Wendy is not strong

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

19分钟前，leo920101说：

已经进行了投票，超过200名玩家参加了投票。

56%的人认为Wendy的强大高于平均水平，几乎所有的玩家都认为她玩起来很有趣。

所以现在我猜你比任何人都更能分辨谁是OP，谁不是OP，是吗？

The truth is that if you want OP, you will choose Wolfgang instead of Wendy.

[Peasant]

8 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

True its SLIGHTLY better (68 x 1.25 = 85) than the dark sword per swing.

(You still can do this math yourself. Its forth grade math, which you seem to be missing the point of calculating the damage per minute instead of second or per hit)

At this improved dps, wigfrid does 12972 damage per minute.

Also known as being slightly worse as abigail + wendy at night (but like, only slightly, really they're tied)

Of course wendy + abigail and wigfrid both beat the charged elding spear with post rift weapons

 

(which i brought up and you ignored)

 

Which is why i dont care very much about the elding spear one way or another.

May I ask which target allows you to stand there and pressing F for one whole minute beside the punching bags? Or which post rift boss allows you to pressing F for one whole minute without killing you AND your past sister?

Dont starve's combat system decides that dph is more important, for the damage you deal often is'nt counted by time, but rather by how many times you are able to attack. For example the normal way of fighting Dragonfly is hit 6 times, evade 1 attack, not hit 3 seconds, evade 1 attack. Considering minor creatures such as spiders and hounds have a rather low hp dph is more important, but that's another thing.

10 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Then wendy would do less damage than wigfrid. I dont really see why you're bringing it up, this is the obvious weakness of abigail. Its not like this is some grand revelation that i didnt possibly consider. Yes if abigail dies wendy is weaker than wigfrid.

Some bosses wendy underperforms as a result.

Do you have a point with bringing this up? I said she's GENERALLY better PRE final bosses (even without the beefalo). Its like you ONLY read my last reply and ignore everything else i've ever said. 

I specifically didnt reply because there was no need to, it was kinda a dumb thing to bring up because yeah, obviously sometimes wendy underperforms, its called having a weakness.

And I'm arguing that the word GENERALLY is wrong, for if you want to achieve GENERALLY you have to make sure Abigail dont die and keeps her debuff working in GENERALLY every battle, which is a challenge in multiple boss battles. That's why I said that wendy has low lower limit and high higher... wait, upper, limit, while wigfrid had higher lower limit and lower upper limit.

17 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

And they call talking about things in practice without actually taking numbers into account "talking out of your ass"

You dont actually know or understand the math behind anything i said, i highlighted how wendy does more damage in general and enjoys a lot more quality of life in day to day fights and most bossfights compared to wigfrid.

Oh, so you're saying that when you canculating damage per minute you are taking numbers into account, and when I'm canculating dph I'm just "talking out of my ass"? Sound SO fair.

I not only highlighted how wendy can do more damage, but also highlighted how wendy CANNOT do more damage, which isn't even a problem when it comes to wigfrid. But clearly you didnt take it into consider and jumping to the conclusion that "wendy is generally stronger than wigfrid", which is not even dialectical.

28 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

it took me 10 minutes to calculate the damage per minute of each character,

You do realize you got a computer in your hands that can be used to Compute, right?

31 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

and my replies are all significantly longer than yours too. You are not matching my effort and are claiming that i'm not thinking something through when i'm clearly putting a lot more thought and effort into each post than you are.

The values of words lie not in its length, but in its... I forget the rest. And who said it. You dont have the priviliege of being wrong simply because you took effort for it.

Come to think again, you're not being entirely wrong, just not right enough thus making the theory fail when facing certain actual circumstances.

38 minutes ago, Sacco said:

please Bro stop this ridiculous thing.

Stop posting every single moment something related to chinese players.

Stop saying that they have the priority on klei's list, please, you seem desperate.

So you're saying that even though a group of people who DOES take the place of being the majority of one larger group, they are still should NOT be treated as priority simply because their number is the most? Then surely all the polls are useless now for the majority of players should not be the priority on the list!

[cyjs]

38 minutes ago, Sacco said:

请兄弟停止这种荒谬的事情。

别再每时每刻都发布与中国玩家有关的内容了。

别再说他们在克莱的名单上有优先权了，拜托，你看起来很绝望。

The whole Chinese community is desperate, you can observe, we are very disappointed with klei, regarding priority, I think everyone has equal power, and Chinese players are the majority of this game, we just never speak, don't be taken as such We don't exist, and most of us, most of us, don't We all have opinions on Wendy’s skill tree. We hope klei knows that if she gave Chinese players a reasonable feedback platform, we wouldn’t be here. If you have questions about us being the majority, you can go and investigate. This This incident is very serious. We are definitely more angry than you think.

[Jakepeng99]

16 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

The fact that you're replying to my claims of power creep by saying that she "only" deals more damage than the battlehardend Valkry just proves my point. Because that much damage used to be considered impressive, but now people are treating it like barely a footnote.

Edited 8 hours ago by Theukon-dos

It was sarcasm, i was supporting your point.

[arubaro]

6 hours ago, Tranoze said:

Soo destroy weak things consider op now? Torching entire forest without lifting a finger is equally as op as destroy waves of mobs. Same as forest, wave of mobs are just minding their own business before wendy come.

And demolish multiple waves? Without lifting a finger? The only waves of mobs abigail can safely destroy is basic spider. Abigail cant handle too much warrior spiders. Abigail also cant handle moonstone's wave alone. Abigail also cant handle splumonkey (shadow or not) if they come in multiple waves.
So no. Abigail doesn't demolish waves of mobs.

 

6 hours ago, YXukun said:

And bees, and...none.

If you can only do that we found the problem and isnt wendy

[Steorra]

4 hours ago, leo920101 said:

there has been a vote, over 200 player take part.

56% of them think Wendy is above average strong, almost all of the player think she is fun to play.

so now I guess you're just better than everyone to tell who's OP and who's not, are you?

It seems more like a math issue if someone think 56% vote rate as equal as "overpower".

[AliceMagtron]

15 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

90 of anything around you is going to block building placement

i think you'd at least know 100 of merms will keep distance from you to not blocking placement

[cropo]

6 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

No, that is not what i did. Your pseudomath hurts my head sir.

Your math on the elding spear is also terrible.

The elding spear does 59.5 damage before the damage multiplier, 68 (regular darksword damage on a lunge.

Its not even that good.

Doesn't the Charged Elding spear also give Wigfrid movement speed? I think that's pretty good. Not making a statement on Wendy vs Wigfrid but Elding Spear seems to be a pretty good jack of all trades item in general.

I think doing slightly below the BS sword/Dark Sword but also having a movement speed bonus > Raw damage from the BS sword myself.

[AliceMagtron]

13 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Splumonkeys? Pigs? Are you asking why anyone would build a mob farm to begin with?

then may i ask u why u have to give up a useful skill tree by leading 1 day AoE? are u a speedrun player or u choose wendy for speed run just for that? in fact, e.g. winona can craft trebuchet within 1 day, u just need to collect some minerals and twigs. wortox now can have 1 day AoE too by just simply kill a butterfly, and then u can use 2 Souls to farm bees to get more , then why they deserve a strong skill tree? also why do u need AoE for first day?  and if possible, i do happy to see that u need cost to summon abi or make abi do AoE dmg and make her better in late game.

[lio516]

于 2024 年 11 月 25 日上午 6：35，Bumber64 说：

第 1 天免费 AoE。你可以 AFK，Abigail 会为你杀人。

所以你是说你的游戏中唯一的选择就是与蜘蛛战斗？

[dst_lover]

I will get straight to the point when I made my post i didn’t made it clear in some point so I will make it clear now 

Wendy is not weak or bad but she is not op or strong she have a downside that is significant and doesn’t have many parks like high tiers she os mid and balanced 

I will compere her to another mid tier like wigfrid and a strong character like wolf and a low tier character like Wilson just to make everything clear I will but them all with skill trees and with no skill trees 

I will compere her most to wigfrid because she is the same tier as her to me and I will not take in consideration if the player is very bad to the point he can’t even survive the first winter or that he is very good to the point he can doge every attack and can perform animation cancel

let’s start with day in day 1-5 wigfrid have a lot of more opportunity then wigfrid to do what she went like fighting the dragon fly or go straight for ruins while Wendy she will not have any strong weapons because she will go for a beefalo and the fact that wigfrid start with a spear and her armour and have more stats overall will make her perform a little bit batter but to make it simple for the rest of the days we will say that wigfrid choose to tame a beefalo just like Wendy and she will probably tame a rider so this is a tie in day 5-20 she will perform worse the wigfrid because 1 she can’t deal more damage then her because the beefalo literally deal like 34 damage and even with the boost of Abigail she will deal the same  damage of wigfrid with 25% more damage + hambat that without mention of the 25 % protection and life steal some might say that Wendy can simply have a hambat but that is not worth it because if you will play as Wendy you will need to make sure your beefalo fight a lot to not become a rider and because wigfrid doesn’t mind a rider she will probably fight with weapons so to make it simple wigfrid will perform batter at the ruins and vs the dragon fly or ancient guardian the only boss that Wendy might perform batter at is bee queen and she might even perform batter then some high tiers in this fight and for the nightmare werepig Wendy might even perform even worse then Wilson a low tier character because if she did like 2 or 3 mistakes her beefalo is dead and her damage is not even high vs the nightmare werepig I didn’t mention this but wigfrid have more opportunity to help her teammates with her songs , 21 - 35 in those days I will say that wendy will probably perform a little bit batter then  wigfrid but you have to take in consideration some things the player that take wigfrid he probably killed more bosses before and clear the ruins and the player that is playing Wendy will probably start killing bosses like bee queen and dragon fly right now and you have to understand that in day 1-5 when we both of them tame a beefalo wigfrid probably have now a rider so she will have more speed then Wendy for ever , and Wendy will have to 1 wast some days for the war saddle if she is lucky she might make it fast and if she is not she will wast more days so to make it fair I will not take on consideration luck and you can yourself say how much days she will probably take to make the war saddle because without the war saddle her beefalo deal 50 damage and with Abigail she can deal more damage then wigfrid but not every time because some bosses might simply kill Abigail and some can simply knock her out of the beefalo but in basic survival Wendy have some advantages with her aoe because back then hound attack was nothing really and spiders dense were like level in the first days they were level 1 and in the last they were level 2-3 but now they are level 3 so u have to take those things in consideration but mostly those two characters will perform close because they will take most of their time making Perl quests but Wendy migh perform batter because of the bosses that are from this range and the fact that she probably will be at her peek right now and they both kill the shadow pieces in day 21 let’s say that both wigfrid and Wendy has was finished taming the beefalo in day 21 some how then Wendy will perform batter at the fight but wigfrid will save more time in getting the pieces and if they didn’t finish taming a beefalo then wigfrid simply will perform batter at the fight vs shadow pieces but overall Wendy will perform slightly batter or this is a tie ,and in day 36 -55 in that time most bosses are already dead the only in those day they both finish pearl quest and the both will fight AFW+Scrappy Werepig + crab king + CC because wigfrid have a faster beefalo she will save some time in the cc quest line and  for the AFW and crab king Wendy will perform batter but wigfrid will perform batter vs CC because Abigail can’t perform very good vs CC and the same goes for the Scrappy Werepig wigfrid will perform batter this will be tie but because wigfrid can only eat meat and the fact that Wendy will save more time in AFW and save some minutes in hound attack I will gave this to Wendy 

in post rift do I have to say how will perform batter ? Wendy does not only perform worse then wigfrid she also performs worse then some low tier characters like in some fights like armoured bearger because he both destroy Abigail and knock you out of the beefalo so you will have to fight him with 25% less damage without Abigail some bosses like cc at least you can use your beefalo to deal close damage like Wilson but I think this is the first boss that it’s so bad that even low tier characters can perform batter this round go easily for wigfrid 

overall she win some points over wigfrid but in numbers they just tie some bosses like bee queen and afw Wendy does very good batter then some high tier even but some bosses like the armoured bearger she perform very bad even worse the some high tier and some bosses like cc and both nightmare and Scrappy Werepig she performs slightly worse then wigfrid and some bosses like crab king she performs slightly batter then wigfrid but in the other hand wigfrid is always performing mid to good enough vs bosses to be overall they simply tie that both are mid and both are not weaker then Wilson or stronger then Wolfgang who is a real top tier character or you can say a strong character this is just my opinion and I know this is very long and I miss a lot of points because i don’t went to make this longer

[cropo]

9 hours ago, Tranoze said:

Soo destroy weak things consider op now? Torching entire forest without lifting a finger is equally as op as destroy waves of mobs. Same as forest, wave of mobs are just minding their own business before wendy come.

And demolish multiple waves? Without lifting a finger? The only waves of mobs abigail can safely destroy is basic spider. Abigail cant handle too much warrior spiders. Abigail also cant handle moonstone's wave alone. Abigail also cant handle splumonkey (shadow or not) if they come in multiple waves.
So no. Abigail doesn't demolish waves of mobs.

Without any Elixirs, I have used Abigail to mass-farm splemunkeys in the past. While she will eventually perish, she does insurmountable levels of damage to them with no investment. I never used any of Abigails elixirs because I never really needed them, but I assume that if I used the one that gave her shield a longer duration she would completely grind the splemunkeys to a pulp.

A long time ago I tried using bramble traps to farm splemunkeys which did a decent job but required a lot of investment and character-switching. I also had to be wary that I wasn't hit myself. 

With Abigail I could rile her up to cause damage to the monkeys, so they aggrod Abigail only, and I collected mass-quanities of their drops. Abigail eventually does die in the heat of combat, but she also auto-revives and auto-levels herself, again without any investment at all.


A big part of why I always thought Abigail was strong wasn't simply because she had an AOE follower, it was the self-sustainability of said follower. Regardless of player input, Abigail regenerates herself without any additional cost or resources. I haven't used her in post-rifts content, so I don't know how badly she truly falls off at that point in the game but pre-rifts it felt like she dominated any non-boss encounter, so it made sense that a solo Wendy player would be weaker against most bosses. Some people even argue that Abigail is not susceptible to bosses and that it is entirely possible to keep her out the entire fight, but I just unsummoned her and fought bosses with the lower damage multiplier.

Wendy in general was a quick and dirty pick; most people would say to pick Wilson to learn the game better, but I always argued that one should pick Wendy because even if the Wendy player is brand new to the game and doesn't know what they're doing, they still offer a massive contribution to the team. With Wortox you need to be able to fight to get souls and heal people, Wormwood and Warly you need to have pre-existing knowledge of the game to contribute, other characters you need to be good at something before you stop being dead weight. Wendy is immediately helpful no matter how skilled the Wendy player is. Everything about her, in my opinion, is her lack of a "cost" to the things she does. She helps new players compartmentalize the challenges of the game, so they can learn how to survive on the non-combat elements of the game while Abigail handles the combat. 

I think Wendy is a strong character, because she is a character that doesn't have a "cost" to the things she is able to do. She contributes massively to multiplayer groups, even if the Wendy player has absolutely no idea what they're doing.

[AliceMagtron]

17 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Can Abigail handle hound attacks pretty well?

One of the issues with those is that they arrive suddenly. Playing as Webber, I don't necessarily want an army of spiders crowding around me all the time. (I imagine same issue with merms. Maxwell's minions need to be summoned constantly, I think? Winona's catapults need to be carried around.)

Even if I have spiders with me, red hounds risk setting them on fire, which they will spread everywhere.

Abigail is a single, non-crowding mob that can be always active. She's also immune to freezing by blue hounds.

Cant webber wurt maxwell winona handle hound attacks pretty well?

there is about 45s for mexwell to summon minions before hounds attack, and they are immune to both freezing by blue hound and fire by red hounds

winona always carries catapults, and i do think winona players should learn to carry a flingo too, that even dont needs a slot to ofinventory. normally red hounds wont appear at first autumn, which means u have a whole winter to collect ice. and red hounds is not the only thing can cause fire on structures, so generally i do recommand winona players carry a lightning rod and flingo. and catapults also immune to freezing by blue hounds.

as for wurt, mutated merms r allways loyal even u dont want them to follow u.

and webber, maybe u dont want an army of spiders, but i have never seen a webber dont carry several nurse spiders in his pocket. and that should be enough to simply handle hound attacks. 

[Mike23Ua]

You guys should probably really keep in mind that Wendy’s rework (not the current beta skill tree which in my opinion isn’t so grand..) But her REWORK prior to the skill trees made crazy changes to her base character design-

1- Abigail’s Flower no longer needing to take 2-5 days to bloom out before you could summon her from it again. Instead you can now Endlessly summon Abby over and over again even if she keeps dying.

2- No longer having the flower drop to the ground in Abigail’s (probably dangerous..) Dying Location like when she suicided herself into Swamp Tentacles. Instead the flower never has any reason to EVER leave Wendys Inventory.

3- The Crazy petal Bestowment buff that boosted the attack damage of Wendy and all other players that attack whatever Abigail has Attacked.

All of these changes came at a time where we did not have Skill trees to separate and balance things out so you (the player) have to pick and choose which perks you want while doing without the things that don’t suit your playstyle.

As an example: While most players fully spec Woodie on Moose tree and never look back, I instead opted to invest just enough points for his self healing and instead Master Beaver form for the Tail Smack ability to quickly mine tons of resources fast.

I’m not entirely sure what the devs are thinking with Wendy’s Skill Tree but I can say for certain that her Rework gave her a bunch of crazy over the top buffs to her core character design, that had skill trees existed back then- Would’ve probably been locked behind choosing between.

I personally want them to restore the cooldown timer where you have to wait for the flower to bloom and fight without Abby, but allow players who want that back, to waste skill points into getting it back.. and to allow people like myself who can opt to live without it… to get invest our skill points elsewhere.

I want this because I miss the consequences of a player who recklessly gets Abby killed.

I even wouldn’t mind if instead of the cooldown time, Wendy’s Sanity took a heavy hit every time Abby was continuously resummoned.

Her skill tree should both balance what was so broken OP about her original Rework AND provide fun new gameplay options she didn’t have before.

[cropo]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m not entirely sure what the devs are thinking with Wendy’s Skill Tree

With the old design of the flower shroud I really think Klei was going along my line of thought. Her "lack of cost" in doing things. One could wear the shroud and just let Abigail take the entire burden of Wendy's well-being, and Abigail could regenerate it all passively. It wouldn't make her able to do crazy against bosses, but that was her downside. She didn't have to "pay" for the things she did, but when the real crap hit the fan she found herself at a disadvantage. 

If she truly needs to be buffed for future content, I think one of her skill-tree paths need to change this by requiring more of her to activate. I'm not a Wendy main, so I could be totally wrong about my judgements of her but I think a proper skill tree for her would be one that furthers into her "no cost" gimmick, where further things are made easier for her that would require more effort from other characters, and a "costly" branch where she can take away some of her ease-of-use but gain better use in late-game content. 

But again, I'm not a Wendy main so I don't really have a horse in this...just posting my general thoughts.

[Copyafriend]

5 hours ago, YXukun said:

I'm canculating dph I'm just "talking out of my ass"? Sound SO fair.

Oh you're calculating damage per hour...?

 

Where?

6 hours ago, YXukun said:

May I ask which target allows you to stand there and pressing F for one whole minute beside the punching bags? Or which post rift boss allows you to pressing F for one whole minute without killing you AND your past sister?

None of them of course. However, none of them just stand there and let wigfrid kill them either. You work off the assumption that each character will spend roughly the same amount of time dodging/avoiding damage or healing unless you have a reason to believe differently. Wigfrid has her shield, which does let her block damage, but its not realistically MUCH faster than dodging. At least not so much faster than it would result in a significantly different time to kill or something like that.

 

Your question is also quite silly, even for a rhetorical one. You knew of course that no boss stands there. But you ALSO know that both characters need to dodge or block attacks, both of which will take time away from attacking.

 

Its also extremely infuriating because for like the third time you're implying "damage per minute" is somehow a flawed system while simultaneously proposing a much more absurd one.

 

Damage per minute was done (and let me be as clear as i can about this) because the characters all attack once every 0.433 seconds. You cannot do damage per second cleanly with such an odd number. So as as a result i did the damage per minute instead to show clear comparable calculations. Whether or not the enemy stands still is completely irrelevant for this calculation, as its not implying 1 minute of attacking witbout moving.

 

its describing 1 minute of attacking. you can assume the characters move away mid fight and come back at the same time. if you want more specific and comparable numbers you need to get into the real nitty gritty of each boss, their dps and threat to abigail, how often they attack, how often each PLAYER would be dodging (presumably it would be every time, but technically if we want to maximize wigfrids dps we can instead tank until at 1 health before you heal to maximize the benefit from her 25% damage reduction and healing per hit)

It is too much math to be reasonable to do over this discussion. If you want a reasonable damage per second per character, divide the damage per minute by 60.

 

Damage per HOUR is absurd. Even the longest bossfights per game do not last an hour. There is no continual threat you could go out of your way to fight that would last one hour.

 

And let me re-iterate:

 

You arent doing ANY math to back what your saying up

 

Realistically you arent DOING anything to back what you're saying up either

 

If you wanted to, you could post speedruns for a specific boss with wendy vs wigfrid and that would be a great point of comparison, or you could show A video showing how

much more wendy needs to dodge compared to wigfrid, which you seem to be claiming is a significant amount more.

6 hours ago, YXukun said:

Dont starve's combat system decides that dph is more important, for the damage you deal often is'nt counted by time, but rather by how many times you are able to attack. For example the normal way of fighting Dragonfly is hit 6 times, evade 1 attack, not hit 3 seconds, evade 1 attack. Considering minor creatures such as spiders and hounds have a rather low hp dph is more important, but that's another thing.

The phrase you are searching for is called "time to kill" if you want to reference how long it takes to kill 1 specific creature, and not make a generalized statement about a characters damage capabilities, you talk about time to kill.

You can talk about time to kill in terms of pure time, or for low health mobs you can use a consistent measuring stick like hits to kill (a basic spider has a hit to kill of 2 for most characters

You do not use damage per hour, because the consistent measuring stick is bigger than the target being measured, which in this case leads to inaccuracies. Especially since damage per hour would be calculated exactly how i calculated damage per minute, except replace the number of hits in a minute with the number of hits per hour.

 

Additionally, another reason for using damage per minute, is that it helps with the differences in how wendy and wigfrid do damage. If i did damage per second, they both swing twice, and abigail attacks once. But then wigfrid is at a disadvantage for the calculations because they actually swing FASTER than twice per second, but abigail attacks at once per second. This gives wendy an unfair advantage that i was purposefully avoiding.

(1.15 * 68 * 2) v (1.25 * 68 * 2)

Wigfrid does 170 damage

Wendy+abigail do 156 +

10 (166)

20 (176)

40 (196) (15% stronger, a 4% improvement, but is more inaccurate)

This makes wendy seem stronger than she really is. So i used a by minute basis for intellectual honesty, even though obviously characters cant actually stand still for long periods of time, it solves a problem with the math itself.

If you want to measure time to kill (with math) you need to either painfully measure out exactly how long the characters dodge (to an accuracy of 1%) then compare it to exactly how long it takes wigfrid to block (assuming she blocks in a way to maximize damage) then you need to do the math that would count every single hit including when the characters need for healing and how often the boss swings.

Then you would have one single data point, showing how wendy compares to wigfrid against this one boss. To make a meaningful comparison you would need to repeat this several times so we can see how wendy and wigfrid generally stack up.

 

Alternatively you could post the recording of two different modern speedruns of thr same boss using the two different characters, assuming of course that the two speedrunners are playing optimally, then you ALSO have one single point of comparison and still need 5 more to mame any meaningful conclusions.

 

6 hours ago, YXukun said:

You do realize you got a computer in your hands that can be used to Compute, right?

So do you. Do something to prove your point. I did. You're all talk right now and you're claiming all this good stuff about how wendy fails in a practical comparison. Well prove me wrong and show me this practical comparison and how wendy fails.

I've played quite a bit of wendy. She doesnt lose abigail unless she messes up. And you can still kill the boss just fine with a reduced dpm, it isnt even that harsh of a penalty. Re heal and re-summon her a few times and struggle through the back half.

(Though im sure you're gonna focus on this and pretend i admitted i was wrong or something silly like that)

Its especially hilarious how much you're focusing abigails fragility when wendy is literally *as per klei's announcement* getting equipment to make abigail tougher in a hotfix soon. How much is still not certain but its definitely gonna help.

Abigails "ghost" and "attack here" modes also help her avoid damage better than ever. More control over her than ever before. But no lets just keep pretending that her dying is a foregone conclusion that cannot possibly be prevented.

[pikexiclefable]

On 11/25/2024 at 5:57 AM, paodocevoante1 said:

她有阿比盖尔。

But Abigail cannot defeat the boss

[Peasant]

6 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Oh you're calculating damage per hour...?

 

Where?

Damage per HIT bro, which I believe is of more significance than either damage per second or damage per minute. You must be playing dumb cause you can't possibly misunderstood.

8 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

or you could show A video showing how

much more wendy needs to dodge compared to wigfrid, which you seem to be claiming is a significant amount more.

I'm NOT claiming that wendy needs to dodge more, how did you come to that???  What I meant is that though wendy's dph is higher than wigfrid, it could be affected by the situation in battle, causing wendy lose her dph advantage over wigfrid. The reason for this affact can be varied, maybe abigail got killed, or abigail failed to debuff the enemy in time.

 

I see the middle part is roughly about why we should choose damage per minute instead of damage per hour so I'm skipping it

 

19 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

I've played quite a bit of wendy. She doesnt lose abigail unless she messes up. And you can still kill the boss just fine with a reduced dpm, it isnt even that harsh of a penalty. Re heal and re-summon her a few times and struggle through the back half.

(Though im sure you're gonna focus on this and pretend i admitted i was wrong or something silly like that)

Its especially hilarious how much you're focusing abigails fragility when wendy is literally *as per klei's announcement* getting equipment to make abigail tougher in a hotfix soon. How much is still not certain but its definitely gonna help.

Abigails "ghost" and "attack here" modes also help her avoid damage better than ever. More control over her than ever before. But no lets just keep pretending that her dying is a foregone conclusion that cannot possibly be prevented.

And that's what I've been talking about, mess-ups. When wendy messes up she lose abigail and thus her advantages, while wigfrid wont lose her advantage at all.

I'm not saying that because of this wigfrid is better, but saying that wendy has risks to mess up and lose her advantage, and for people who don't possess a pretty good skill, it's likely for them to mess up, making wendy generally weaker than wigfrid. BUT, in the hands of the masters, wendy is way beyond wigfrid, well at least beyond wigfrid who dont have a charged elding spear.

As for the skilltree for wendy, that's beyond the conversation cause they are currently in beta test.

[Copyafriend]

45 minutes ago, YXukun said:

Damage per HIT bro, which I believe is of more significance than either damage per second or damage per minute. You must be playing dumb cause you can't possibly misunderstood.

Damage per hit completely ignores one of Wendy's main sources of damage: abigail.

If you include abigail into the calculations, you are no longer doing damage per hit. You cant combine wendy and abigails hit in an accurate way into one single theoretical "damage per hit"

If you dont include abigail, you are not being honest about how much damage wendy can do.

 

abigail and wendy are on inherently different damage timers that never sync into a consistent damage amount. If you do it per second, it favors wendy, if you do damage per 5 seconds, its slightly more reliable, but still favors wendy, if you do it per 10 seconds it gets EVEN MORE reliable but still favors wendy by about 1%. I did the per minute because its as accurate as i care to be and the favoring wendy bit fades into a rounding error.

 

Favoring wendy as in favoring wendy unfairly of course. The players swing speed is annoying to deal with math wise. You could in theory count hits and measure how many times abigail attacks in 50 player hits or whatever, but that math is a lot messier and then instead favors wigfrid, not solving the problem at all.

To be honest i DID misunderstand you, but trying to purely measure damage per hit is just as bad as a theoretical damage per hour because you CANT combine abigails damage into a damage per hit calculation in a reasonable way (as in a way that doenst make a bunch of weird assumptions)

The only way to even attempt to do so (which is really gross)

Would be to multiply abigails damage by the character's attack speed and use it as a flat buff in addition to the players damage

So (68 * 1.15) + (40 * 0.433) or a theoretical 95.52 damage per hit* 

*ew

Lets compare that to the math i already did

Lets see, i calculated 138 attacks per minute and abigail attacking once every second, the final damage per minute was 13191 

We divide 13191 by 138 and get...

95.58.

Off by a factor of 0.0007. (This is with your method favoring wigfrid slightly and my method favoring wendy slightly)

 

Please stop questioning my methods. I clearly know what i'm talking about more than you when it comes to math.

 

You arent really doing damage per hit either. I know because my math is sound, and if you want actual per hit or per second you take my final calculated number as a reference and divide it by the appropriate number of hits or seconds you want to have an accurate number to the tens place.

45 minutes ago, YXukun said:

see the middle part is roughly about why we should choose damage per minute instead of damage per hour so I'm skipping it

The middle part is explaining my methods and why they are objectively one correct way of doing the math. It is not the only correct way of doing the math, but your methods are not providing useful comparisons at all.

If you throw one one single damage per hit calculation and dont show a damage per hit calculation from wendy your calculation is completely meaningless. If you HAD done that, then you wouldnt have really brought up the charged elding spear which only brings wigfrid up to tie with wendy, when normally wendy does about 11% more damage than wigfrid.

Wigfrid also only has that advantage assuming that you are one step from fighting CC, as wendy i always fight fuelweaver first because post fuelweaver rifts afe more useful for wendy, which helps with fighting CC.

 

Additionally planar damage suits wendy a lot more than wigfrid. The flat damage boost is neither raised nor lowered by their damage multipliers (Wendy's damage multiplier is actually 40% so 1.05) but it IS affected by abigails petal debuff (which is 10%) (correct me if im wrong but according to my research i am right, its a debuff to the entity making it take a flat 10% more damage from an attack, including planar damage)

Additionally wigfrids higher initial damage multiplier is more negatively affected by planar entity protection while Wendy's damage is split between two weaker attacks (which means that wigfrids attacks lose more damage against planar entities.

 

Finally: if wendy does lose abigail, her dps is still good if you use a planar weapon.

The brightshade sword does 38 + 30 planar so 

(38 * 0.75) + 30 or 55.5 4.5 more damage per swing than abi with a regular weapon.

And this is only with  a brightshade sword, a shadow reaper does

41.8 regular damage per swing (with the cowl)

And does 27 + up to 20 planar damage per swing

Also known as a total of 88 damage per swing before damage multis

if we calculate wendys damage its

(0.75 * 41.8) + 47

or 78.3 damage per swing if abigail dies

(you shouldnt let her die still but wendy is not weak without abi anymore)

Against an enemy with planar protection the difference shrinks even more because the regular damage gets shrunken significantly extremely badly (darkswords only deal 41 damage)

 

Long story short: wendy isnt actually all that bad off post rifts. Even if we start the fight with abi dead or unsummonef, abi does enough damage to reasonably compete with average characters.

 

[Peasant]

Just now, Copyafriend said:

Damage per hit completely ignores one of Wendy's main sources of damage: abigail.

If you include abigail into the calculations, you are no longer doing damage per hit. You cant combine wendy and abigails hit in an accurate way into one single theoretical "damage per hit"

If you dont include abigail, you are not being honest about how much damage wendy can do.

I took her into account. By roughly taking abigai attack once every twice wendy attacks, which actually benefits wendy for taking abigail attacks actually quicker than her actual speed, I got a dph of 98.2 in night. Besides, I actually dont think any damage below 0.1 is actually of any practical importance, considering you'll need to attack 10 times to turn 0.09 into 0.9, which's still below 1, making almost no difference in the total number of your attack. 

Anyway, this persistent over canculating has lasted long enough and caused much misunderstandings. My point is actually already listed. Wendy can mess up, when she does she is weaker than wigfrid, most players can mess up, therefore in these players' hands wendy isn't generally stronger than wigfrid.

As for planar weapons, they do bring wendy a rise in her damage number, but rather lame comparing her lose of sister. And lamer if added the cow of her. Well, the cow's another story, and it didnt rhyme well. In my opinion, as a battle centered character, the matter that her ability in combat has degraded to the level of average characters itself is a shame. Before the rifts wendy were among the second bests, now she fell into the mortals, whose number is decreasing skilltree by skilltree.

And I wouldnt recommand shadow scythe, for the total damage it does only matches with brightshade sword when you can hit at least 5 hits each evade, which cannot be achieved in most of the boss battles.

[Copyafriend]

21 minutes ago, YXukun said:

Anyway, this persistent over canculating has lasted long enough and caused much misunderstandings.

Sure we can drop it, no hard feelings ofc

 

22 minutes ago, YXukun said:

And I wouldnt recommand shadow scythe, for the total damage it does only matches with brightshade sword when you can hit at least 5 hits each evade, which cannot be achieved in most of the boss battles.

You're sleeping on it for sure, especially for post rift fights.

Brightsword does 68 (38 regular + 30 planar)

While shadow reaper does 68.8 (41.8 + 27 planar) PLUS the multiple hit bonus

Its a straight upgrade if you're willing to wear the cowl

Assuming 5 hits *easy on any post rift boss, they're all stunnable

68.8 + 73.7 + 78.8 + 83.8 + 88.8 = 394 damage

Or an average of 78.8 damage per hit

the charged elding spear does 59.5 + 20 or 79.5 which is slightly worse because more planar damage is much better against post rift bosses.

 

[Peasant]

Just now, Copyafriend said:

Brightsword does 68 (38 regular + 30 planar)

Wait you dont wear a brightshade helm for the sword?

[mima_]

5 minutes ago, YXukun said:

Wait you dont wear a brightshade helm for the sword?

with helm it become 76.8

[Peasant]

1 minute ago, Copyafriend said:

Brightsword does 68 (38 regular + 30 planar)

While shadow reaper does 68.8 (41.8 + 27 planar) PLUS the multiple hit bonus

Its a straight upgrade if you're willing to wear the cowl

Players I know hold a rather negative idea towards the scythe, one reason is that brightshade sword&helm provide a simple and stable damage of 76.8, exceeding all weapons before rifts(except the later updated charged elding spear which only wigfrid can use), and it's total damage exceeds scythe in most boss fights and all normal fights

Just now, mima_ said:

with helm it become 74.8

76.8, the helm provide 10% regular damage and 5 planar damage, so the number 76.8 is sewed into my memory.

[Jakepeng99]

On 11/24/2024 at 9:35 PM, dst_lover said:

she doesn’t have abilities that can help her team like wortox or wicker

She grants a 10% damage boost basically to all allies.