damage being planar, even more so with the right aligntment, but pre-rift Wendy has Wolfgang beaten by a tiny bit with a signifnicaly bigger resource investment and upkeep, and no lifesteal if Wolfgang goes for Maul over Reaper. That is, until a new weapon/saddle gets added, or other external buffs, that gives one the advantage over the other.

 

[RussoDaFederal]

7 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

That is mostly correct.

The elixir to improve the Vex requires nightmare horror, which is post rift material, except that it can be dropped by nightmare werepig even pre rift in quantities of 4-5 by a 20 day cooldown (if you kill scrappy werepig exactly 10 days later to respawn).

If you were to use the normal elixir values, the formula would be

2.31x + 80 as shadow Abigail is not really locked to post rift materials after unlocked.

If you were to consider the theoretical maximun of each character, you would also need to include Wolfgang's free 25 planar damage when using planar weapons, so

4x + (25+y)*2= 4x+50+2y  with y being whatever damage the planar weapon is doing

Which, if I use the Void Cowl and maxed Shadow Maul: 38×1,1×4+(25+22+24+5)*2=319.2 for non aligned non planar mobs.
The numbers would be different if we include his 30% extra damage to an aligned mob+ its planar defense. For the Maul in particular there's also the lifesteal to consider.

If you also want to use the ornery beefalo formula, you also need to consider the cost of taming and maintaining a beefalo, and swap to the war saddle if you're using pre-rift math.

 

Is easy to run math comparison between two cases, but is a bit trickier to account for every situation, and the planar introduction has made everything more complicated.

The theoretical maximun of Wendy+Ornery Beefalo+Shadow Abigail+Shadow Elixir does have significant investment cost, whereas Wolfgang, while the Maul has significant investment and upkeep, it can reach 311,2 with the Shadow Reaper much less investment that having to tame and upkeep an Ornery Beefalo. Using the Reaper means you don't have any lifesteal though.

If you want to factor EVEN MORE calculations, Wendy+Ornery Beefalo+Shadow Abigail+Shadow Elixir is doing 76 planar damage and 248 physical, whereas Wolfgang is doing 152 planar and 167.2 physical with the Cowl+Maul, which gives Wolfgang the advantage against planar entities (possibly, don't want to do planar math at the moment), and it becomes more when you factor his 30% faction damage.

So, TL;DR:

-War Saddle Ornery Beef Wendy does more damage than Wolfgang with a dark sword pre-rift (283.28 vs 272). (didn't factor the elixir from Pure Horror pre-rift from Nightmare Werepig)
-Nightmare Saddle Ornery Beef Wendy (NSOB) does more damage against non-planar entities post rift (324 vs 319.2).
-Post Rift Wendy NSOB does 248 physical damage + 76 planar damage
-Post Rift Wolfgang Maul+Cowl does 162.7 physical + 152 planar

Wolfgang should have the advantage going forward, even more so with the right aligntment, but pre-rift Wendy has Wolfgang beaten by a tiny bit with a signifnicaly bigger resource investment and upkeep, and no lifesteal if Wolfgang goes for Maul over Reaper. That is, until a new weapon/saddle gets added, or other external buffs, that gives one the advantage over the other.

 

I didn't know about this huge planar damage bonus Wolfgang had. This makes nerfing shadow Abi's damage seem even less useful now

[WenericMember]

11 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

That is mostly correct.

The elixir to improve the Vex requires nightmare horror, which is post rift material, except that it can be dropped by nightmare werepig even pre rift in quantities of 4-5 by a 20 day cooldown (if you kill scrappy werepig exactly 10 days later to respawn).

If you were to use the normal elixir values, the formula would be

2.31x + 80 as shadow Abigail is not really locked to post rift materials after unlocked.

If you were to consider the theoretical maximun of each character, you would also need to include Wolfgang's free 25 planar damage when using planar weapons, so

4x + (25+y)*2= 4x+50+2y  with y being whatever damage the planar weapon is doing

Which, if I use the Void Cowl and maxed Shadow Maul: 38×1,1×4+(25+22+24+5)*2=319.2 for non aligned non planar mobs.
The numbers would be different if we include his 30% extra damage to an aligned mob+ its planar defense. For the Maul in particular there's also the lifesteal to consider.

If you also want to use the ornery beefalo formula, you also need to consider the cost of taming and maintaining a beefalo, and swap to the war saddle if you're using pre-rift math.

 

Is easy to run math comparison between two cases, but is a bit trickier to account for every situation, and the planar introduction has made everything more complicated.

The theoretical maximun of Wendy+Ornery Beefalo+Shadow Abigail+Shadow Elixir does have significant investment cost, whereas Wolfgang, while the Maul has significant investment and upkeep, it can reach 311,2 with the Shadow Reaper much less investment that having to tame and upkeep an Ornery Beefalo. Using the Reaper means you don't have any lifesteal though.

If you want to factor EVEN MORE calculations, Wendy+Ornery Beefalo+Shadow Abigail+Shadow Elixir is doing 76 planar damage and 248 physical, whereas Wolfgang is doing 152 planar and 167.2 physical with the Cowl+Maul, which gives Wolfgang the advantage against planar entities (possibly, don't want to do planar math at the moment), and it becomes more when you factor his 30% faction damage.

So, TL;DR:

-War Saddle Ornery Beef Wendy does more damage than Wolfgang with a dark sword pre-rift (283.28 vs 272). (didn't factor the elixir from Pure Horror pre-rift from Nightmare Werepig)
-Nightmare Saddle Ornery Beef Wendy (NSOB) does more damage against non-planar entities post rift (324 vs 319.2).
-Post Rift Wendy NSOB does 248 physical damage + 76 planar damage
-Post Rift Wolfgang Maul+Cowl does 162.7 physical + 152 planar

Wolfgang should have the advantage going forward due to having more of his damage being planar, even more so with the right aligntment, but pre-rift Wendy has Wolfgang beaten by a tiny bit with a signifnicaly bigger resource investment and upkeep, and no lifesteal if Wolfgang goes for Maul over Reaper. That is, until a new weapon/saddle gets added, or other external buffs, that gives one the advantage over the other.

 

I think thats a fair state for Wendy to be in, offensively. In exchange for much more utility over Wolf, her damage is harder tp attain and scales worse.

Side note, but how common is planar aoe?

[RussoDaFederal]

1 minute ago, WenericMember said:

Side note, but how common is planar aoe?

Can't all characters with AoE do planar AoE if they're using planar weapons? Although Abi will definitely be the best source of planar AoE when this update goes live, which is fair since she was the best source of AoE anyway before skill trees

[Dingle]

11 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Can't all characters with AoE do planar AoE if they're using planar weapons? Although Abi will definitely be the best source of planar AoE when this update goes live, which is fair since she was the best source of AoE anyway before skill trees

Trying to think of a list. Only Wigford, Winona, and Wormwood spring to mind at first. Wurt too, though I try to pretend Wurt doesnt exist.

Wormwood has planar aoe from Brambleshade, but off top of head, the planar part is really tiny.

Wigford has the spear dash.

Winona certainly has planar aoe.

Thinking more, Woodie moose mastery has planar aoe on third hit, but I'm not sure how much of the damage is planar.

Willow has planar aoe with the flamethrower.

Wolfgang does not get a planar aoe dumbbell throw.

[CremeLover]

1 minute ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I didn't know about this huge planar damage bonus Wolfgang had. This makes nerfing shadow Abi's damage even less useful now

Mighty weapons branch from the skilltree adds 5 extra planar damage per skill to Wolfgang only when using planar weapons, up to 25.

His shadow/lunar affinity also adds a separate multiplier (up to 1.3) that is applied to both his physical damage AND planar damage, but only against opposite affinity mobs. So Shadow aligned Wolfgang with Cowl+Maul would do

162.7 *1.3 + 152*1.3 = 211.51 physical + 197.6 planar = 409.11
Also, shadow weapons have a 10% base extra damage to lunar that also applies to both physical and planar.
162.7 *1.3 *1.1+ 152*1.3*1.1 = 232.661 physical + 217.36 planar = 450.02

But you would only see numbers like these against Celestial Guardian or other lunar-aligned mobs without planar resistance

 

13 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I think thats a fair state for Wendy to be in, offensively. In exchange for much more utility over Wolf, her damage is harder tp attain and scales worse.

Side note, but how common is planar aoe?

From the player side, Brightshade Staff and Brightshade bomb. The Staff is AoE~ish, and does 10 damage per hit, whereas the brightshade bomb is a true AoE like NapSack and does 200 damage total, though it might be a bit expensive if you plan to use it as reliable AoE planar damage long term.

Character wise, many characters have gotten AoE with their reworks, Willow, Wigfrig and Winona from the top of my head.

[RussoDaFederal]

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

I try to pretend Wurt doesnt exist

Same tbh

[Tranoze]

16 hours ago, Lardee said:

Wolfgang does even more damage if you use the WARBIS 

And even MORE damage if enemy is vex.