Banana Rework

[Jakepeng99]

Bananas are too strong with no downsides. Here are my ideas to rework them besides just making them not work in Winter:

1. Fruit bats. Similar to gobblers but more scary. They will eat the bananas, and surprise attack the player. Some have a chance to hide in bushes when a banana bush grows, the bush shakes a little and harvesting the bush results in a surprise attack. Fruit bats have a chance to drop any fruit.

2. Crock pot recipe stat reworks:

Banana diquire: Spoil timer halved, and then reduced by an extra day. However, fridge is 2x as effective on it. Still overall weaker.

Banana shake: Now restores 20 sainity instead. Its just way too overstatted for being so cheap i believe.

Banana pop spoils 2x slower in fridge. (Straight buff.)

 

 

 

 

 

[BalkanCockroach]

Bananats?

[ADM]

This, Figs and Leafy Meat became too good. Never felt like cooking in the game got as stale since just 3 ingredients and any random veggie as filler can solve anything you ask for.

[Maxil20]

14 minutes ago, ADM said:

This, Figs and Leafy Meat became too good. Never felt like cooking in the game got as stale since just 3 ingredients and any random veggie as filler can solve anything you ask for.

1 hour ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Bananas are too strong with no downsides. Here are my ideas to rework them besides just making them not work in Winter:

I really don’t see the problem with this, though? They’re good, yes, but keep in mind things like meat have dominated the dish picks for over a decade. The optimal items to make dishes out of haven’t really changed since DS in Beta, being meat for hunger needs via meaty stew, veggies for pierogies for health, and honey for taffy for sanity. They might not be the best at restoring the stats (particularly sanity), but when you get such a comical excess it doesn’t really matter if you need to eat 2 taffy and something else like pierogis to offset the health loss compared to eating a banana shake. 

DST has always had dishes/items that require minimal effort to make that can solve anything you ask for,  and there’s always going to be dishes that perform that (even if said dishes get nerfed, players will just flock to the next easiest and likely complain they are too good again). There’s still a lot more flexibility for crockpot dishes compared to the Not Good Days tm of spamming meaty stews/pierogies and getting cooked cactus to throw at literally anything the game had to offer.

[Jakepeng99]

On 11/15/2024 at 7:08 PM, Maxil20 said:

I really don’t see the problem with this, though? They’re good, yes, but keep in mind things like meat have dominated the dish picks for over a decade. The optimal items to make dishes out of haven’t really changed since DS in Beta, being meat for hunger needs via meaty stew, veggies for pierogies for health, and honey for taffy for sanity. They might not be the best at restoring the stats (particularly sanity), but when you get such a comical excess it doesn’t really matter if you need to eat 2 taffy and something else like pierogis to offset the health loss compared to eating a banana shake. 

DST has always had dishes/items that require minimal effort to make that can solve anything you ask for,  and there’s always going to be dishes that perform that (even if said dishes get nerfed, players will just flock to the next easiest and likely complain they are too good again). There’s still a lot more flexibility for crockpot dishes compared to the Not Good Days tm of spamming meaty stews/pierogies and getting cooked cactus to throw at literally anything the game had to offer.

I disagree.

 

Also tons of meat isnt passively grown in your garden.

I am fine with meat being stronger than farmed crops, because crops are like an investment, and meat is a one time reward. Meat is also more active way of rewarding the player for playing

[Cats_On_Fire]

3 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I disagree.

 

Also tons of meat isnt passively grown in your garden.

Yes but also. You will naturally just kill stuff for meat if you need any other items or stuff

1 hour ago, ADM said:

This, Figs and Leafy Meat became too good. Never felt like cooking in the game got as stale since just 3 ingredients and any random veggie as filler can solve anything you ask for.

I wanna know how you have enough figs. To do anything with 

[Maxil20]

30 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Also tons of meat isnt passively grown in your garden.

Lets see, you can:

-Kill pigs for meat, and pig farms are usually a standard in worlds (especially full moons for werepigs)

-Kill catcoons for meat, which is especially relevant if you are in/next to a deciduous biome (their respawn times are quick and their dens regrow in the spring).

-Kill spiders for monster meat, (which effectively works as a normal meat substitute in a crockpot if you only use one/convert the excess to eggs or can indirectly be used to get meat if fed to a pig and killing the resulting werepig)

-Kill hounds for monster meat, which come directly to you periodically

-Kill marotters for meat/morsels (kinda underrated honestly, they drop 1 meat and 1 morsel each and their dens are really nice for farming various loot from)

-Kill basically Any Giant Ever for meat (two of which come directly to you, one spawns in multiple places in spring and just about every raid boss drops 4-8 meat as a bonus)

-Kill moleworms for morsels, which are easy to relocate and a great way to get weak meat/eggs for crockpot needs

-kill bunnymen for meat (not the most efficient, but they still respawn daily and work well if in groups)

-kill tallbirds for meat, which also double as a way to get tallbird eggs for tall scotch eggs, another very powerful meat dish

-Kill depth worms for monster meat, which are abundant in the ruins and come directly to you periodically 

Keep in mind that this isn’t all of the ways you can farm meat, and apart from the distinction of some mobs dropping monster meat and some dropping meat/morsels, you only really need one “real” source to farm meat from. Once you have something like a pig farm setup, you effectively have meat set for the entire rest of the game.

A lot of people overcomplicate or make it seem like DS has never had problems with people greatly valuing crockpot dishes over others and that DST started it, but the reality is people discovered that dishes like meaty stew have been/are exceptionally powerful long before. DST didn’t make the problem worse, it simply added a lot of dishes that could actually compete with classics and/or require materials that isn’t giving meat to a birdcage to make eggs or taking a trip to the local desert for 30 cactus.

If anything, this only makes me realize just how lacking a lot of the original vanilla/RoG dishes were for how much effort you put into them. Melonscicles are not Bad because banana shakes exist and magically made them worse, they’ve been bad since the dish existed because of how out of the way you had to go make them when you could just farm other items for equal/better success, let alone the fact that non crockpot sanity options like cactus were superior for sanity needs for so long.

[Jakepeng99]

11 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

Kill pigs for meat, and pig farms are usually a standard in worlds (especially full moons for werepigs)

-Kill catcoons for meat, which is especially relevant if you are in/next to a deciduous biome (their respawn times are quick and their dens regrow in the spring).

-Kill spiders for monster meat, (which effectively works as a normal meat substitute in a crockpot if you only use one/convert the excess to eggs or can indirectly be used to get meat if fed to a pig and killing the resulting werepig)

-Kill hounds for monster meat, which come directly to you periodically

-Kill marotters for meat/morsels (kinda underrated honestly, they drop 1 meat and 1 morsel each and their dens are really nice for farming various loot from)

-Kill basically Any Giant Ever for meat (two of which come directly to you, one spawns in multiple places in spring and just about every raid boss drops 4-8 meat as a bonus)

-Kill moleworms for morsels, which are easy to relocate and a great way to get weak meat/eggs for crockpot needs

-kill bunnymen for meat (not the most efficient, but they still respawn daily and work well if in groups)

-kill tallbirds for meat, which also double as a way to get tallbird eggs for tall scotch eggs, another very powerful meat dish

-Kill depth worms for monster meat, which are abundant in the ruins and come directly to you periodically 

It rewards you for acfively doing stuff. You also are likely to lose resources and greater time by fighting them.

[Maxil20]

4 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

It rewards you for acfively doing stuff. You also are likely to lose resources and greater time by fighting them.

You still profit much more from doing the activities in turn. Getting 12 pierogis but needing 2 to heal the chip damage you take is still going to be a profit of 10 pierogis at the end of the day. You need some time to do it, but that’s the same for pretty much all food sources (even for banana bushes you still have to make it to moon quay to get banana bushes, then bring them back home, and then plant/occasionally refertilize the bushes).

 

[Echsrick]

33 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

 

Keep in mind that this isn’t all of the ways you can farm meat,

 

base next to a river of sorts, place boat on the river, make some trawlers nets and tinfishing bins, get passive fish spawn because base is next to water, get free fish, and then use drying racks to turn fish into normal meat pretty much so you can make meaty stew, this my go to for wortox base, because tinfishin bin acts as a soul storage aswell and meatystew is very good for him

[Well-met]

how about instead we disable all plant growables aswell as farm plants during winter like how the franchise was literally built on winter being a major food sink

[arubaro]

3 hours ago, Maxil20 said:

I really don’t see the problem with this, though? They’re good, yes, but keep in mind things like meat have dominated the dish picks for over a decade. The optimal items to make dishes out of haven’t really changed since DS in Beta, being meat for hunger needs via meaty stew, veggies for pierogies for health, and honey for taffy for sanity. They might not be the best at restoring the stats (particularly sanity), but when you get such a comical excess it doesn’t really matter if you need to eat 2 taffy and something else like pierogis to offset the health loss compared to eating a banana shake. 

DST has always had dishes/items that require minimal effort to make that can solve anything you ask for,  and there’s always going to be dishes that perform that (even if said dishes get nerfed, players will just flock to the next easiest and likely complain they are too good again). There’s still a lot more flexibility for crockpot dishes compared to the Not Good Days tm of spamming meaty stews/pierogies and getting cooked cactus to throw at literally anything the game had to offer.

Then maybe is time to balance meat aswell...

[aidankocherhans]

2 hours ago, Maxil20 said:

Lets see, you can:

-Kill pigs for meat, and pig farms are usually a standard in worlds (especially full moons for werepigs)

-Kill catcoons for meat, which is especially relevant if you are in/next to a deciduous biome (their respawn times are quick and their dens regrow in the spring).

-Kill spiders for monster meat, (which effectively works as a normal meat substitute in a crockpot if you only use one/convert the excess to eggs or can indirectly be used to get meat if fed to a pig and killing the resulting werepig)

-Kill hounds for monster meat, which come directly to you periodically

-Kill marotters for meat/morsels (kinda underrated honestly, they drop 1 meat and 1 morsel each and their dens are really nice for farming various loot from)

-Kill basically Any Giant Ever for meat (two of which come directly to you, one spawns in multiple places in spring and just about every raid boss drops 4-8 meat as a bonus)

-Kill moleworms for morsels, which are easy to relocate and a great way to get weak meat/eggs for crockpot needs

-kill bunnymen for meat (not the most efficient, but they still respawn daily and work well if in groups)

-kill tallbirds for meat, which also double as a way to get tallbird eggs for tall scotch eggs, another very powerful meat dish

-Kill depth worms for monster meat, which are abundant in the ruins and come directly to you periodically 

Keep in mind that this isn’t all of the ways you can farm meat, and apart from the distinction of some mobs dropping monster meat and some dropping meat/morsels, you only really need one “real” source to farm meat from. Once you have something like a pig farm setup, you effectively have meat set for the entire rest of the game.

A lot of people overcomplicate or make it seem like DS has never had problems with people greatly valuing crockpot dishes over others and that DST started it, but the reality is people discovered that dishes like meaty stew have been/are exceptionally powerful long before. DST didn’t make the problem worse, it simply added a lot of dishes that could actually compete with classics and/or require materials that isn’t giving meat to a birdcage to make eggs or taking a trip to the local desert for 30 cactus.

If anything, this only makes me realize just how lacking a lot of the original vanilla/RoG dishes were for how much effort you put into them. Melonscicles are not Bad because banana shakes exist and magically made them worse, they’ve been bad since the dish existed because of how out of the way you had to go make them when you could just farm other items for equal/better success, let alone the fact that non crockpot sanity options like cactus were superior for sanity needs for so long.

Most of these require more effort than something like a banana bush, you need to fight something often in a location you can't choose (I don't think pig farms are a standard, you'd need to specifically look that up to know how to do it)

3 hours ago, Maxil20 said:

I really don’t see the problem with this, though? They’re good, yes, but keep in mind things like meat have dominated the dish picks for over a decade. The optimal items to make dishes out of haven’t really changed since DS in Beta, being meat for hunger needs via meaty stew, veggies for pierogies for health, and honey for taffy for sanity. They might not be the best at restoring the stats (particularly sanity), but when you get such a comical excess it doesn’t really matter if you need to eat 2 taffy and something else like pierogis to offset the health loss compared to eating a banana shake. 

DST has always had dishes/items that require minimal effort to make that can solve anything you ask for,  and there’s always going to be dishes that perform that (even if said dishes get nerfed, players will just flock to the next easiest and likely complain they are too good again). There’s still a lot more flexibility for crockpot dishes compared to the Not Good Days tm of spamming meaty stews/pierogies and getting cooked cactus to throw at literally anything the game had to offer.

I don't think taffy is really optimal, its probably one of the worst ways to get sanity from food, especially because of the long cook time

[Cats_On_Fire]

31 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

Most of these require more effort than something like a banana bush, you need to fight something often in a location you can't choose (I don't think pig farms are a standard, you'd need to specifically look that up to know how to do it)

I don't think taffy is really optimal, its probably one of the worst ways to get sanity from food, especially because of the long cook time

I might litterally run a pirate faction in this game within a community and bannas aren't even half the food it's mostly stonefruit. And we live on lunar island and I am playing wicker so that should tell you something 

[kroban]

2 hours ago, Well-met said:

how about instead we disable all plant growables aswell as farm plants during winter like how the franchise was literally built on winter being a major food sink

True that, last week I was just thinking about this, I was farming lots of pumpkins for the event with the pumpkin-potato-asparagus combo and It was crazy how much food i was getting that way, even ignoring the pumpkins it was still stacks of veggies. And theres also stone fruit that still grow quick on winter. I remember way back then when ice was THE filler because in winter there was almost no other filler source, **** like that. The season is now just beta autumn, atleast when it comes to food lmao

[Maxil20]

19 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

I don't think taffy is really optimal, its probably one of the worst ways to get sanity from food, especially because of the long cook time

The thing that makes taffy strong is the fact its spammable and lasts a long time. Because you lose all sanity benefits when the dish goes stale (unless you are WX specifically), it’s very important to find dishes that have good spoilage for sanity and a lot of them can struggle with that (dishes like ice cream in particular have 12 minutes to eat before they go stale and that’s provided every ingredient is in Mint Condition when you make it...) Taffy lasts 15 days and is easily made with honey. It does take time to cook, but I personally don’t worry too much about that past the early game as it’s pretty realistic to make ~8-10 pots and cycle between them to bulk craft it, especially with the reduction in the placement hitboxes of crockpots, and sanity sources like cactus are usually enough to fill the gap from early-midgame. It’s not the most practical way to keep the stat up, but it’s certainly an option I feel is fairly doable without an immense amount of struggle making it.

It’s also important to note that sanity isn’t a stat you are as reliant to fill via crockpot foods, primarily because clothing options are the “intended” way to handle it. Outside of bosses/ruins, I don’t usually need to eat foods to recover sanity because things like the enlightened crown are great for keeping the stat topped later on.

27 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

Most of these require more effort than something like a banana bush, you need to fight something often in a location you can't choose (I don't think pig farms are a standard, you'd need to specifically look that up to know how to do it)

A good chunk of the sources I provided can be relocated (pig/bunnies can be setup via the houses, spider dens can be moved, moleworms can be relocated, marotter dens can be moved short distances by rowing/long distances by bootlegs, tallbirds can be moved via burning the den and moving the tallbird somewhere else with rocky/plain turf, etc.). Some might be more tricky than others and some indeed can’t be moved at all, but I feel there’s enough sources you can freely use based on what the conditions are or what you would choose to do.

I personally don’t really like the argument of “if you don’t know it, you can’t do it”, because by that logic a lot of players wouldn’t know anything about the moon quay island’s existence in the first place and therefore would not have banana bushes unless someone who knows about it gets them, and chances are said person that does probably knows how to make a simple pig farm.

40 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Then maybe is time to balance meat aswell...

Given that they tried to nerf banana shake/banana daquiri’s spoilage time from 15 to 6 days before (that isn’t a tangent BTW, they actually tried to do that in A Little Drama) and then quickly had to revert it due to people being unhappy about it, I doubt they are going to change anything related to a much more used resource anytime soon. Personally what I would want is an adjustment to meaty stew to reduce the hunger it gives from 150 to 100 as even then it would still be extremely hunger efficient while giving players more incentive to pursue other recipes, though I am not sure how that exactly the reaction of that would go.

2 hours ago, Well-met said:

how about instead we disable all plant growables aswell as farm plants during winter

This I personally wouldn’t mind (especially for banana bushes, though maybe keep ancient trees as an exception since gloomberries grow in winter already and I feel like it isn’t insane for them to grow during winter anyway), though I do feel it’s important to note the rule has been “broken” ever since caves with light flowers in vanilla and to cactus in ROG. Doesn’t mean too much, but I figured it’s something noteworthy.

[Evelo]

Any nerf to banana makes me happy. Way way way too powerful given you can farm them now via Moon Quay gathering. If it was relegated to only Splumonkies and Banana Trees in the Caves, I'd say it is fine.

[Sacco]

Food gathering in general needs a nerf.

There are too many food sources, and at this point i don't find it any interesting in farming them, there isn' even a small challenge in getting food...

First of all i think every plant shouldn't grow in winter, except for the crops which have winter as their favourite season (garlic? and asparagous and i don't remember).

Then a nerf to the time the plants require to grow, a small one, just a couple of days.

THEN, most importantly, some foods are so good you don't even need to farm crops, i think their stats should be lowered and some crop dishes should be buffed.

 

 

[_mylilsunshine_]

I agree that food in general needs a nerf, to bring the game back to its core, a survival-crafting game. I planted 3 knobby trees, 20 kelp, 10 leafy bulbs, and 3 bee boxes, those were more than enough to sustain me through constant boss fights and sanity drain as Walter. It's crazy how easily you can amass food and how much value they provide compared to the effort.

Nerf the food.
Make us starve.

Nerf the food.
Make us starve.

Nerf the food!
Make us starve!

[arubaro]

10 hours ago, Maxil20 said:

Given that they tried to nerf banana shake/banana daquiri’s spoilage time from 15 to 6 days before (that isn’t a tangent BTW, they actually tried to do that in A Little Drama) and then quickly had to revert it due to people being unhappy about it, I doubt they are going to change anything related to a much more used resource anytime soon. Personally what I would want is an adjustment to meaty stew to reduce the hunger it gives from 150 to 100 as even then it would still be extremely hunger efficient while giving players more incentive to pursue other recipes, though I am not sure how that exactly the reaction of that would go

They nerfed bunnymen insane food drop and, despite people complaining about such deserved change, it opened the way for other food sources. 

Is hard to add new content when strong old stuff isnt revisited and klei shouldn't mind people's fear of losing their confort zone to make the game easy...damn, there are even people defending bugs with bridges to insta kill bosses, that shows how is better for klei to simply make a good game. That people already instal mods for making the game easy so they should have freedom to create high quality content or we will end up with a weird unbalanced game made of unconnected pieces

 

Pd. And just for how it breaks the immersion, bannanas and figs shouldn't grow in winter... make it so they grow faster in surface summer to give a reward for experiencing summer

[Bumber64]

5 hours ago, Sacco said:

There are too many food sources

Don't Scarf Together

5 hours ago, Sacco said:

First of all i think every plant shouldn't grow in winter, except for the crops which have winter as their favourite season (garlic? and asparagous and i don't remember).

Potato, carrot, pumpkin, asparagus, garlic. This doesn't change much because these are what you'd be growing in winter to begin with.

Notably, potato grows well in every season except summer. Dragon fruit grows well in summer (and spring). They use the same nutrient groups and are two of the best crops. Basically, you're always growing one of these two, and the rest just kind of exist around that fact.

The choice in winter is carrot vs pumpkin and asparagus vs garlic. In any other season, you can balance with just toma root.

[Jakepeng99]

5 hours ago, arubaro said:

Pd. And just for how it breaks the immersion, bannanas and figs shouldn't grow in winter... make it so they grow faster in surface summer to give a reward for experiencing summer

The fact they are tropical fruits makes it even more absurd now that i think of it.

 

If the game used real life logic, they wont be able to grow in Autumn either.

8 hours ago, Sacco said:

There are too many food sources, and at this point i don't find it any interesting in farming them, there isn' even a small challenge in getting food...

@Maxil20 Thats why i am mostly fine with meat, but not banana. To get meat an abundance, it requires active work and engagement. Things like bananas are the fuel that keeps base sitters on their butt lol. After you get the banana bushes once, you have infinite bananas forever.

Farming farm crops also requires active effort and engagement, even with the simple farming method.

[Reiko24]

1 hour ago, Jakepeng99 said:

The fact they are tropical fruits makes it even more absurd now that i think of it.

 

If the game used real life logic, they wont be able to grow in Autumn either.

@Maxil20 Thats why i am mostly fine with meat, but not banana. To get meat an abundance, it requires active work and engagement. Things like bananas are the fuel that keeps base sitters on their butt lol. After you get the banana bushes once, you have infinite bananas forever.

Farming farm crops also requires active effort and engagement, even with the simple farming method.

After you build pig houses once, you have infinite meat forever.

After you create a volt goat farm once, you have infinite meat forever.

After you create a tallbird pen, you have infinite meat and eggs forever.

 

The only difference is, that to get enough banana bushes to make any difference, you need to be in the endgame, and catch tons of moongleams. Then, you need to find the moon quay and sit there for 30 minutes like a fool, because the Incomplete Portal accepts on Moongleam every 10 seconds. Every portal cycle spits out one monkey. By the end of a banana bush farming session, you would have like 80 monkeys on you.

[aidankocherhans]

42 minutes ago, Reiko24 said:

After you build pig houses once, you have infinite meat forever.

After you create a volt goat farm once, you have infinite meat forever.

After you create a tallbird pen, you have infinite meat and eggs forever.

 

The only difference is, that to get enough banana bushes to make any difference, you need to be in the endgame, and catch tons of moongleams. Then, you need to find the moon quay and sit there for 30 minutes like a fool, because the Incomplete Portal accepts on Moongleam every 10 seconds. Every portal cycle spits out one monkey. By the end of a banana bush farming session, you would have like 80 monkeys on you.

I'm pretty sure you can get enough banana bushes to fully handle sanity and health outside of bosses just from digging up bushes on the island and maybe getting a few from the portal 

[Maxil20]

8 hours ago, arubaro said:

They nerfed bunnymen insane food drop and, despite people complaining about such deserved change, it opened the way for other food sources. 

But nerfing bunnymen wasn’t the only reason new food sources sprouted up. Things like barnacles/figs/tallbird eggs and the dishes that came with them or the entire farming system being reworked to be far more lucrative were changes that made it much more worthwhile to go and use new food sources and make new dishes.

Again, I really don’t see the problem with having multiple equally viable food sources. Just as players can stick to basics and be set forever (heck, I ate honey for IRL years in my world because I genuinely did not like making crockpot dishes pre bin), you can also go out of your way to make more exotic dishes which usually come with additional benefits and also be set forever. I personally have went out of my way to try mass producing a bunch of hunger related dishes overtime and do things I would have never done otherwise as a result of that, from barnacle linguine, to tall scotch eggs, to figatoni. 

I would rather Klei buff underutilized dishes like the vanilla/ROG ones then nerf the overused ones personally, but that’s mainly because I think it’s nicer to have a variety of dishes that work. 

3 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Thats why i am mostly fine with meat, but not banana. To get meat an abundance, it requires active work and engagement. Things like bananas are the fuel that keeps base sitters on their butt lol. After you get the banana bushes once, you have infinite bananas forever.

 

But you can do this with literally any other food source (which includes meat). Transplanting food sources to a base does not require an immense amount of difficulty to cultivate and grow and in fact is the ideal place to put them. You can pretty easily keep a couple food sources at base and be topped on all three stats. Bananas didn’t cause that to occur, it’s been like this since base DS existed.