“Beefalo is OP for Wendy, Abi is Immortal”, LET END THIS.

[Steorra]

Could you please get down you level to others before you talking about balance, or before you look down at others?

To be clear, In this thread I would not focus on balance itself of current DST, but here would go focus on "Where we started" for these heating topics, which seems started from "Balance" but not real.

We know someone was gave out a "Immortal Abi V.S Armored Bearger" video, to "point out" that current Abi with Player Tag is "Immortal" and makes the game of Wendy become boring.

My criticism to these words, is, their LOGIC is based on "It become EZ for ME, so it is OP" - Because that video and argument including a simple lie: They were trying to prove that Abi with Player Tag become “Immortal” which hint that she is brainless OP now. But is that true? Let us check this video:

角色标签月熊坦度测试_单机游戏热门视频

Abi with Player Tag and Cure-All healing, dead when facing Armored Bearger. From 26" ~ 43"

I don't want to give any test about BERNIE! with Planar Entity Tag here for argument, since it's obviously someone already dwelling deep into their own illusion. Any evidence or logic would be meaningless for this sceranio.

The video above is just for reveal that what a simple lie behind the video which shows you "Abi with Player Tag become IMMORTAL for Armored Bearger". That "Immortal Abi with video was based on some Abi management. They were lying, it's NOT brainless, especially for casuals.

And I want to point out a truth - For many argument happened these days, those argument were simply based on a logic which started from "My own personal standard and perspective". This logic is lack of empathy, toxic, which may result in a selfish opinion.

 

Then, some personally argument incoming, which just for proving my logic and criticism.

Spoiler

  

19 hours ago, hyoton123 said:

You’re intentionally lowering your sanity, so fighting shadow creatures is totally within your control.

 

Someone may think Wendy have no drawback anymore if Abi become "Immortal", we now know that "Immortal" is just a lie which based on a personally scenario with skills of Abi management. But what about "Wendy have no other drawback"? 

These days some argument just shows that there's a flexible standard, when you say "Wendy is weak for Shadows", they say "That's your problem but Wendy have no drawback of Shadows."; when you say Beefalo is imbalance, words turned into "Beefalo have serious drawback of knockdown."

If I recall correctly, someone was called my name and asking for a Beefalo & Wendy video of V.S Armored Bearger, for showing "why beefalo is OP". They insist that "Beefalo have drawback of knockdown", but see this video:

测试服温蒂 无角色标签（PlayerTag） 战牛阿比月熊_饥荒

So, if I could easily to kill every knockdown bosses with Beefalo, could I use the toxic logic above, to simply say, "Beefalo is OP, if you have issue with knockdown mobs, that's your own problem, not of Beefalo itself"?

And same for Player Tag of Abi. The video shows that I could easily kill Armored Bearger without Player Tag of Abi. Could I join the Elitism Club by using this video as a stepping stone? Is that means from now I could look down at others and tell them "Abi has no survival issue, Player Tag is unnecessary."?

I guess some of you may have your answers here, of what a toxic logic behind those heating arguments.

 

Last, I want to say one thing to everyone who still struggling in these arguments:

"Shall we please to get down our level to each others before we trying to talk about some 'balance' issue?"

[yinjiu019]

Well said...
Some people always want to deprive others of the right to fight for what they want, and for this they are willing to belittle what they don't need as garbage...
They are just selfish humans in the guise of "balance"...
Is it offensive to say this...? Sorry if I offend you
つ﹏⊂

With the same proficiency, I can finish the game in one minute with the sickle Wendy, without even any acceleration.
But Abigail made the process redundant.
This is the problem.
ヾ(≧へ≦)〃

[Echsrick]

this stuff is never goin to end even after the update happen and people will still want more and even more....

[yinjiu019]

4 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

this stuff is never goin to end even after the update happen and people will still want more and even more....

If you think that any comfort is not what we deserve, you will always think so...
Even if you just want something that existed before?
So......( ＿ ＿)ノ｜

[Steorra]

3 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

still want more and even more....

This seems same for nerfing side.

People just want the right to define "what is balance", which is a right to define "what is right".

people want the truth based on their own standard. what an "Uncompromising” game! I guess this is the true game what people want. so they all obsessed with it.

[Xplan]

9 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

this stuff is never goin to end even after the update happen and people will still want more and even more....

they take gestalt atk invincibility away.

now they want more......

[Kamen Rider]

I have also raised this opinion before, and their answer was that 'player tags will make Abigail invincible'.
But as shown in the video you posted, even if Abigail used Spectral Cure All, she could only survive for a short time.
We are not playing DARK SOULS, DST does not have strict technical requirements for players. Klei created a skill tree to make our characters stronger over time and game progress.
Moreover, the 'player tag' is not obtained for free! It is not a powerful skill that can be used on the first day. It requires us to invest points and create a Boat, then search for Lune Tree Blossom in the vast sea and transplant it back home.
I'm not sure how much time you can shorten with your superb skills, but for me, it may take several seasons, at least 20 days of gameplay, and countless construction resources.
In this way, we can achieve a 50% damage reduction effect for Abigail, and even if it is not well managed, it may disappear during the battle due to spending too much time on our way to fight the boss
Getting rewards through hard work is not a bad thing, even though it may offset the perfect skills you have developed over the years in the game, it is reasonable for casual players who cannot achieve perfect operations and require additional skills.
As I mentioned above, obtaining the 'Player Tag' does not mean that Abigail is invincible, it just gives us more fault tolerance and operational space.
Obtaining player tags does not necessarily mean we can defeat enemies, but it can make Abigail exist for a longer time, allowing us to receive reasonable rewards after obtaining Lune Tree Blossom over time.
PS： The player tag only gives Abigail a 50% damage reduction that matches the character, rather than a one hit kill or 100% damage reduction (to add this sentence, as I have seen countless times that someone claims the player tag is equivalent to cheating ability)

[Xplan]

Just now, WANZUN said:

DST is now out of balance, 40% because English players have been praising bad updates, right? Hypocritical English players make the game worse.

oh nononononono，withdraw your word, or this thread is gonna be locked

Just now, Kamen Rider said:

We are not playing DARK SOULS, DST does not have strict technical requirements for players. Klei created a skill tree to make our characters stronger over time and game progress.

darks souls is easier, truly.

[WANZUN]

刚才，Xplan说:

哦不不不不，收回你的话，否则这个线程将被锁定

隐藏了，我去一般讨论里攻击他们

[RussoDaFederal]

21 minutes ago, Steorra said:

People just want the right to define "what is balance", which is a right to define "what is right".

Coming up with a definition for what is balanced or not is THE starting point of any discussion about any game. If it isn't, then it's all based on opinion.

3 minutes ago, WANZUN said:

DST is now out of balance, 40% because English players have been praising bad updates, right? Hypocritical English players make the game worse.

Damn, it was the British all along! I knew it!

[Xplan]

Just now, WANZUN said:

隐藏了，我去一般讨论里攻击他们

多用谐音，比如贵物

[WANZUN]

1 minute ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Coming up with a definition for what is balanced or not is THE starting point of any discussion about any game. If it isn't, then it's all based on opinion.

Damn, it was the British all along! I knew it!

For English-speaking players, language differences are really a big problem, and translating app often doesn't work well.

[SilverSpoon]

8 minutes ago, WANZUN said:

DST is now out of balance, 40% because English players have been praising bad updates, right? Hypocritical English players make the game worse.

At some point there were people who were racist towards Chinese people, it's NO mean we can respond with a different kind of racism.

[RussoDaFederal]

Just now, WANZUN said:

For English-speaking players, language differences are really a big problem, and translating app often doesn't work well.

I know, it was just a joke.

[Xplan]

Just now, RussoDaFederal said:

Coming up with a definition for what is balanced or not is THE starting point of any discussion about any game. If it isn't, then it's all based on opinion.

you must be lardee's student.......

he loves interrogating others with "how do you define ###"

Just now, RussoDaFederal said:

I know, it was just a joke.

the translator kills the humor somtimes.

[RussoDaFederal]

Just now, Xplan said:

you must be lardee's student.......

I don't like how Lardee approaches this this topic. He's overly sarcastic and sometimes rude. But we NEED a definition of what balance IS. If there isn't a definition, we can't have a discussion. Something is balanced or not according to what definition? What's the criteria? Damage? Health? The ratio between health regen and damage received? We need something objective to make statements about balance, otherwise we'll get nowhere. This is how ANYTHING works, not just DST. We need a crystal clear definition, especially since there is also a language barrier at play here.

[WANZUN]

5分钟前，银勺子说:

在某些时候，有些人对中国人有种族主义，这并不意味着我们可以用不同的种族主义来回应。

英语玩家应该没什么歧视意义，我不回复了，跑题严重

[Xplan]

1 minute ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I don't like how Lardee approaches this this topic. He's overly sarcastic and sometimes rude. But we NEED a definition of what balance IS. If there isn't a definition, we can't have a discussion. Something is balanced or not according to what definition? What's the criteria? Damage? Health? The ratio between health regen and damage received? We need something objective to make statements about balance, otherwise we'll get nowhere. This is how ANYTHING works, not just DST. We need a crystal clear definition, especially since there is also a language barrier at play here.

indeed

[thesooz9000]

53 minutes ago, Xplan said:

they take gestalt atk invincibility away.

now they want more......

Gestalt Atk invincibility went cause it achieved the worst case scenario, a game where abigail does everything for you.

[hyoton123]

Steorra, I’ve reported you for harassment. Don’t try and start problems.

 

That said:

 

-If you lower your sanity enough you get shadow monsters. Poster was using blue mushrooms. It’s obvious what the consequence is.

 

-Wendy isnt *that much* worse against shadow creatures, and in practice this is not a disadvantage unless you are actively causing yourself problems. If you are trying to spawn shadows then go for it. 

 

Rest of your post is the usual.

[BalkanCockroach]

2 hours ago, yinjiu019 said:

Well said...
Some people always want to deprive others of the right to fight for what they want, and for this they are willing to belittle what they don't need as garbage...
They are just selfish humans in the guise of "balance"...
Is it offensive to say this...? Sorry if I offend you
つ﹏⊂

With the same proficiency, I can finish the game in one minute with the sickle Wendy, without even any acceleration.
But Abigail made the process redundant.
This is the problem.
ヾ(≧へ≦)〃

No one is depriving anyone of anything. People just see things different, it's called opinions. We are free to disagree with your ideas. 

2 hours ago, Steorra said:

This seems same for nerfing side.

People just want the right to define "what is balance", which is a right to define "what is right".

people want the truth based on their own standard. what an "Uncompromising” game! I guess this is the true game what people want. so they all obsessed with it.

No? I haven't seen anyone say ONE MILLION NERFS PLEASE! After gestalt Abby was nerfed people were fine. But then this big buff happened and now we're in ww1 trench warfare. Honestly it's very much fine and strong like this (imo). What baffles me is people demanding more buffs.

[Steorra]

26 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

Steorra, I’ve reported you for harassment. Don’t try and start problems.

 

That said:

 

-If you lower your sanity enough you get shadow monsters. Poster was using blue mushrooms. It’s obvious what the consequence is.

 

-Wendy isnt *that much* worse against shadow creatures, and in practice this is not a disadvantage unless you are actively causing yourself problems. If you are trying to spawn shadows then go for it. 

 

Rest of your post is the usual.

No idea about what harassment. Someone keep calling at my name by @, but I haven't use this for just an argument since I don't want to bother anyone.

10 minutes ago, BalkanCockroach said:

 After gestalt abby was nerfed oeopke were fine. 

"fine" of keep asking rollback for her.

[hyoton123]

2 minutes ago, Steorra said:

No idea about what harassment. Someone keep calling at my name by @, but I haven't use this for just an argument since I don't want to bother anyone.

You tagged me in your thread via quote trying to start an argument. Thats a bit hostile. Don’t do that.

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

You tagged me in your thread via quote trying to start an argument. Thats a bit hostile. Don’t do that.

It was just copy and paste, I was ignored it might trigger the message tips like @, Im sorry.

[Lardee]

5 hours ago, Steorra said:

Could you please get down you level to others before you talking about balance, or before you look down at others?

To be clear, In this thread I would not focus on balance itself of current DST, but here would go focus on "Where we started" for these heating topics, which seems started from "Balance" but not real.

We know someone was gave out a "Immortal Abi V.S Armored Bearger" video, to "point out" that current Abi with Player Tag is "Immortal" and makes the game of Wendy become boring.

My criticism to these words, is, their LOGIC is based on "It become EZ for ME, so it is OP" - Because that video and argument including a simple lie: They were trying to prove that Abi with Player Tag become “Immortal” which hint that she is brainless OP now. But is that true? Let us check this video:

角色标签月熊坦度测试_单机游戏热门视频

Abi with Player Tag and Cure-All healing, dead when facing Armored Bearger. From 26" ~ 43"

I don't want to give any test about BERNIE! with Planar Entity Tag here for argument, since it's obviously someone already dwelling deep into their own illusion. Any evidence or logic would be meaningless for this sceranio.

The video above is just for reveal that what a simple lie behind the video which shows you "Abi with Player Tag become IMMORTAL for Armored Bearger". That "Immortal Abi with video was based on some Abi management. They were lying, it's NOT brainless, especially for casuals.

So this is what we call a lie and most likely one made with malicious intent.

If you go back and watch the video that tested Abigail against bosses, it clearly showed that Abigail wasn't immortal against many bosses if she's just purely tanking. She dies against regular Bearger, Crystal Deerclops and Fuelweaver. The only boss that she was stated to be invincible against is regular Deerclops. Armored Bearger hits way harder and faster than all of these guys, so clearly no one was claiming Abigail was immortal if she's soloing armored Bearger.

 

What the actual claim was is that if you FIGHT Armored Bearger, you can forget she even exists and do the fight no differently than Wilson/Wolfgang and Abigail will not die. 

 

It's posts like these that really impede any attempt at getting somewhere with the conversation, and unfortunately this behavior has almost entirely come from one side.

5 hours ago, Steorra said:

If I recall correctly, someone was called my name and asking for a Beefalo & Wendy video of V.S Armored Bearger, for showing "why beefalo is OP". They insist that "Beefalo have drawback of knockdown", but see this video:

测试服温蒂 无角色标签（PlayerTag） 战牛阿比月熊_饥荒

So, if I could easily to kill every knockdown bosses with Beefalo, could I use the toxic logic above, to simply say, "Beefalo is OP, if you have issue with knockdown mobs, that's your own problem, not of Beefalo itself"?

And same for Player Tag of Abi. The video shows that I could easily kill Armored Bearger without Player Tag of Abi. Could I join the Elitism Club by using this video as a stepping stone? Is that means from now I could look down at others and tell them "Abi has no survival issue, Player Tag is unnecessary."?

I guess some of you may have your answers here, of what a toxic logic behind those heating arguments.

This video proves why the Player Tag removes Wendy's downsides. You're playing Wendy with high skill and using her at her (IMO) absolute maximum potential (Nightmare Saddle, Spectral Cure All, Shadow Abigail potion, cursed form) while animation cancelling and utilizing Team Spirit in order to beat Armored Bearger in 1:29 seconds.

In my video, I don't use Nightmare Saddle Beefalo, don't use Shadow Abigail, the extra damage from murder, don't use team spirit, don't animation cancel. All I do is forget Abigail existed fight Armored Bearger exactly the same as anyone would with Wilson or Wolfgang and I end up beating it even faster than you did (1:20).

That's the problem with giving Abigail the player tag.