Please bring back Wendy’s original Downside.

[Mike23Ua]

I am deeply worried that a lot of people just want these crazy crazy powerful characters with no actual downsides, but as you all probably know by now: I am a RogueLite/RogueLike enjoying gamer, and I enjoy having Downsides to things.

As a Wendy Main, both in Solo DS, And in DST.. I miss the Flower downtime, where Wendy had to wait for Abigail’s flower to blossom back out again before Wendy could summon Abigail to her side again.

This was a serious and quite impactful downside in the old days of Dont Starve, And a Wendy without Abigail being able to Aid her made her “hits weaker then average” downside actually matter.

You had to wait several in game days before Abigail was ready to be summoned again and I deeply miss this specific aspect of playing as the character.

Instead of fully reversing it (so the flowers drop to the ground or you need to kill an enemy near the dropped flower)

Wendy should just have new unique quotes when the player attempts to use the flower at different stages of it blooming, like “My sisters spirit is too exhausted right now, I should let her rest”

Or “Abigail is almost ready to play again, I just need to wait a little longer..”

Currently the game still has the blooming animations, but they only serve to raise Abigail’s health levels at different bloom stages.

Now Players can continuously summon Abigail Endlessly over and over again (they don’t even take sanity loss each time like Wickerbottom does while reading her books until she doesn’t have enough sanity to read her books!) 

I actually laugh when I see some posts about Abigail not being effective in a boss fight, these players have no idea what not being effective is when you were FORCED to go without Abigail’s assistance for a few days until she was ready to summon again. These days you can literally kill a boss by just continuing to summon Abby over and over again each time she dies, sure it may not be a very effective method to kill them, but it’s the fact you can do this at all that feels like Wendy became just a little bit TOO MUCH of a beginner friendly character who uses Abigail as a crutch the entire time.

This post may sound malicious or in ill faith or whatever, but I’m a Wendy Main and this is one of the things I actually go back to solo Dont starve to experience playing as her from time to time.

I was deeply wishing that the Sisturn part of her skill tree would restore the flower bloom cooldown timer, so Wendy players actually had to play the game WITHOUT Abigail from time to time… like in the old Don’t Starve days before her Rework.

And much like how Klei removed Wolfgang’s Speed from his core character and gave that back to him through Skill point investment should the player opt to pick up this perk…

I would be able to choose not to spec points into Sisturn to get back Infinite Abigail summoning.

It would be cool if it was something like:

Better Sisturn 1- Abigail’s flower blooms a little faster (from needing 6 game days to bloom out down to 4)

Better Sisturn 2- Accelerated bloom rate. (Abby can be summoned every 2 days)

Better Sisturn 3- Abigail can be summoned infinitely with no cooldown on bloom rate (like it is right now…)

This would allow people like myself to invest those 3 skill points Elsewhere, like I don’t know.. Giving Wendy Herself some unique perks outside of AoE Abigail?

you can explain it away like this:

Abigail is too weak to assist Wendy in direct combat, but while she rests she can lend Wendy some of her supernatural power to perform a variety of tasks..

Such as “Possession” Abigail rests inside wendys body and during this rest period can not be summoned out to aid in combat, however… Wendy gets some cool new powers as a result (Wendy blinks like characters do when first joining a server to indicate Abigail is fused with her..)

Possessed Wendy can levitate acrossed gaps (short distances only) this is just one idea.

But again, players will have to choose between the Infinite Summon timer like she has now, or cooler stuff she can do while Abigail is out of action.

And if none of that is possible: Then can you atleast nerf Wendy so that Everytime she summons Abigail endlessly that it costs Sanity or even health? (Like needing to revive a player over and over again with a telltale heart)

Because honestly… The ability to endlessly summon Abigail without any sort of requirements or restrictions completely killed any of the skill players of the OG DS would have had to learn.

No Wonder there are quite a few powerful voices who feel Wendy is OP and undeserving of a cool unique skill tree like Willows.

Please bring back the flower bloom rate downtime!

[Jakepeng99]

I feel like this downside might encourage base sitting, so im fine with abigail respawning with low max hp.

[grm9]

why do so many people that suck at the game complain both, about characters being strong and about enemies being strong, wanting both to become weak for making the game about as hard or even easier but more boring

[layangan putus]

You want downside? Just don't summon if she's dead until 3 days pass.. I suggest even more, don't spend any Insight, go control the weather to be hazardous & limit the resources, limit your diet to only meats or veggies also always reject sleeping? Dev team have rules but you don't need to embrace it, you can easily play by your own rules.. you buy this game and spend time to have fun & please by any means enjoy it to the fullest.

 

My reason wanting OP characters is due to disparity of experience between some fun playstyle and basic playstyle (it's inconsistent). I don't main any specific character because I want to experience these diverse characters and please no same strategy (rushing ruins-shadow pieces-nightmare werepig-afw-void sets-rushing whatnot). Let this said strategy viable for Wes, but for others.. I do really hope to have more options to strategize especially when it comes to fighting bosses or chillin' in the chaotic Constant.

 

Now by developing the ability of every character, the game can be played with the "old" strategy (go make your own rules) but still now we have more options. I say the dev team should increase 25% more of every bosses' health pool to counter animation cancelling & make each characters have crazy unique potential to deal with the Constant challenges. More new hazardous biomes, more creepy waves of dangerous mobs beyond day 100, more chaos for better survival experience, but importantly more unique solutions and more innovations.

[arubaro]

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

why do so many people that suck at the game complain both, about characters being strong and about enemies being strong, wanting both to become weak for making the game about as hard or even easier but more boring

Are you afraid of losing your confort zone?

I will tell you a secret,  there are people that are good at the game because inst that hard and didnt needed to go throw code, spam rollbacks on test worlds neither watch every YouTube video.

Some people want to feel a challenge when playing games instead of just going throw the same guaranteed win routine

But hey, making an effort can be scary and stressful, is just needed patience and being constant 

[Mike23Ua]

31 minutes ago, Sidoldi said:

You want downside? Just don't summon if she's dead until 3 days pass.. I suggest even more, don't spend any Insight, go control the weather to be hazardous & limit the resources, limit your diet to only meats or veggies also always reject sleeping? Dev team have rules but you don't need to embrace it, you can easily play by your own rules.. you buy this game and spend time to have fun & please by any means enjoy it to the fullest.

 

My reason wanting OP characters is due to disparity of experience between some fun playstyle and basic playstyle (it's inconsistent). I don't main any specific character because I want to experience these diverse characters and please no same strategy (rushing ruins-shadow pieces-nightmare werepig-afw-void sets-rushing whatnot). Let this said strategy viable for Wes, but for others.. I do really hope to have more options to strategize especially when it comes to fighting bosses or chillin' in the chaotic Constant.

 

Now by developing the ability of every character, the game can be played with the "old" strategy (go make your own rules) but still now we have more options. I say the dev team should increase 25% more of every bosses' health pool to counter animation cancelling & make each characters have crazy unique potential to deal with the Constant challenges. More new hazardous biomes, more creepy waves of dangerous mobs beyond day 100, more chaos for better survival experience, but importantly more unique solutions and more innovations.

I’m going to say this in the absolute most polite way I can but usually in most video games- Difficulty or Game Mode Settings actually Matter…

If you have never played “Book of Demons” then understand that you have different rules for each game mode. 

Sure I mean by your logic if I wanted to play a One Life Only version of a game I can just delete my game save file and achieve the same results, but it would not be as impactful as having an actual game mode that does that for you because some players simply do not have the Will power to “just don’t use it”

This is a lame excuse people continuously bring up, and ANYONE playing on Xbox as Wendy who threw her flower away and waited 3-4 days before summoning Abigail from it again would be labeled as a “troll” and would be reported to Xbox as being a Troll…(and being banned from Xbox live)

But if it was something the game forced the player to do without this silly “just don’t use it” suggestion you purpose, then your less likely to get reported as being said troll.

If Klei we’re to ever add a “downsides actually matter” mode to DST, I would expect nothing less but Wendy health core to be blackened out every time I was reckless enough to let Abigail die.

The entire POINT of the shields and the healing Elixirs are to in-fact: Not let that happen as often? <3

[Sacco]

1 hour ago, Sidoldi said:

You want downside? Just don't summon if she's dead until 3 days pass.. I suggest even more, don't spend any Insight, go control the weather to be hazardous & limit the resources, limit your diet to only meats or veggies also always reject sleeping? Dev team have rules but you don't need to embrace it, you can easily play by your own rules.. you buy this game and spend time to have fun & please by any means enjoy it to the fullest.

 

My reason wanting OP characters is due to disparity of experience between some fun playstyle and basic playstyle (it's inconsistent). I don't main any specific character because I want to experience these diverse characters and please no same strategy (rushing ruins-shadow pieces-nightmare werepig-afw-void sets-rushing whatnot). Let this said strategy viable for Wes, but for others.. I do really hope to have more options to strategize especially when it comes to fighting bosses or chillin' in the chaotic Constant.

 

Now by developing the ability of every character, the game can be played with the "old" strategy (go make your own rules) but still now we have more options. I say the dev team should increase 25% more of every bosses' health pool to counter animation cancelling & make each characters have crazy unique potential to deal with the Constant challenges. More new hazardous biomes, more creepy waves of dangerous mobs beyond day 100, more chaos for better survival experience, but importantly more unique solutions and more innovations.

Telling someone to straight up ignore one of the most fundamental parts of a character is honestly just non sense, you are just saying that a feature is badly designed if you say to ignore it.

Skill trees should offer different ways to play, with some downsides attached...

[aidancode]

While I do agree that downsides are extremely important things to have in this game, I'd recommend keeping in mind that DS and DST are NOT the same games. DS is a survival game where the primary goal is to deal with what the world throws at you and survive infinitely. DST is a survival RPG where the goal is to defeat bosses that you seek out to shape the world to your will. Old Wendy worked amazingly for DS, easily among the best characters for survival, but in DST she's weaker comparatively. That's why a downside for her in one game doesn't necessarily translate well to DST. Because Wendy is such a simple and early character, I think it's okay for her to not have a significant downside, but I think this criticism is well placed in other characters that perhaps aren't hit as hard anymore by their downsides.

[Digi62BR]

Posts like these have a serious problem, you want to impose your personal taste in difficulty on everything else as if the game was made for you. Wendy as she is currently is very interesting (I'm referring to the current one without the beta), nerf her even more because you think it's cool? 
Most people play to have fun, forget a bad day at work, don't starve together their difficulty but it's not dark souls and I hope it doesn't become one.

[Mike23Ua]

18 minutes ago, Digi62BR said:

Posts like these have a serious problem, you want to impose your personal taste in difficulty on everything else as if the game was made for you. Wendy as she is currently is very interesting (I'm referring to the current one without the beta), nerf her even more because you think it's cool? 
Most people play to have fun, forget a bad day at work, don't starve together their difficulty but it's not dark souls and I hope it doesn't become one.

The thing is… I’m not asking for dark souls or even more difficulty, I’m asking for them to restore the cooldown timer she once had already.

And if you want my advice the whole current beta skill tree seems stupid.. like no joke I can do longer Pipspook quests to yield more mourning glory resource drops.

That would be cool if the Elixers ever actual saw any use (comparing these to Willows Embers or Wortox Souls By the Way..) it’s a unique Wendy exclusive resource that even BEFORE the beta increased yields for them never actually saw much use.. 

So then, why can’t inserting exclusively mourning glory into the Sisturn instead of Flower Petals be used as a resource to boost Abigail?

Better yet… how about we make it so there has to actually be at least one Sisturn with a fuel source inside (flower petal, dark petal, mourning glory etc..) for Abigail’s flower to even start to bloom out?

The character requires no work at all after her refresh you just spawn in, tap summon.. reap rewards.

She NEEDS Balance…

And I’m a Wendy Main who isn’t afraid to ask she gets proper balancing.

[Sacco]

37 minutes ago, Digi62BR said:

Posts like these have a serious problem, you want to impose your personal taste in difficulty on everything else as if the game was made for you. Wendy as she is currently is very interesting (I'm referring to the current one without the beta), nerf her even more because you think it's cool? 
Most people play to have fun, forget a bad day at work, don't starve together their difficulty but it's not dark souls and I hope it doesn't become one.

It's an imposition even from the other point of view...

What i'm trying to say is that DST characters need downsides to make the game a bit more varied, because at this point there is no point in fighting bosses if you already having something more powerful than their loot from the start of the game...

[Dragonboooorn]

Reduce Wendy's max hp to 125. Why does 11 y o kid have same amount of endurance as adult man and woman? (Wilson, Woodie, Willow and Winona have 150 hp)

[gaymime]

24 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Why is Maxwell and Wes even worse?

maxwell is an elderly man who died before the begining of dst and wes is the challenge character meant to be for people who want a harder gameplay experience

[WenericMember]

I get what you're saying, but I don't think the solution is to reduce the interaction with what makes the character unique.

[Mike23Ua]

12 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I get what you're saying, but I don't think the solution is to reduce the interaction with what makes the character unique.

Therein lies the problem then isn’t it? I Co-Main Willow and if Bernie losses all of his durability and gets destroyed, I still have my trusty lighter, Fire immunity, and cool firemage spells until I can craft a sewing kit or new Bernie to replace him during his Downtime.

For ME Willow really is Wendy 2.0 I’m just sad that Wendy herself has to be so… idk, mind numbingly “Basic”?

[WenericMember]

36 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Therein lies the problem then isn’t it? I Co-Main Willow and if Bernie losses all of his durability and gets destroyed, I still have my trusty lighter, Fire immunity, and cool firemage spells until I can craft a sewing kit or new Bernie to replace him during his Downtime.

For ME Willow really is Wendy 2.0 I’m just sad that Wendy herself has to be so… idk, mind numbingly “Basic”?

My primary survivors are Wendy, Wortox and with skill trees, Woody & Willow.

That's the problem isn't it? Willow was originally a utility character, and her skill tree gave combat to mach Wendy's and a bunch more utility on top of what was in her base kit.

Then when Wendy's skill tree came, she got enough combat to match Willow debatably, but nothing in terms of utility in comparison.

[layangan putus]

3 hours ago, Sacco said:

Telling someone to straight up ignore one of the most fundamental parts of a character is honestly just non sense, you are just saying that a feature is badly designed if you say to ignore it.

Skill trees should offer different ways to play, with some downsides attached...

Author wants flower downtime so more downsides for Wendy excluding 25% weaker + Abi can't help fight shadow creatures but does everyone want the same? The way I see it, Wendy is okay and the nostalgic author wants more personal challenge & wow you can actually get creative to play by your own rules (Be practical & simply refuse to what dev team offer even if it's an offer you wouldn't refuse).

 

About a feature is badly designed, I don't understand what you mean about that because I never express any features being bad, I'm just grateful for what it is and try to get creative with it. Although, there is always a room for improvement like the author suggests (Abi possesses Wendy) perhaps for fighting bosses?

 

Next, I agree skill trees should offer more unique options but I disagree if they also offer downsides attached because there is already existing downside about choosing possible skills within 15 Insight (Woodie can't be effective fighter, harvester, & explorer at the same time; need moon rock idol or maybe make a skill reset scroll).

[Peasant]

2 hours ago, Dragonboooorn said:

Reduce Wendy's max hp to 125. Why does 11 y o kid have same amount of endurance as adult man and woman? (Wilson, Woodie, Willow and Winona have 150 hp)

Maxwell: What about me?

2 hours ago, gaymime said:

maxwell is an elderly man

He couldnt be older than the librarian who has 125hp, could he?

[purelove]

8 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

RogueLite/RogueLike

No, your thinking makes Wendy run away from a fight and mindlessly defeat a boss. I don't think you want to keep summoning at all like a RogueLite/RogueLike. I'm a Binding of Isaac: Rebirth player, you've gone from being a strong reverse to a cheat, and I don't like the way you've been evasive to fight, Wendy Master players have been very difficult to manipulate, and your behavior will turn most of the training into a pointless wait

In fact, the essence of RogueLite/RogueLike games is operation, and Wendy, if viewed from the perspective of RogueLite/RogueLike, is a character who has strong abilities in the early stages, but has little room for improvement, and only a few equipment items can significantly increase her. While your design is clearly trying to give Wendy power from the beginning, in fact, Wendy's real weakness is that she can easily deal with the early stages, but the equipment she gets doesn't augment her very well, but when dealing with the boss, her Abigail will disappear, making it weakened

[Mike23Ua]

2 hours ago, WenericMember said:

My primary survivors are Wendy, Wortox and with skill trees, Woody & Willow.

That's the problem isn't it? Willow was originally a utility character, and her skill tree gave combat to mach Wendy's and a bunch more utility on top of what was in her base kit.

Then when Wendy's skill tree came, she got enough combat to match Willow debatably, but nothing in terms of utility in comparison.

I treat Bernie and Abigail roughly the same way they’re both AI Followers, they Both require you to fill up an inventory spot for a specific item to summon them.

And prior to Wendy’s Rework which made using Abigail laughably effortless, both Willow and Wendy had to trigger their AI Companions under specific Conditions.

Willow needed to drop Bernie on the ground and lower her sanity by eating some mushrooms nearby to him, And Wendy needed to Drop Abigail’s Flower on the ground and murder a creature nearby to it to summon Abigail.

In Addition to that- When Bernie Died you would need to either craft a new Bernie or repair him with a Sewing Kit. When Abigail Died (before Rework) you had to wait until she could be summoned again after the flower blooms out.

Both Wendy & Willow have a specific recipe to craft additional Bernie’s and Additional Abigail Flowers However: Only Willow actually has an Advantage on this, (when one Bernie dies if multiple are placed on the ground a second will animate to life in its place.)

Where things fall apart is a Willow without a Bernie still has her lighter to suck up fires or smack enemies with non-spreading magic fire damage or use several firemage skills. A Wendy Without Abigail is objectively worse than Wes.

Wendy’s entire game design has become… Outdated, but the Devs won’t see that as long as they listen to the side of the fanbase screaming Wendy OP Please Nerf, Or Wendy needs to be Crazy powerful we Demand that she be Powerful! Etc…

They instead need to be listening to logic and fair reasoning with valid comparisons between similar characters and skill (as I have done above). <3

[WenericMember]

5 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And prior to Wendy’s Rework which made using Abigail laughably effortless, both Willow and Wendy had to trigger their AI Companions under specific Conditions.

Dated is the right word.

 

I agree with everything, but it's probably a good idea to note the Bearly Sane skills doesn't fully trivialize it, but def makes it fairly easy due to Willow's low sanity too, so thats not much of a difference.

[1007954611]

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

我对待 Bernie 和 Abigail 的方式大致相同，他们都是 AI 追随者，他们都要求你为特定物品填满一个库存点来召唤他们。

在 Wendy's Rework 让使用 Abigail 变得毫不费力之前，Willow 和 Wendy 都必须在特定条件下触发他们的 AI 同伴。

Willow 需要将 Bernie 扔在地上并通过吃他附近的一些蘑菇来降低她的理智，而 Wendy 需要将 Abigail's Flower 扔在地上并杀死它附近的生物来召唤 Abigail。

除此之外 - 当伯尼去世时，您需要制作一个新的伯尼或使用针线包修复他。当 Abigail 死亡时（在 Rework 之前），您必须等到花朵盛开后可以再次召唤她。

Wendy和Willow都有一个特定的配方来制作额外的Bernie's和额外的Abigail花，然而：只有Willow实际上在这方面有优势（当一个Bernie死亡时，如果多个Bernie被放在地上，第二个会在它的位置上复活。

事情分崩离析的地方是没有伯尼的 Willow 仍然有她的打火机来吸火或用不扩散的魔法火焰伤害击打敌人或使用多种火法师技能。客观上，没有阿比盖尔的温蒂比韦斯差。

Wendy 的整个游戏设计已经变得......过时了，但开发者不会看到这一点，只要他们听粉丝群尖叫 Wendy OP Please Nerf，或者 Wendy 需要疯狂强大，我们要求她强大！等。。。

相反，他们需要倾听逻辑和公平的推理，并在相似的角色和技能之间进行有效的比较（就像我上面所做的那样）。<3

不能这么比较

willow的主要能力是火，Bernie只是一个赠品性质的附加能力。

而wendy的所有能力都要依靠abgail，自身没有任何其他能力，如果abgail不能很快启动的话相处于wendy很长时间都只能处于一个白板的状态

 

You can't compare them like this. Willow's main ability is fire. Bernie is just an additional ability like a bonus. And all of Wendy's abilities rely on Abigail. She doesn't have any other abilities by herself. If Abigail can't start up quickly, Wendy will be like a blank slate for a long time.

[Dragonboooorn]

3 hours ago, YXukun said:

Maxwell: What about me?

 

3 hours ago, YXukun said:

Maxwell: What about me?

Maxwell is literally described as old and frail guy, whilst also apperently having bone disease. 

And as for Wes... I mean, hes a french twink. Oh hes also a challenge character or somth

[Sacco]

4 hours ago, Sidoldi said:

Author wants flower downtime so more downsides for Wendy excluding 25% weaker + Abi can't help fight shadow creatures but does everyone want the same? The way I see it, Wendy is okay and the nostalgic author wants more personal challenge & wow you can actually get creative to play by your own rules (Be practical & simply refuse to what dev team offer even if it's an offer you wouldn't refuse).

 

About a feature is badly designed, I don't understand what you mean about that because I never express any features being bad, I'm just grateful for what it is and try to get creative with it. Although, there is always a room for improvement like the author suggests (Abi possesses Wendy) perhaps for fighting bosses?

 

Next, I agree skill trees should offer more unique options but I disagree if they also offer downsides attached because there is already existing downside about choosing possible skills within 15 Insight (Woodie can't be effective fighter, harvester, & explorer at the same time; need moon rock idol or maybe make a skill reset scroll).

Telling someone to ignore a feature is not the key of the solution.

You are telling them to make the game ARTIFICIALLY HARDER.

[lio516]

You really think so? Repeatedly summoning Abigail to fight the boss? I can do it faster than that. At least I haven't seen anyone do it. It's stupid and a waste of time