discussion Should the slingshot be closer to melee dpm? If yes why? If no why?

[Mysterious box]

So I do want to start this off by I don't mean in terms of attack speed but the end result. I've seen arguments for both sides in other places but I wanted to see what the general consensus is here and the reasoning behind multiple people's views on it. Also please try to stay civil on this one.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

I think it's fine to use the Gloomerang as a benchmark, and his slingshot should be as good as or marginally better than it with post-rift rounds. Otherwise, just use the Gloomerang.

He can use the Gloomerang pretty well actually with all the slowdown rounds to keep up its higher damage ranges. I don't think this is unique enough to justify pulling new players to pick him up, though, but the Gloomerang does compete directly with the slingshot on Walter. The difference in range is a concern, though, and probably shouldn't be ignored.

It's actually his melee damage I have a problem with, over anything. I think he needs a valid reason to get off his mount and keep his slingshot as a swap for applying debuffs/status/utility. He needs some diversity in his options for combat. His current play style is just too... cowardly, I guess? And monotonous.

I think the ranged DPS option should be competitive, but his melee needs to be too. The benchmarks are much higher on melee, but he has no modifiers on it. The only other route to go is to lean very heavily into support, but he doesn't have a lot of that right now either.

Short answer: No, it should be weaker. But it's nuanced.

[Theukon-dos]

Yeah, I'd definitly say so. Range is extremely powerful, and the safety it and Woby provide definitly make the power DPS a fair tradeoff.

 

Also, gotta be honest. I don't really get the complaints about the Slingshot being too boring. Yes, fights with it do generally involve walking away and holding the attack button. But you've also just described 99% of the fights in the game. Not sure what's so special about this one.

[Copyafriend]

I agree a lot with @OMEGASCRUFFand @Theukon-dos

Dps does need to be weaker than melee, and i like a lot of their other points

 

But i want to add that some bosses are a lot more fun to fight at range than others. Nightmare werepig and some other bosses have a reaction to being hit that lends itself to a more active fight

Yeah some bosses shouldn't get more complicated, but i think its worth considering a buff to some bosses with ranged combat in mind

[IAmAFurrz]

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Also, gotta be honest. I don't really get the complaints about the Slingshot being too boring. Yes, fights with it do generally involve walking away and holding the attack button. But you've also just described 99% of the fights in the game. Not sure what's so special about this one.

because there is 0 risk, its like asking for everything in your life to be easy and completely done for you so you do nothing. the want for instant gratification is a neverending cancer 

[arubaro]

If you arent getting the same risks as fighting melee why it should have the same output? Is the same reason why gestal abigail needs to be nerfed 

[GamePlayer42]

27 minutes ago, arubaro said:

If you arent getting the same risks as fighting melee why it should have the same output? Is the same reason why gestal abigail needs to be nerfed 

"reworked to require more engagement" as the slingshot should be imo

[Mysterious box]

54 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

because there is 0 risk, its like asking for everything in your life to be easy and completely done for you so you do nothing. the want for instant gratification is a neverending cancer 

I can't really say I can fully agree not every fight is low risk with the slingshot and even then various characters have very low risk high reward gameplay that's not to say the game shouldn't be adapted to better suit the slingshot however.

12 minutes ago, GamePlayer42 said:

"reworked to require more engagement" as the slingshot should be imo

This definitely one way I can see them going as well.

[Kwaik]

I haven't messed around with Walters skilltree so I don't know the specifics of the ammo/slingshot add-ons 

But obviously the ability to kite very easy is factored into the DPS conversation. 

I think it could be interesting to incorporate some existing in game mechanics to address this in a balanced way. A very reasonable/simple way would be to have some kind of marble slingshot extension. Increasing damage by xyz% while decreasing movement speed by xyz%, both applicable while on mounts/Woby. 

That's always been a theme of DST benefits vs tradeoffs, while satisfying people who want more dps (and also providing better synergy for say group content) 

[Torpeda]

8 hours ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

I think it's fine to use the Gloomerang as a benchmark, and his slingshot should be as good as or marginally better than it with post-rift rounds. Otherwise, just use the Gloomerang.

Gloomerang does 99.4 DPS at max range on average with Void Robe and Void Cowl (70.72 DPS without the gear). From what I've tested you potentially can do up to 116.16 DPS with it, but you have to stand in a perfect spot, while Slingshot's damage is unaffected by range, using it does not require wearing any specific gear and when upgraded it has more range.

According to @Catuna_'s damage comparison post, Cursed Rounds, Shockscrap Rounds (against wet targets) and Brightshade Rounds have higher DPS than max range Gloomerang and both Dreadstone Rounds and Gunpowder Rounds do comparable amount of DPS (<5% difference). If we're talking about the Gloomerang without the gear, Marbles and anything above does more DPS.

If Gloomerang is to be used as benchmark, then Slingshot already does a better job at dealing damage. Unfortunatelly Pure Horror Rounds can't do the same level of damage as both Cursed Rounds and Brightshade Rounds, because Thulecite Frame's alternative attack makes them deal AoE damage instead.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

3 minutes ago, Torpeda said:

Gloomerang does 99.4 DPS at max range on average with Void Robe and Void Cowl (70.72 DPS without the gear). From what I've tested you potentially can do up to 116.16 DPS with it, but you have to stand in a perfect spot, while Slingshot's damage is unaffected by range, using it does not require wearing any specific gear and when upgraded it has more range.

According to @Catuna_'s damage comparison post, Cursed Rounds, Shockscrap Rounds (against wet targets) and Brightshade Rounds have higher DPS than max range Gloomerang and both Dreadstone Rounds and Gunpowder Rounds do comparable amount of DPS (<5% difference). If we're talking about the Gloomerang without the gear, Marbles and anything above does more DPS.

If Gloomerang is to be used as benchmark, then Slingshot already does a better job at dealing damage. Unfortunatelly Pure Horror Rounds can't do the same level of damage as both Cursed Rounds and Brightshade Rounds, because Thulecite Frame's alternative attack makes them deal AoE damage instead.

Perfect! I like those numbers. Though, I really hope to see Walter get a good damage-over-time round, which may end up overtuning his DPS a bit.

I wish we just got a more robust, deliberate selection of rounds from day 1, though. It would make fine-tuning numbers like this way easier. At this point, I have no idea what the future holds for Walter.

[Peasant]

Generally I reckon that if you can attack more safely, you should sacrifice something, either damage or chances of survival when under attack.

[Torpeda]

3 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Perfect! I like those numbers. Though, I really hope to see Walter get a good damage-over-time round, which may end up overtuning his DPS a bit.

 

I think it's not possible. I may be overthinking it, but I think Klei specifically made Cursed Rounds and Brightshade Rounds summon a tentacle (although they make sense thematically as well) to make them inconsistent against moving targets. They didn't add Fire Rounds either, which would be perfect as an alternative attack to further boost Walter's DPS.

[V2C]

We're actually going to test out improved attack speeds for Walter in our next patch.  In many cases, it just felt like the speed for range tradeoff just made things take longer but not necessarily harder.  Really hoping to get this patch out tomorrow to see how it plays out.  If he's too overtuned, it's setup in a way that makes it very easy to dial it back a bit.

[_mylilsunshine_]

So excited about it, hope that you guys aren't overworking to make it for the holiday! There will always be chances to tune Walter after the official launch.

15 minutes ago, V2C said:

We're actually going to test out improved attack speeds for Walter in our next patch.  In many cases, it just felt like the speed for range tradeoff just made things take longer but not necessarily harder.  Really hoping to get this patch out tomorrow to see how it plays out.  If he's too overtuned, it's setup in a way that makes it very easy to dial it back a bit.

 

[_mylilsunshine_]

1 minute ago, Fitzee said:

...Right?

I'll fight for it lol

[Tarnishedmax]

33 minutes ago, V2C said:

We're actually going to test out improved attack speeds for Walter in our next patch.  In many cases, it just felt like the speed for range tradeoff just made things take longer but not necessarily harder.  Really hoping to get this patch out tomorrow to see how it plays out.  If he's too overtuned, it's setup in a way that makes it very easy to dial it back a bit.

Will the increased attack speed be the main focus of his side of the patch or will we see some other neat stuff alongside this improvement?

[_mylilsunshine_]

25 minutes ago, Tarnishedmax said:

Will the increased attack speed be the main focus of his side of the patch or will we see some other neat stuff alongside this improvement?

Some stuff from the latest build's (4th) patch notes:

Quote

• Other things that didn’t make it into this build:
  • Slingshot Handles rebalancing
  • Using Slingshot Field Kit while mounted
  • Woby stuff

I imagine these were developed since build 3 but didn't make it to build 4, so there might be additional features developed in build 4 making it to build 5 as well.

[kroban]

3 hours ago, V2C said:

We're actually going to test out improved attack speeds for Walter in our next patch.  In many cases, it just felt like the speed for range tradeoff just made things take longer but not necessarily harder.  Really hoping to get this patch out tomorrow to see how it plays out.  If he's too overtuned, it's setup in a way that makes it very easy to dial it back a bit.

Any chance to make the scrappier frame special attack act more like a shotgun type of thing? Like not exacly aoe, but "the closer you are the more damage". The long range double damage is mostly used for cheese, and I think that making it the opposite of a gloomerang and more for close-range could make him more balanced and interesting post-CC, the frame would work as a subversion of the long range while being some "high risk high reward" mechanic.

And I mean, it even fits thematically, CC's lasers kind of do more damage the closer you are

[loopuleasa]

No

[kroban]

17 hours ago, arubaro said:

If you arent getting the same risks as fighting melee why it should have the same output? Is the same reason why gestal abigail needs to be nerfed 

Because at the end of the day for most people the slingshot is Walter's main damage dealer (I like to play him as hybrid with a slingshot mostly for utility, I think its way more fun that way). People don't want to play him because yeah you are not wasting as much resources as melee, but the fight takes way longer. And if u were to compare with the closest example, Maxwell farming everything out of spamming walls and shadows, atleast Maxwell has it way cheaper and does it faster than most melees.

I think Klei should let his slingshot damage run free for a while so more people check him out, then later maybe nerf him back to a balanced state, but atleast more people will have already checked that Walter isn't just "ranged damage", but the character with the most combat utility too.

Also this is just speculating but, considering the amount of new ranged things Klei has implemented lately, it could be the case that they will maybe add more ranged threats later down the road, so if they do this then Walter's high damage will make more sense, because atleast he would have more threats too.

[arubaro]

1 minute ago, kroban said:

Because at the end of the day for most people the slingshot is Walter's main damage dealer (I like to play him as hybrid with a slingshot mostly for utility, I think its way more fun that way). People don't want to use him because yeah you are not wasting as much resources as melee, but the fight takes way longer. And if u were to compare with the closest example, Maxwell cheesing bosses out of spamming walls and shadows, atleast Maxwell has it way cheaper and does it faster than most melees too.

I think Klei should let his slingshot damage run free for a while so more people check him out, then later maybe nerf him back to a balanced state, but atleast more people will have already checked that Walter isn't just "ranged damage", but the character with the most combat utility too.

Also this is just speculating but, considering the amount of new ranged Klei has implemented lately, it could be the case that they will maybe add more ranged threats later down the road, so if they do this then Walter's high damage will make more sense, because atleast he would have more threats too.

Maxwell shouldnt be taken into account,  is a mistake from klei

If you think that is a good idea to buff stuff with the plan of nerfing it in the future might be because you dont know how videogames communities work. Just see the group of kids that raided the forum because Wendy's skill tree didnt made her more unbalanced or the non sense when klei nerfed bunnymen dropping too much loot, etc

[Peasant]

4 minutes ago, kroban said:

I think Klei should let his slingshot damage run free for a while so more people check him out, then later maybe nerf him back to a balanced state, but atleast more people will have already checked that Walter isn't just "ranged damage", but the character with the most combat utility too.

I don't think buff first, nerf then is a good idea, people may simply use the character for the damage, when the damage is gone players would be gone too

7 minutes ago, kroban said:

Because at the end of the day for most people the slingshot is Walter's main damage dealer (I like to play him as hybrid with a slingshot mostly for utility, I think its way more fun that way). People don't want to play him because yeah you are not wasting as much resources as melee, but the fight takes way longer.

I reckon that Walter is actually "forced" to use slingshot, for he is too vulnerable to take damage, and the best way of "not getting hurt" is range weapons, and the slingshot is the most easily obtained range weapon for Walter

[Mysterious box]

8 minutes ago, kroban said:

Also this is just speculating but, considering the amount of new ranged things Klei has implemented lately, it could be the case that they will maybe add more ranged threats later down the road, so if they do this then Walter's high damage will make more sense, because atleast he would have more threats too.

Interestingly crystal deerclops is a good example of a threat like this as well though I do wonder if they'll go back to some older pre rift bosses to implement something similar as well as it would be a shame for most of the ranged threats to be post rift.

[Theukon-dos]

3 minutes ago, kroban said:

Because at the end of the day for most people the slingshot is Walter's main damage dealer (I like to play him as hybrid with a slingshot mostly for utility, I think its way more fun that way). People don't want to play him because yeah you are not wasting as much resources as melee, but the fight takes way longer. And if u were to compare with the closest example, Maxwell farming everything out of spamming walls and shadows, atleast Maxwell has it way cheaper and does it faster than most melees.

I think Klei should let his slingshot damage run free for a while so more people check him out, then later maybe nerf him back to a balanced state, but atleast more people will have already checked that Walter isn't just "ranged damage", but the character with the most combat utility too.

Also this is just speculating but, considering the amount of new ranged things Klei has implemented lately, it could be the case that they will maybe add more ranged threats later down the road, so if they do this then Walter's high damage will make more sense, because atleast he would have more threats too.

1. Walter's play rate wasn't wo low just because of his low DPS. It was a combination of that *and* the fact that using it was expensive as hell, which his changes address perfectly.

 

2. Maxwell is the most blatantly overpowered character in the game. Trying to use him as a reference for what character's should be capable of is a fool's errand. Though given that this is the whole reason Klei decided we need skill trees, I can't judge you too much.

A much better example in my Opinion is Wendy. Both her and Walter Trade DPS for safety and have mechanics that make sanity management far easier.

The main difference between them iss that Wendy can access Abigail for free, and that Abigail was extremely effective against certain types of monsters while generally being about as effective as a dead duck against more powerful boss monsters. While Walter needs to invest in his safety net. The Slingshot also lacks the same highs and lows that Abigail does, and not using it risks his sanity rather than a flat damage reduction. He also has more utility than Wendy does outside of Abigail thanks to Woby.

 

As it stands, I think Walter is in a very good spot right now. He's not as absurd as other characters pre-skill tree. But he never needed to be, he just needed (most of) his problems fixed. Which the skill tree did with flying colors.