【A survey for 3 follower character(WebberWillowWendy)】Player tag is NOT OP for Abi, keep it same as its current stage.

[Steorra]

Since the argument going to introduce Spiders and BERNIE! into a comparison with current Abi with player tag, let us begin some simply test:

This is how Spiders perform as tanky followers when facing lunar deerclop. (Yeah, tanky units killed the lunar bosses in 3mins with only 2 fire staffs)

I was never touched Webber after his rework. So I guess I'm completely noob for him. 

Someone told be that there's no need to use such massive amounts of nurse spiders - just little of them, with more other attacker spiders, the result would be far more crazy, also the preparing phase would be far more cheaper.

This is how BERNIE! perform as a tanky follower without tanky skills when facing lunar deerclop.

for 3 mins surviving, only 40% of a sewing kit was consuming. 

I'd list my skill set for this test below - no tanky skills involved.

And for last, here's how Abi performed in current stage. You may check the lunar deerclop part of the videos inside that thread, which was spamming Cure-All.

 

 

[WenericMember]

 I think ive made my stance pretty clear here, but Abigail isnt designed as a facetank. it what makes her unique to willow and bernie. The main point of my thread you linked is thay regardless of how broken it makes Wendy, it erodes her playstyle to be more akin to other survivors. 

Thats why i think the skill is poorly designed in its current state. It isnt making kiting accesible/more lenient. Its turning Abigail into a powercrept Bernie.

[Koomin]

I guess I fail to see how using 100 spiders and a fire staff is a relevant comparison here.  Or how showing that Bernie, who is meant to be tanky, dying faster than Abigail, who is meant to deal area of effect damage (or just extreme damage in general now as shadow) and is always active, is proving your point. These examples seem to actually even more prove that it is too strong?

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

Some people shout the slogan of "balance" and then do "excessive balance" things behind their backs.

Shouting "balance" but overly suppressing a character

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

 I think ive made my stance pretty clear here, but Abigail isnt designed as a facetank. it what makes her unique to willow and bernie. The main point of my thread you linked is thay regardless of how broken it makes Wendy, it erodes her playstyle to be more akin to other survivors. 

Thats why i think the skill is poorly designed in its current state. It isnt making kiting accesible/more lenient. Its turning Abigail into a powercrept Bernie.

I don't think basis surviving ability is equal to "facetank".

other followers need no spamming management but Abi need. there's an exactly difference between them.

4 minutes ago, Koomin said:

I guess I fail to see how using 100 spiders and a fire staff is a relevant comparison here.  Or how showing that Bernie, who is meant to be tanky, dying faster than Abigail, who is meant to deal area of effect damage (or just extreme damage in general now as shadow) and is always active, is proving your point. These examples seem to actually even more prove that it is too strong?

It was only 40. And it was "too many for the test" as some Webber main told me.

I'm a completely noob for Webber, I'm sorry.

Also spiders are far more cheaper than your imagination as I guess. It may help if you just go search some technique of spiders collecting.

 

Then about BERNIE!, I leant no tanky skills for them. 

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

Balance should not be used as a reason for these people to bully the characters.

 

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, Koomin said:

I guess I fail to see how using 100 spiders and a fire staff is a relevant comparison here.  Or how showing that Bernie, who is meant to be tanky, dying faster than Abigail, who is meant to deal area of effect damage (or just extreme damage in general now as shadow) and is always active, is proving your point. These examples seem to actually even more prove that it is too strong?

Shadow abi is another topic which doesn't make sense of survival argument.

[WenericMember]

6 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I don't think basis surviving ability is equal to "facetank".

other followers need no spamming management but Abi need. there's an exactly difference between them.

It was only 40. And it was "too many for the test" as some Webber main told me.

I'm a completely noob for Webber, I'm sorry.

Also spiders are far more cheaper than your imagination as I guess. It may help if you just go search some technique of spiders collecting.

 

Then about BERNIE!, I leant no tanky skills for them. 

Facetanking is fighting without intention to dodge, thats all. Using potions is irrelevant to the concept. Lardee showed thats now possible, and that should be removed. Plus, also mentioned in the other post, it kills potion and alignment diversity.

Toning down potions while lune blossoms are in effect should be a good enough solution.

[Steorra]

1 minute ago, WenericMember said:

it kills potion diversity.

Wasn't that some of your test just showed that you have to spamming potions for facetanking?

2 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

and alignment diversity.

Not sure about this part. Do you mean about affinities line diversity? I have no interest for both Lunar or Shadow Abi.

[Koomin]

7 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I don't think basis surviving ability is equal to "facetank".

other followers need no spamming management but Abi need. there's an exactly difference between them.

It was only 40. And it was "too many for the test" as some Webber main told me.

I'm a completely noob for Webber, I'm sorry.

 

Then about BERNIE!, I leant no tanky skills for them. 

It seems like:

You used way too many spiders for the Webber test like you said, so it doesn't really show anything.

You didn't select the skills for tanky Bernie, and he turned out to be less tanky than Abigail.  I'm not sure what you were trying to show with this test.  Maybe you meant to select the tanky skills and show that Bernie was tankier?  Otherwise you are currently showing that Abigail is more tanky, and claiming that it is just because you didn't select the skills.

It is just not really clear what the point of the videos are or how they support anything.

[Xplan]

Just now, WenericMember said:

Facetanking is fighting without intention to dodge, thats all. Using potions is irrelevant to the concept. Lardee showed thats now possible, and that should be removed. Plus, also mentioned in the other post, it kills potion and alignment diversity.

Toning down potions while lune blossoms are in effect should be a good enough solution.

good enough? 

that's just a solution satisfies only few people. There are many people disagree with it, also disagree with nerfing Wendy.

[WenericMember]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Wasn't that some of your test just showed that you have to spamming potions for facetanking?

Not sure about this part. Do you mean about affinities line diversity? I have no interest for both Lunar or Shadow Abi.

Yes you need to spam potions, but you have to spam only spectral cure all. Vigour mortis and nightshade nostrum have basically no reason to be used anymore.

Even if lunar Abby gets fixed to be survivable, theres no reason to choose the lunar path bc Abigail can already survive without skill, which was the point of the lunar path.

[Steorra]

41 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Facetanking is fighting without intention to dodge, and that should be removed.

I don't think facetanking a boss which just a lesson for very newbie is OP.

And kiting bosses with completely fragile glass cannon Abi is not a healthy play style for most average player base - which I guess there's a need for starting another survey.

If you think some adjustment is needed, I'm glad to see that to nerf Wendy ability for early bosses but buff her for endgame bosses.

Even kill an early bosses with Wes could be relaxing for experienced players I have to say. They should not be considering as a balance factor in most situation.

36 minutes ago, Koomin said:

too many spiders

Sorry? I'm noob for Webber but I'm doesn't know nothing about him. 

40 spiders is just "normally" amounts for him. Never be "too many"

the original "too many" is just for nurses. it means that we need only about 8~10 nurses would be enough for other attacker spiders survive.

and more attacker means more faster the killing speed.

[Koomin]

9 minutes ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

Balance should not be used as a reason for these people to bully the characters.

 

No one is bullying the characters. We just have a different opinion of what makes games fun.   I enjoy playing games where I face challenges and feel accomplished when I defeat them.  It seems you enjoy feeling very powerful and defeating all enemies without a challenge.  Claiming that either opinion is bullying is weird.

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

论坛环境十分糟糕，很多为了角色来这里进行反馈的人，却遭到常驻论坛人的攻击，他们甚至可以不玩这个角色，但就是要为了反驳你而反驳，论坛的初心应该是为了更方便了解到玩家的心声，现在却变成了如果你提出质疑，他们会添油加醋把你视作敌对者，会说你不尊重游戏开发商，面对温蒂技能树众多的不满，他们看不见其中的原因，却把它归结为温蒂玩家太多了，不去好好思考为什么会出现这么多反馈，却在指责温蒂玩家出来反馈，简直倒反天罡，久而久之不会有人愿意再来这个地方进行反馈了！真是令人糟心的事情！

[Steorra]

2 minutes ago, Koomin said:

You didn't select the skills for tanky Bernie, and he turned out to be less tanky than Abigail. 

because BERNIE! is tanky for bosses and shadows at the same time, and BERNIE! has no continuously healing method which like Cure-ALL. But as the benefit for this downside, sewing kits are far cheaper than Cura-All.

You have to considering the difference here. There's no Shadow attacking Abi.

[Koomin]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

because BERNIE! is tanky for bosses and shadows at the same time, and BERNIE! has no continuously healing method which like Cure-ALL. But as the benefit for this downside, sewing kits are far cheaper than Cura-All.

You have to considering the difference here. There's no Shadow attacking Abi.

I'm still really confused.  You said Bernie is tanky for bosses and then showed him being less tanky.  Then said that he has no continuous healing, which makes him even weaker.  The only real "upside" you have mentioned is that sewing kits are very slightly cheaper than Cure-all, which is also so cheap that the comparison is not really relevant.  This post still seems to just show the opposite of what you are trying to prove.

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Even if lunar Abby gets fixed to be survivable, theres no reason to choose the lunar path bc Abigail can already survive without skill, which was the point of the lunar path.

I won't agree with your other opnions maybe, but I do agree that lunar Abi have a strange intention from the very beginning.

It seems if lunar Abi could did her job perfectly (Survived as invincible but killing time is tooo slow), someone would think this is OP because it's "free farm" for bosses (Even we have many other method with more effectiveness.)

And if lunar Abi still need management for help her survive, it seems no other advantage for her in current stage.

Lunar Abi need adjustment or rework, not simply nerf or buff.

[Koomin]

7 minutes ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

论坛环境十分糟糕，很多为了角色来这里进行反馈的人，却遭到常驻论坛人的攻击，他们甚至可以不玩这个角色，但就是要为了反驳你而反驳，论坛的初心应该是为了更方便了解到玩家的心声，现在却变成了如果你提出质疑，他们会添油加醋把你视作敌对者，会说你不尊重游戏开发商，面对温蒂技能树众多的不满，他们看不见其中的原因，却把它归结为温蒂玩家太多了，不去好好思考为什么会出现这么多反馈，却在指责温蒂玩家出来反馈，简直倒反天罡，久而久之不会有人愿意再来这个地方进行反馈了！真是令人糟心的事情！

You said that we are bullying Wendy by trying to balance her, I said that we play the game in different ways that are both valid, and you then said that you are being targeted and treated as a hostile.  This makes no sense.

[Steorra]

6 minutes ago, Koomin said:

I'm still really confused.  You said Bernie is tanky for bosses and then showed him being less tanky. 

Sorry, but this is not ture.

You may have 2~3 or even full of your inventory BERNIE! prepared, but Abi would just have one life.

Yeah then I guess we gonna to talk about the ghastly experience? I recommend deleting it. You and me seems both dislike this elixirs in this situation now.

Abi should only have one life for a particular boss combat, which means ghastly elixirs is strange. BERNIE! has many copy for a boss combat and this should be the difference for them comparing with Abi.

6 minutes ago, Koomin said:

 Then said that he has no continuous healing, which makes him even weaker.

This is only make sense for 1 BERNIE!. We all know that Willow would always prepare at least 2 BERNIE! for danger scenario.

 

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

刚才，Koomin说：

你说我们通过试图平衡温迪来欺负她，我说我们以不同的方式玩游戏，这两者都有效，然后你说你被盯上了，并被当作敌对对待。这毫无意义。

So why nerf another way of playing?

[Koomin]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

Sorry, but this is not ture.

You may have 2~3 or even full of your inventory BERNIE! prepared, but Abi would just have one life.

Yeah then I guess we gonna to talk about the ghastly experience? I recommend deleting it. You and me seems both dislike this elixirs in this situation now.

Abi should only have one life for a particular boss combat, which means ghastly elixirs is strange. BERNIE! has many copy for a boss combat and this should be the difference for them comparing with Abi.

That would be a step in the right direction and is a pretty reasonable take.  Happy to leave it here on agreeing somewhere!

[Steorra]

1 minute ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

So why nerf another way of playing?

I guess this a good question.

As someone said before, if someone think some skills would do bad impact to their game experience, they could just simply don't learn that skill.

But they asking for nerfing.

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

2分钟前，Koomin说：

你说我们通过试图平衡温迪来欺负她，我说我们以不同的方式玩游戏，这两者都有效，然后你说你被盯上了，并被当作敌对对待。这毫无意义。

The player tag is not forced to open. If you don't like it, you can put other flowers in the urn.

There are two kinds of potions to restore Abi's health. If you think that Abi, who opens the player's tag, does not need a large bottle of blood recovery medicine, then you can choose a small bottle. Why deprive you of another right to play?

[Koomin]

2 minutes ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

So why nerf another way of playing?

Because we are both playing the same game, and having it designed this way is not fun for how I enjoy playing games.  It is only fun for how you enjoy playing games.  The recent updates and making Wendy stronger and stronger made the character and game worse for me.  It "nerfed" my enjoyment of the game.  Does that make sense?  The design needs to be enjoyable for both types of players, not just your way.