【A survey for 3 follower character(WebberWillowWendy)】Player tag is NOT OP for Abi, keep it same as its current stage.

[Steorra]

1 minute ago, Koomin said:

Because we are both playing the same game, and having it designed this way is not fun for how I enjoy playing games.  It is only fun for how you enjoy playing games.  The recent updates and making Wendy stronger and stronger made the character and game worse for me.  It "nerfed" my enjoyment of the game.  Does that make sense?  The design needs to be enjoyable for both types of players, not just your way.

then there would be another argument about the giant worm.

"if you don't like it, you could just turn it off, you would got no harm for this action"

same for some particular skills.

[Koomin]

1 minute ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

The player tag is not forced to open. If you don't like it, you can put other flowers in the urn.

There are two kinds of potions to restore Abi's health. If you think that Abi, who opens the player's tag, does not need a large bottle of blood recovery medicine, then you can choose a small bottle. Why deprive you of another right to play?

Because having mechanics and parts of the game that could be a fun design and experience that I am not able to use is not fun for me either.  I would rather the ability is changed so that both of us can select it and enjoy it, rather than leave it so only you enjoy it.  The fact that we currently both play and enjoy this game makes it clear that this is possible if the design is correct.

[Koomin]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

then there would be another argument about the giant worm.

"if you don't like it, you could just turn it off, you would got no harm for this action"

same for some particular skills.

Yes I agree that "if you don't like it, just turn it off" is not great design if half of the player base is turning it off.  (Although it's totally valid and nice that it is an option for stuff that a small percentage of people want off)

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

2分钟前，Koomin说：

因为我们都在玩同一个游戏，以这种方式设计它对我喜欢玩游戏的方式来说并不有趣。这只是你喜欢玩游戏的乐趣。最近的更新和让Wendy越来越强大，对我来说，角色和游戏变得更糟。它“使”我对游戏的享受。那有意义吗？设计需要让两种类型的玩家都感到愉悦，而不仅仅是你的方式。

What you think is powerful is not forced to open. You can choose not to use.

The meaning of the skill tree is to increase the upper limit of the role.

 

[Steorra]

Just now, Koomin said:

Yes I agree that "if you don't like it, just turn it off" is not great design if half of the player base is turning it off.  (Although it's totally valid and nice that it is an option for stuff that a small percentage of people want off)

Guess this make sense. 

We need more valid survey later. But I hope we won't spamming too many polls which would nerfing the meaning of every of them.

[Koomin]

1 minute ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

What you think is powerful is not forced to open. You can choose not to use.

The meaning of the skill tree is to increase the upper limit of the role.

 

I just answered this question.  It seems we are not really communicating effectively so just going to leave this discussion here since I think I've shared my views.

[Lardee]

This is an apples to orange comparison.

 

Bernie has better single-target defense than Abigail. Against hordes, Abigail is far superior. When it comes to offense Bernie is completely outclassed. Abigail boosts Wendy's damage by 54% and has a huge, fast AoE attack that out-dpss Bernie.  And you have way more control over Abigail. So Abigail has major advantages over Bernie which is why it makes sense he's better in some areas.

 

It's the same with spider armies. They have much better defenses against Abigail, but they also have major weaknesses. They are even worse off against AoE than Abigail, have additional weaknesses like boss roars, fire and ice and unlike Abigail, they take way more prep time to get and if they get killed, you have to start from scratch.

[Steorra]

50 minutes ago, Lardee said:

It's the same with spider armies. They have much better defenses against Abigail, but they also have major weaknesses. They are even worse off against AoE than Abigail, have additional weaknesses like boss roars, fire and ice and unlike Abigail, they take way more prep time to get and if they get killed, you have to start from scratch.

These all weakness you've said have their particular methods to deal with. And spiders are not worse than Abi when facing AOE damage. Nurse spiders gave invisible healing amounts and I guess the effect from this would far beyond your imagination.

The spider collecting thing is just a basis feature of Webber like what Wendy have to do with pipspooks. That is not that hard and I think that would be buff like pipspooks line when Webber's skill tree coming.

If you want to know more about Webber techniques for easy spider collecting, or you want to know more details about how Webber overcome the weaknesses of spiders, I may go search something from bilibili for you.

[Lardee]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

These all weakness you've said have their particular methods to deal with. And spiders are not worse than Abi when facing AOE damage. Nurse spiders gave invisible healing amounts and I guess the effect from this would far beyond your imagination.

I mean, Abigail's weaknesses also have particular methods to deal with.

If the AoE damage isn't strong or fast, then you're right, spiders are better at tanking it. Scrappy or Nightmare Werepig come to mind.

However, if it's really strong like say a powered up Toadstool, Enraged Dragonfly's fire attack, Celestial Champion's spin, one attack and all your spiders are dead while Abigail usually survives.

Quote

The spider collecting thing is just a basis feature of Webber like what Wendy have to do with pipspooks. That is not that hard and I think that would be buff like pipspooks line when Webber's skill tree coming.

Huh? I don't think anyone who's played webber and wendy would agree that building your spider army is as easy as getting pipsooks. It usually takes days to get an army of spitters, warriors/danglers and nurses if you're starting from scratch.

[Steorra]

6 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Huh? I don't think anyone who's played webber and wendy would agree that building your spider army is as easy as getting pipsooks. It usually takes days to get an army of spitters, warriors/danglers and nurses if you're starting from scratch.

The point is that Wendy now have skills for easier mourning glorious farming, but she was hardly to do this before the skill tree.

Spider dens could be relocated near your base but grave can't without skill tree. When skill tree for Webber is coming I believe there would be more QoL changes for his army building.

[BudinDePan]

Now is Webber dragged into all this nonsense? 

Also just for you know, the main "weaknes" of webber is pc limitations, no one likes to play as laggy as ur video is, and no low end pc can handle such big armies. Its not only about entities, wich is ofc part of the problem, but because aparently (i say aparently because im not a code guy but this was explained by code people) spiders are particulary laggy, more than any other follower, because they are constantly checking internally for food, thus a lot of lag (again, words might be odd coz im note a code guy but thats what i understood). 

[Steorra]

10 minutes ago, BudinDePan said:

Now is Webber dragged into all this nonsense? 

Also just for you know, the main "weaknes" of webber is pc limitations, no one likes to play as laggy as ur video is, and no low end pc can handle such big armies. Its not only about entities, wich is ofc part of the problem, but because aparently (i say aparently because im not a code guy but this was explained by code people) spiders are particulary laggy, more than any other follower, because they are constantly checking internally for food, thus a lot of lag (again, words might be odd coz im note a code guy but thats what i understood). 

Im sorry, I could feel your pain about the spider latency.

I do hope we could have some code fixing when Webber skill tree comes, just like what Klei trying to fix the controller issue in current beta

[Yifei_]

14 minutes ago, BudinDePan said:

the main "weaknes" of webber is pc limitations

Indeed, I really don't want Webber or Wurt to appear on my server. There are always players bringing swarms of spiders or Merms to the base, which then causes the server to lag terribly. Other players also have to be very careful to avoid accidentally harming the spiders and Merms... Their skill trees should focus on enhancing the combat capabilities of individual followers, rather than relying on sheer numbers to solve problems.

[BudinDePan]

6 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Im sorry, I could feel your pain about the spider latency.

I do hope we could have some code fixing when Webber skill tree comes, just like what Klei trying to fix the controller issue in current beta

yeah i really hope they could fix that particular thing on spiders.Webber is potentially really really strong with "minimal" investement (for reference, your own video) but I play mostly multiplayer and people isnt happy when doing 30-40 spiders so even me being a main webber with over 4000 hours as him (i really like him!) most of he time im just wilson that eats monster meat because i dont get to use much spiders, and playing with little have little uses (dragonfly ie is doable fine with 8-10 nurses and wall) and its sad.
well not really sad, webber is just that lovable 

[Yifei_]

24 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Spider dens could be relocated near your base but grave can't without skill tree. When skill tree for Webber is coming I believe there would be more QoL changes for his army building.

I remember seeing some Webber players in certain DST PVP videos who were able to build their spider armies at an incredibly fast pace, amassing a considerable amount of spider combat power in less than two days. In this PVP setting, aside from reducing the generation of world resources, there haven't been many modifications to the original gameplay. It seems that the cost of maintaining a spider army is not that high.

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Jg4y1b7Je/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click&vd_source=f884ebc672791f945164ca8603a33ba8
And this PVP match was really quite exciting!

[Yifei_]

35 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

In this PVP setting, aside from reducing the generation of world resources, there haven't been many modifications to the original gameplay.

With very few resources generation, extremely short seasons, boss strengthening, 14 players in the same world, and 7 of them being hostile to you. Even now, I still marvel at how excellent and skilled these PVP players are under such difficult conditions.

[Jakepeng99]

Make this multiple choice please. Also you forgot Wurt, the most broken of them all.

[Steorra]

11 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Make this multiple choice please. Also you forgot Wurt, the most broken of them all.

the reason I haven't mention wurt is because of lack of her videos.

[Jakepeng99]

Just now, Steorra said:

the reason I haven't mention wurt is because of lack of her videos.

Huh? There is lots of Wurt videos. Way more than Bernie or Webber.

[Steorra]

1 minute ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Huh? There is lots of Wurt videos. Way more than Bernie or Webber.

I mean I haven't tested her by myself.

[Jakepeng99]

11 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I mean I haven't tested her by myself.

Summary: Kills things in a few seconds really easily. It’s only a one time resource investment to shiver this absurd power.

[KrazJoe]

Not defending Abi, but...

Bernie is just extra, even without him, Willow's Shadow Fire Raiser destroy everything with range. Easily get ember with bees.

As for spiders, don't forget that they can wear hats.

 

[Mysterious box]

5 hours ago, Steorra said:

These all weakness you've said have their particular methods to deal with. And spiders are not worse than Abi when facing AOE damage. Nurse spiders gave invisible healing amounts and I guess the effect from this would far beyond your imagination.

The spider collecting thing is just a basis feature of Webber like what Wendy have to do with pipspooks. That is not that hard and I think that would be buff like pipspooks line when Webber's skill tree coming.

If you want to know more about Webber techniques for easy spider collecting, or you want to know more details about how Webber overcome the weaknesses of spiders, I may go search something from bilibili for you.

Boss screeching stops the healing of nurses, as does burning and freezing. Also high dps bosses can just out damage their healing and unlike Abigail you can't hide them during dangerous situations or shrug off a death with a single item. Something these comparisons also fail to bring up is even in the worst of scenarios you could just unsummon abigial and heal her.

1 hour ago, KrazJoe said:

As for spiders, don't forget that they can wear hats.

This isn't a realistic option even just using football helms that's 1 pigskin and and 1 rope per spider. There's a very good reason people don't make armor for followers and Wurt needed a special structure that made them for cheap.

[Steorra]

12 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

 Also high dps bosses can just out damage their healing

This is only true for toad if you leave its mushroom trees along. 

Helmets are still an extra options when you have end game farms.

12 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Boss screeching stops the healing of nurses, as does burning and freezing. 

Technically we could easily avoiding the buring part from dragonfly. I don't think this make sense for the discussion.

And you already see that how easily to dealt with freezing.

Screeching is still have a method to deal with, which is far more easier to learn than kiting Abi in lunar bearger battle.

 

12 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

 even in the worst of scenarios you could just unsummon abigial and heal her.

Usually we call this scenario as a failed of "don't be Wes" challenge.

[Mysterious box]

9 minutes ago, Steorra said:

This is only true for toad if you leave its mushroom trees along.

And have to remind that spiders could equip helmets.

Toad is not the only high dps boss.

Also go on show me a run where you keep your spiders armored with football helms I dare you.

9 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Technically we could easily avoiding the buring part from dragonfly. I don't think this make sense for the discussion.

And you already see that how easily to dealt with freezing.

Klaus does freezing and burning, as do salamander at least for the burning part and I'd imagine we'll eventually get more in the future.

9 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Screeching is still have a method to deal with, which is far more easier to learn than kiting Abi in lunar bearger battle.

 Considering we have multiple bosses that disable spiders this way would you mind telling me how? What's your method specifically?

Also to add on to this without a player tag armor is only ever going to make spiders able to take 2 to 4 hits before the helmet breaks so just a heads up for if you do that run with spiders wearing armor.