Aquatuner + Steam turbine Power Positive (Bug?)

[goatt]

When I tried to restrict Thermal Aquatuner's wire to 1000W via a small transformer, it draws power like this:

-200W => wait 6s => -200W => wait 6s => -200W => wait 6s => -200W => wait 6s => -200W => COOLING

Essentially, it draws a total of 200W x5 power for cooling a packets of liquid.

 

If I use supercoolant, it will result in 14% extra power rather than the normal 5% power loss, because it uses 1000W rather than 1200W

 

Because the cooling single Tuner is x30 more slower, I can connect multiple Tuner on a single wire like this (best insulation to avoid interference), and the steam chamber's temperature was indeed steadly increasing.

Not sure how much power molecular forge would draw.

[mitboy]

Yeah you can also easily get free power with tuned up steam turbine

[ghkbrew]

Machines doing more work than they should when the power is inconsistent is a known bug.  I don't think I've seen the exact dynamics explored before.  I wonder if we could "optimize" it.

[Saturnus]

17 hours ago, ghkbrew said:

Machines doing more work than they should when the power is inconsistent is a known bug.  I don't think I've seen the exact dynamics explored before.  I wonder if we could "optimize" it.

You can use the liquid pipe sensor timer loop with buffers and filters to get the power consumption of an AT down to 400W without affecting throughput.

Or the old constantly switched transformer trick that reduces the power consumption to about 5% but cuts the throughput by 50%, so 60W for the AT but effectively 120W when compared on equal throughput.

You can find both described in the wiki gg under hidden mechanics. 

[Hedning1390]

On 12/15/2024 at 11:50 AM, mitboy said:

Yeah you can also easily get free power with tuned up steam turbine

How is that fee? Is the hamster wheel also free?

[Primalflower]

2 hours ago, Hedning1390 said:

How is that fee? Is the hamster wheel also free?

tuning up a generator of any kind will multiply their output by 1.5x without additional resource consumption. Similarly to farm stations but for machines. turbine is no exception.

[Hedning1390]

43 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

tuning up a generator of any kind will multiply their output by 1.5x without additional research consumption. Similarly to farm stations but for machines. turbine is no exception.

I know you can tune it. That's what he said too. I didn't ask how much the tuning boost was, but how you tune for free?

When I tried tuning it not only cost resources. The dupe also spent a lot of time on it. So from my experience tuning is very expensive. The polar opposite of "free".

[Primalflower]

16 minutes ago, Hedning1390 said:

I know you can tune it. That's what he said too. I didn't ask how much the tuning boost was, but how you tune for free?

When I tried tuning it not only cost resources. The dupe also spent a lot of time on it. So from my experience tuning is very expensive. The polar opposite of "free".

I think you are getting a bit lost trying to extrapolate a different meaning from the statement due to the obvious conclusion being wrong in your eyes, but it isn't, just maybe not as all-encompassing as you would want. By "free", we meant that a generator which is tuned up, will generate extra power, without consuming resources, meaning some power is achieved without the usual cost, I. E. Free. That is the beginning and end of the thought. Any consideration towards the .5kg of metal per cycle cost of tuning a generator was simply not part of the thought.

Also, regardless of how highly you hold in regard that metal cost & dupe time requirement, bionic duplicants generate microchips for free. So by that case, it is free.

[Hedning1390]

21 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I think you are getting a bit lost trying to extrapolate a different meaning from the statement due to the obvious conclusion being wrong in your eyes, but it isn't, just maybe not as all-encompassing as you would want. By "free", we meant that a generator which is tuned up, will generate extra power, without consuming resources, meaning some power is achieved without the usual cost, I. E. Free. That is the beginning and end of the thought. Any consideration towards the .5kg of metal per cycle cost of tuning a generator was simply not part of the thought.

Also, regardless of how highly you hold in regard that metal cost & dupe time requirement, bionic duplicants generate microchips for free. So by that case, it is free.

Something isn't free if you are doing work for it. Stop calling it free. That is misleading to the point of lying. It's not free because it has some other cost neither. What kind of logic is that? That's the logic of a scammer trying to pull one over on me. Where do you even learn such language? Too much time watching ads I guess. Companies try to sell you "free" stuff all the time, that somehow manages to still send people spiraling into debt. And now you adopt that same logic. This is why people are still struggling even though we have increased productivity by orders of magnitude. Man you people make me angry.

That's why I asked if the manual generator was free. Because that also mainly cost dupe time. I don't think you people would call the manual generator free, because you can't trick anyone with that lie.

[Primalflower]

2 minutes ago, Hedning1390 said:

Something isn't free if you are doing work for it. Stop calling it free. That is misleading to the point of lying. It's not free because it has some other cost neither. What kind of logic is that? That's the logic of a scammer trying to pull one over on me. Where do you even learn such language? Too much time watching ads I guess. Companies try to sell you "free" stuff all the time, that somehow manages to still send people spiraling into debt. And now you adopt that same logic. This is why people are still struggling even though we have increased productivity by orders of magnitude. Man you people make me angry.

are you okay?

it aint that serious friend

[JoeW]

Please keep posts constructive, on-topic and polite without making it personal. Thanks. 

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/guidelines/

[Hedning1390]

10 hours ago, Primalflower said:

are you okay?

it aint that serious friend

You don't have to fake concern for me. I explained my point and why it is serious.

[mitboy]

...

Anyway, for the topic at hand, im not sure if how one would go about fixing (?) something like this. Maybe if AT takes into account SCH of the coolant, so it awlays removes specific amount heat, though this would make it so the only advantage of Super coolant is temperature range, and it would make ATs significantly less powerful. 

Alternatively, the power drain of AT may be relative to the SCH of the coolant. Probably this is something harder to implement. 

 

[Tigin]

5 hours ago, mitboy said:

...

Anyway, for the topic at hand, im not sure if how one would go about fixing (?) something like this. Maybe if AT takes into account SCH of the coolant, so it awlays removes specific amount heat, though this would make it so the only advantage of Super coolant is temperature range, and it would make ATs significantly less powerful. 

Alternatively, the power drain of AT may be relative to the SCH of the coolant. Probably this is something harder to implement. 

 

I feel you might be confused by OP's usage of "tuner". This is not about Engie's Tuneups being a net power gain when used on Steam Turbines combined with aquatuners - This is aquatuners performing more work than they should given the power available

[mitboy]

2 hours ago, Tigin said:

I feel you might be confused by OP's usage of "tuner". This is not about Engie's Tuneups being a net power gain when used on Steam Turbines combined with aquatuners - This is aquatuners performing more work than they should given the power available

Yeah I get that but in any case I think you need SCH higher than water to make power positive loops. So this should apply both to tuning and this exploit

[Tigin]

2 minutes ago, mitboy said:

Yeah I get that but in any case I think you need SCH higher than water to make power positive loops. So this should apply both to tuning and this exploit

This exploit allows for near-zero power consumption regardless of the coolant used. I don't consider Engie Tuneups an exploit as it has very real and costly tradeoffs. A direct approach to address OP's topic would be to make thermo aquatuners honest with the power they consume. Given how long this bug's been around I doubt this will ever show up on Klei's radar though.

[Maxposting]

13 hours ago, Hedning1390 said:

I explained my point and why it is serious.

I too am disillusioned with how the world is organized rn but I don't think lashing out at a random person who just said "free" is okay, especially when the person probably has just as much say in the matter as you do.
A lot of people call it free energy despite of the tune-up requirements, because it ends up generating extra energy and violating thermodynamics, and sure it's not ideal wording but... Oh well? It's shorter and I think most people understand that it's not literally costless energy, though at some point people consider it to be costless, with all the metal volcanos and bionics and such.

[Hedning1390]

On 12/20/2024 at 9:12 PM, Maxposting said:

I too am disillusioned with how the world is organized rn but I don't think lashing out at a random person who just said "free" is okay, especially when the person probably has just as much say in the matter as you do.
A lot of people call it free energy despite of the tune-up requirements, because it ends up generating extra energy and violating thermodynamics, and sure it's not ideal wording but... Oh well? It's shorter and I think most people understand that it's not literally costless energy, though at some point people consider it to be costless, with all the metal volcanos and bionics and such.

So answer if you consider the manual generator free. And if you don't consider the manual generator free; then explain what makes it not free while tune-ups are.

[Vertel]

Please stop trying to start a pointless fight over semantics.