“Beefalo is OP for Wendy, Abi is Immortal”, LET END THIS.

[Tranoze]

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

end up beating it even faster

Isnt it old time face tank speed problem?
A wilson with marble suit + thule helm face tank a treeguard will always kill treeguard faster than a wilson that dodge every hit?

Because the other abi video keep using dodge/dash on abi, her vex arent apply 100% of the time, plus nightmare saddle + ornery beefalo have quite low ratio on planar damage so they are not the highest dps vs planar bosses. Nightmare saddle only have 18 base planar damage, while reaper at full stack with  deal 47 planar damage.
The physical damage after vex get reduce by planar defense so the different wont be as much as 29 damage.

[Well-met]

"let's end this by making another pointless super-biased topic"

that's not going to work.

[thesooz9000]

5 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

Because the other abi video keep using dodge/dash on abi, her vex arent apply 100% of the time

That's the point..? Lardee without using wendy's max potential, was able to kill the boss faster than someone who has, simply cause he used blessed sisturn III to ensure he didn't have to manage abigail's hp...

[DegenerateFurry]

5 hours ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I don't like how Lardee approaches this this topic. He's overly sarcastic and sometimes rude. But we NEED a definition of what balance IS. If there isn't a definition, we can't have a discussion. Something is balanced or not according to what definition? What's the criteria? Damage? Health? The ratio between health regen and damage received? We need something objective to make statements about balance, otherwise we'll get nowhere. This is how ANYTHING works, not just DST. We need a crystal clear definition, especially since there is also a language barrier at play here.

I still think that we should use Wilson as an example of balance. 

Can Wilson face-tank by spamming healing items? Yes, yes he can, although he can still die in some situations. You can get a stack of pierogis and tank any boss. Doing that means getting a lot of healing items, though.

Can Abigail face-tank by spamming healing items? Yes, yes she can, although she still dies to most AoE bosses (it just takes longer). You can get a stack of Spectral Cure-Alls and tank any boss, although you'll also need pierogis to heal Wendy during the fight, so you actually need more healing items to make Abigail that tanky. 

Abigail being able to be tanky is balanced because it makes you stronger than Wilson in exchange for spending a lot more resources than Wilson. You still need armor and healing items for yourself, but now you also need a bunch of healing items for Abigail, so it's fair that you get to use her in boss fights and get the benefits of that if you spend those resources.

Pretty simple thing to understand.

[Tranoze]

Just now, thesooz9000 said:

That's the point..? Lardee without using wendy's max potential, was able to kill the boss faster than someone who has, simply cause he used blessed sisturn III to ensure he didn't have to manage abigail's hp...

Max potential doesnt mean it is the max dps. The potential for beefalo is infinite durability weapon and amplify vex on pre-rift enemy. Vs rift enemies, the physical damage + vex cant be compared to reaper + cowl max stack.

[Lardee]

1 minute ago, Tranoze said:

Max potential doesnt mean it is the max dps. The potential for beefalo is infinite durability weapon and amplify vex on pre-rift enemy. Vs rift enemies, the physical damage + vex cant be compared to reaper + cowl max stack.

This is a good point. Wouldn't mind the test being done again with Void Cowl + Reaper instead of Nightmare Saddle Beefalo, although I don't think the results would change all that much.

[Tranoze]

1 minute ago, Lardee said:

This is a good point. Wouldn't mind the test being done again with Void Cowl + Reaper instead of Nightmare Saddle Beefalo, although I don't think the results would change all that much.

I wonder what combat style you would want for wendy + abi, since for bosses wendy can easy fight, she was always fight the same as wilson/wolfgang. For bosses that hard to fight, some unsummon and fight as wilson/wolfgang, some like you, positioning so boss wont target abi as much then fight kinda same as wilson/wolfgang.

Ideas i got from your combat style:
Mirror dance : Abi and wendy will always stand in opposite side of the boss and abi will try to mirror wendy movement if possible.

[Lardee]

12 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

I wonder what combat style you would want for wendy + abi, since for bosses wendy can easy fight, she was always fight the same as wilson/wolfgang. For bosses that hard to fight, some unsummon and fight as wilson/wolfgang, some like you, positioning so boss wont target abi as much then fight kinda same as wilson/wolfgang.

Ideas i got from your combat style:
Mirror dance : Abi and wendy will always stand in opposite side of the boss and abi will try to mirror wendy movement if possible.

The combat style that requires you to deviate from Wilson/Wofgang gameplay depending on the situation. 

I don't like mirror dance because it solves a problem that doesn't exist. Wendy could always position herself on the opposite side of Abigail. The problem with fighting bosses like Bearger or deerclops was that they had AoE was omnidirectional. Team Spirit gives Wendy two options to deal with that (Dash and intangible).

[RussoDaFederal]

16 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I still think that we should use Wilson as an example of balance. 

Can Wilson face-tank by spamming healing items? Yes, yes he can, although he can still die in some situations. You can get a stack of pierogis and tank any boss. Doing that means getting a lot of healing items, though.

Can Abigail face-tank by spamming healing items? Yes, yes she can, although she still dies to most AoE bosses (it just takes longer). You can get a stack of Spectral Cure-Alls and tank any boss, although you'll also need pierogis to heal Wendy during the fight, so you actually need more healing items to make Abigail that tanky. 

Abigail being able to be tanky is balanced because it makes you stronger than Wilson in exchange for spending a lot more resources than Wilson. You still need armor and healing items for yourself, but now you also need a bunch of healing items for Abigail, so it's fair that you get to use her in boss fights and get the benefits of that if you spend those resources.

Pretty simple thing to understand.

That's a good starting point but there's a problem here. You should compare Wilson to Wendy, not to Abigail. You CAN facetank any boss with enough armor and healing items with any character, that much is true. However, Abigail is not a character. Sisterly bond and player attachment aside, she's more like a resource to be managed. The idea behind increasing Abi's health and/or defense was never to enable her to facetank everything, it was simply to add a bigger margin of error so the players wouldn't lose her in 4 hits. Now that she can heal effectively twice as fast, she can facetank a lot of stuff. Unless that's what Klei wanted, I don't find it balanced at all.

[Well-met]

10 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

That's a good starting point but there's a problem here. You should compare Wilson to Wendy, not to Abigail. You CAN facetank any boss with enough armor and healing items with any character, that much is true. However, Abigail is not a character. Sisterly bond and player attachment aside, she's more like a resource to be managed. The idea behind increasing Abi's health and/or defense was never to enable her to facetank everything, it was simply to add a bigger margin of error so the players wouldn't lose her in 4 hits. Now that she can heal effectively twice as fast, she can facetank a lot of stuff. Unless that's what Klei wanted, I don't find it balanced at all.

not to mention a single player will get interrupted mid-eating anim quite often.

[DegenerateFurry]

1 hour ago, RussoDaFederal said:

That's a good starting point but there's a problem here. You should compare Wilson to Wendy, not to Abigail. You CAN facetank any boss with enough armor and healing items with any character, that much is true. However, Abigail is not a character. Sisterly bond and player attachment aside, she's more like a resource to be managed.

Well, yeah? And your reward for managing it well (which does actually take time away from the time you spend attacking the boss) is that she stays alive much longer in certain boss fights. I don't see the issue. It's no different than amassing an army of spiders as Webber (both are core character perks) except that it's more expensive and you can't just hold F the whole time to have them be effective. The spiders can actually be tankier than Abigail if you have 6+ nurses. 

  

50 minutes ago, Well-met said:

not to mention a single player will get interrupted mid-eating anim quite often.

The bosses in this game don't attack very frequently.

[RussoDaFederal]

37 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

It's no different than amassing an army of spiders as Webber (both are core character perks) except that it's more expensive and you can't just hold F the whole time to have them be effective

So it's no different except it's completely different?

Look, Abigail is unique because she's not a disposable follower. Comparing her to spiders or any other disposable follower isn't suitable because the gameplay, mechanic, strategy, call it whatever you like, is different. With Wendy and Abigail you have to take part in the fight. With Webber, Wurt, or anyone with 50 bunnymen, you just attack the boss once and let your army do the rest of the work for you. The closest comparison to Abigail is Bernie, and even then they're very different from each other. Letting Abi die means you didn't manage your resources properly and the game will punish you for that. Sure, make her a little tankier, add some more room for error, but enabling her to tank almost everything removes this balance: you keep her alive, you get her damage buff and she protects you from hound waves and the such. You let her die, you lose those bonuses for a short while. Simple as that

[DegenerateFurry]

13 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Look, Abigail is unique because she's not a disposable follower. Comparing her to spiders or any other disposable follower isn't suitable because the gameplay, mechanic, strategy, call it whatever you like, is different. With Wendy and Abigail you have to take part in the fight. With Webber, Wurt, or anyone with 50 bunnymen, you just attack the boss once and let your army do the rest of the work for you.

Yeah, I know. I'm saying that it's not unbalanced for Abigail to be tanky if you actively work to make her tanky because other survivors don't have to actively work to keep their followers tanky. Like you said, a Webber with a spider army consisting of a sufficient quantity of nurses and warriors/depths dwellers can just "attack the boss once and let your army do the rest of the work for you".

Meanwhile, Wendy's permanent follower has to be constantly healed to remain in the fight, or else she'll die and get low enough max health to be one-shot by some enemies when resummoned. 

The difference is effectively that Webber puts in a small amount of work up-front recruiting the spiders, but then has them basically passively during boss fights, whereas Wendy has Abigail passively, but has to put in more work than Webber's spiders need to keep her around for long at all.

Also, she still can't tank "almost everything". Her effectiveness versus normal mobs is unchanged (so she can die if you use her improperly or try to make her fight a bunch of pigs or merms/etc, or strong enemies like rooks), some bosses don't have increased damage versus mobs and thus hit her the way they hit unarmored players regardless of the player tag, and even against the majority of bosses she now takes less damage from, she still dies long before they do even with sustained Spectral Cure-All spam. You do actually still have to properly manage Abigail (fighting at night, using Team Spirit skills to keep her alive, unsummoning her so she can heal up during boss fights, positioning, etc) with Blessed Sisturn III; the difference it makes is just that the management is more forgiving, and you don't have to keep her unsummoned to heal for the majority of a fight anymore. 

The difference the player tag makes is just making Abigail more able to tank certain bosses, especially if you pair that with Spectral Cure-Alls (which, just for healing Abigail, consumes about the same amount of HP as if you just ate the pierogis and face-tanked the boss yourself). It making her immortal/invincible/etc is an exaggeration, nothing more. 

[RussoDaFederal]

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

and even against the majority of bosses she now takes less damage from, she still dies long before they do even with sustained Spectral Cure-All spam

Like who? CC? Armored Bearger? I can't think of anyone else that gives Abi trouble. Worst case scenario, you have to stop holding F to heal yourself and maybe despawn Abi for 10 seconds or less. That's it. If you try facetanking with both options, extra health vs increased defense, at least with extra health you have to wait a while longer for Abi to heal. I'm not saying Abi should die to bosses no matter what, but facetanking should be possible but discouraged. It's possible on both scenarios as long as you despawn Abi eventually and let her heal. However, if you heal with double efficiency, you're encouraging facetanking.

[DegenerateFurry]

Just now, RussoDaFederal said:

Like who? CC? Armored Bearger? I can't think of anyone else that gives Abi trouble. Worst case scenario, you have to stop holding F to heal yourself and maybe despawn Abi for 10 seconds or less. That's it. If you try facetanking with both options, extra health vs increased defense, at least with extra health you have to wait a while longer for Abi to heal. I'm not saying Abi should die to bosses no matter what, but facetanking should be possible but discouraged. It's possible on both scenarios as long as you despawn Abi eventually and let her heal. However, if you heal with double efficiency, you're encouraging facetanking.

Even in that video from that Lardee thread where he had her healing the entire time in his demonstration video, she did actually die against every boss he put her against. It's just that it took longer than normal, which is fine if you're spamming healing items because that's how the game works. I've also been doing my own playthrough in the beta and even a non-AoE boss like Klaus can wreck her if you let him (I'm talking about normal and not enraged), so you do actually need to be using Cure-Alls frequently while also managing her positioning and attacking the boss yourself and healing yourself. 

[Xplan]

7 hours ago, Lardee said:

That's the problem with giving Abigail the player tag.

even with the help of player tag.

there are still a amount of bosses beefalo wendy can not tank.

[somethin]

3 minutes ago, Xplan said:

even with the help of player tag.

there are still a amount of bosses beefalo wendy can not tank

Then don't...?
You know what's better than tanking? Not getting hit in the first place. Please learn to kite with Abigail please and thank you

[RussoDaFederal]

18 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Even in that video from that Lardee thread where he had her healing the entire time in his demonstration video, she did actually die against every boss he put her against

Isn't that what the demonstration was for? Counting how many seconds Abi can tank the bosses before they kill her?

[Xplan]

Just now, somethin said:

Then don't...?
You know what's better than tanking? Not getting hit in the first place. Please learn to kite with Abigail please and thank you

uh oh

i've already have a DST tutor lardee.

if you want to teach, find somebody else.

[xhyom]

You guys should stop pretending so much, you've already overplayed your cards, no one believes that Wendy is weak or anything like that anymore, playertag will happen anyway. You can stop now very annoying

[somethin]

4 minutes ago, Xplan said:

if you want to teach, find somebody else

Oh don't worry, I don't want to teach anyone here
It's literally a fool's errand to convince any one of anything on this forum
I'm just here to watch the world burn and share my opinions with a popcorn in my hand

[Xplan]

3 minutes ago, xhyom said:

You guys should stop pretending so much, you've already overplayed your cards, no one believes that Wendy is weak or anything like that anymore, playertag will happen anyway. You can stop now very annoying

gestalt abi is still weak, truly.

[xhyom]

3 minutes ago, Xplan said:

gestalt abi is still weak, truly.

agree

[DegenerateFurry]

27 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Isn't that what the demonstration was for? Counting how many seconds Abi can tank the bosses before they kill her?

Whatever it was for, it shows that Abigail is, by definition, not immortal or invincible even with Cure-All spam because she still dies. It just takes longer.

[ColdHeaven]

It'd be nice if woodie can eat during weremoose, it sucks that i can't fight certain bosses because i can't heal. And don't talk about kiting, i want to relax during a boss fight. Also can we allow woodie to transform on command and not cost all the hunger too? I just want to relax when the hounds come