Could the Fuelweaver fight just not have nightmare spawning?

[Lardee]

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

The average player absolutely can beat Deerclops. Even if they suck at fighting, they can lead it into a forest and make treeguards kill it. Also, Klei reworked Deerclops to have a more forgiving kiting pattern that rewards running behind it (they got rid of the full 360 AoE), so that kind of kills the very foundation of your argument there and instead supports mine: Klei saw that newbies were having more difficulty than they should and added more counterplay. 

 

The average player absolutely cannot beat Deerclops. Of the 15k to 30k people that are playing DST at any given moment, the vast majority do not possess the skill or knowledge to beat it. The same is true for Dragonfly, Klaus, Twins of Terror etc. That doesn't mean all of those bosses should be nerfed to fit the skill level of the average player. So no, it makes no sense to balance FW around the average player.

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As for the old, exhausted, overused and dried-up "skill issue" ad-hominem: nah, you don't get to dismiss my tastes in gameplay that way. You have an out-of-touchness issue.
I don't have this problem with anything else in the game, yet I and many other people find Fuelweaver too stressful to be worth fighting. Can I beat it? Yes. Do I want to? Not any more than I absolutely have to, and its mid-game summonability and intended other-side-of-the-coin relationship to end-game boss Celestial Champion makes needing to beat CC to actually have a reasonable fight with it seem poorly thought-out.
Klei needs to either bring back one of the cheese methods, add something like Gashzer's moonlight shackle, or rework the boss, simple as - we need an option that allows people who aren't no-lifing the game and who don't play it for a YouTube career like you do to actually have fun with it, or at least get past it without burning out so badly from frustration and repeated attempts that they stop playing for a week.

As for "character switching gives me the ick", yes? People like playing their characters continuously. If I just switched to Wolfgang every time I ran into a difficult enemy or fought a boss, I'd feel like I was cheating or wasn't really playing the character I wanted to play (who's not the easy mode speedrun character with free double damage). It honestly feels like more of a betrayal of the playthrough than using a cheese method, even as someone who's played every character for multiple hours and has mained several of them for months each.
It feeling bad to have to switch character is a common sentiment, and it's good game design to avoid forcing players to do things that can actively ruin their will to continue playing a world.

I didn't use the words "skill issue" and my argument that if the boss has been around for 7 years and is beatable with enough skill and/or through alternate means then it ought not to be changed is not an ad hominem.

You can't can't make the claim that the fight is too stressful and that Klei should bring back cheese methods when Klei already has implemented multiple in-game ways for you to make the fight less stressful such as character switching, resource dumping or beating CC.  If you want to beat FW but lack the skills to enjoy the fight, the game has a solution for you.  If those solutions make you feel bad or they cost you time, then that's incentive to improve your skills so you don't rely on those solutions. Penalizing the player for lacking skill by forcing them to expend more time/resources in order to win is good game design. 

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Look, I get it, your entire persona is being a skilled player. Regardless, you need to consider that the access of the rest of the playerbase - not just you and people like you - to the game's content matters more, and it's never good game design to have a boss that only a handful of people actually enjoy fighting. It should be the minority of people who want extreme challenges that need to install mods for them to find bosses fun, not the majority of people who want reasonable difficulty.

I never referenced by own skill as part of my argument. I think a lot of bosses aren't much of a challenge and that I'd probably have more fun if Klei tweaked them to my tastes, but I don't advocate that Klei do that. Why? Because I don't think DST should revolve around me. I recognize that there are people who do like bosses the way they are, people who think it is an appropriate challenge, but most importantly, there are many people who have been playing this game for years and have built their playstyles and enjoyment around the game including those bosses.

DST already has solutions for people who don't enjoy the fight because it's too difficult. Not wanting to use any of those solutions isn't a reason to change a boss, especially a final boss that players have spent time and effort learning for 7 years.

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No no, they have a point. There's a reason that competitive game developers don't solely base game balance around the top 1% of players. Hell, when some devs tried that (TF2 comes to mind), they've done things like make certain weapons completely useless because competitive players complained about them. You need to consider that we all have our biases, and yours is one that blinds you to the difficulty faced by people not in the 1% of the 1% of the 1% of skill in this game.

They don't have a point because I didn't make the claim that the game should be balanced around me. I have expressed a simple standard: if the boss isn't broken or impossible and it's been around for a long time, don't change it. FW is the toughest challenge in DST. If other games changed their maximum difficulty settings to suit the average player, there'd never be a Hard Mode or Nightmare difficulties.  FW as it is is great not because I personally find it balanced, but because you can adjust the difficulty of the fight to suit your level. The hardcore players can fight it with minimal resources and still have a challenge and people who are completely new to the fight can also beat it given they are sufficiently prepared.

Believe it or not, there was a time  when FW was not only very stressful, but I couldn't even beat it. Instead of jumping on the forums and telling Klei to nerf FW, I decided to change myself so that I could beat it. And that's how it should be.

 

[DegenerateFurry]

28 minutes ago, Lardee said:

The average player absolutely cannot beat Deerclops. Of the 15k to 30k people that are playing DST at any given moment, the vast majority do not possess the skill or knowledge to beat it.

[Citation needed.]

28 minutes ago, Lardee said:

I didn't use the words "skill issue" and my argument that if the boss has been around for 7 years and is beatable with enough skill and/or through alternate means then it ought not to be changed is not an ad hominem.

"What the last paragraph really boils down to is you're not skilled enough (yet) to enjoy the FW fight without character switching."

This is just "skill issue" with extra words. It's the spirit of the sentiment, not the literal phrase, that I take issue with. I figure you know that already, though.

28 minutes ago, Lardee said:

You can't can't make the claim that the fight is too stressful and that Klei should bring back cheese methods when Klei already has implemented multiple in-game ways for you to make the fight less stressful such as character switching, resource dumping or beating CC.  If you want to beat FW but lack the skills to enjoy the fight, the game has a solution for you.  If those solutions make you feel bad or they cost you time, then that's incentive to improve your skills so you don't rely on those solutions. Penalizing the player for lacking skill by forcing them to expend more time/resources in order to win is good game design. 

Alright, let's take a look at those solutions.
1. Character switching.
Already addressed, it's a horrid non-solution to a problem of poor balance.
2. Resource dumping.
This is the stressful part! Managing so many different things at once while constantly burning through resources in an attempt not to become Sisyphus until you run out just kills all enjoyment. I'll go further into this later in the post.
3. Beating CC.
Already addressed - that shouldn't be anywhere near necessary or standard when Fuelweaver is supposed to be a shadow-side counterpart to CC, not something several times more important and final. We even see the intent in Fuelweaver being a counterpart to CC in the fact that they both open the door to tools that work extremely well against their counterpart - the bone helm is great for CC since it means you don't have to bother managing insanity to keep Gestalts off of you. Klei has failed at this intent blatantly and by a thousand miles if even bossrusher pros like you are saying that Fuelweaver is meant to be substantially harder than Celestial Champion. 

28 minutes ago, Lardee said:

They don't have a point because I didn't make the claim that the game should be balanced around me. I have expressed a simple standard: if the boss isn't broken or impossible and it's been around for a long time, don't change it. FW is the toughest challenge in DST. If other games changed their maximum difficulty settings to suit the average player, there'd never be a Hard Mode or Nightmare difficulties.  FW as it is is great not because I personally find it balanced, but because you can adjust the difficulty of the fight to suit your level. The hardcore players can fight it with minimal resources and still have a challenge and people who are completely new to the fight can also beat it given they are sufficiently prepared.

My argument is that Fuelweaver shouldn't be the toughest challenge in DST because it should be on-par with Celestial Champion, its developer-intended counterpart, who is far more reasonably balanced and should be the golden standard for a difficult boss in this game.

Also, the vast majority of games with difficulty settings balance around a "normal mode", which is meant for average players. 

And, honestly? Fuelweaver's an out-of-place garbage pile mess that doesn't even belong in this game. Its core design is inherently flawed. It requires you to juggle switching between a lazy explorer, a weapon, a nightmare amulet and magiluminescence/chest-slot armor, constantly eat sanity food and (assuming you're getting hit while trying to do all of that) healing food, periodically use one of likely several weather pains to clear out his self-healing before he deletes all your progress, and if you choose to do it without sanity food, you instead are getting constantly chased by two Terrorbeaks and paralyzed by mind control to take damage you can't avoid.
This has been the intended way to fight the boss since its introduction. Oh, and let's not forget those moments where he parks his skeletal hiney on top of one of the unseen hands and you can't hit it because of his dumb invincibility forcefield and the game's targeting system prioritizing something you literally can't damage over the thing that makes it vulnerable.
Due to the way switching items in this game works, it quickly devolves into a confusing mess since your inventory full of required equipment keeps switching position with whatever your last-equipped one was, so it's not like you can just press a button to switch to what you need without very carefully managing your switching while doing all the above. 

As Cropo pointed out with his Dark Souls analogy, literally no other boss or enemy in the game requires this level of tedious-yet-high-stress-and-zero-forgiveness micromanagement. Players can get through 99% of game content with either switching between a cane and a ham bat or just a ham bat, eating healing food if they get damaged, and wearing a football helmet. If you feel the need, you can equip body-slot armor to make your armor last longer or a magiluminescence to make kiting easier, and you can take occasional breaks from literally any other boss fight to kill sanity monsters or shovel some sanity food down your gullet if you need to. Not Fuelweaver, though! That one's on a strict timer, requiring perfection.

Can you blame players for not having learned how to do anything close to what's required by the point they encounter Fuelweaver? Not if you're being honest with yourself. 

[Dwight34]

13 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

As Cropo pointed out with his Dark Souls analogy, literally no other boss in the game requires this level of tedious-yet-high-stress-and-zero-forgiveness micromanagement. Can you blame players for not having learned how to do anything close to what's required by the point they encounter Fuelweaver? Not if you're being honest with yourself. 

They're not honest since their entire argument is "It shouldn't be changed because it's feasible". That's it, in their entire pages of cope they have not given a single different argument.

Quoting them: "If the boss isn't broken or impossible and it's been around for a long time, don't change it." Translated: "If it's feasible, anyone asking for any change of any kind needs to git gud". They refuse the very notion of design, period, they pretend design does not exist, only skill. I have tried so many times in this thread, they refuse to acknowledge any issue with FW, they refuse to propose a single change to make him fairer, and they refuse to provide a single example as to how they'd make other bosses "less boring". If you listen to them, they hate literally every single boss except FW. The boss can be kited? Boring! The boss needs to be dodged and then their stun phase is the window to hit? Boring! And all of that said without any justification or example as to how they'd improve the fights. The only thing they have given an inclination of caring about is item switching aka reflexes, and if they think DST is a game about reflexes, then they misunderstand the game more than any noob who dies to a spider day 2.

[Guille6785]

11 hours ago, Dwight34 said:

Guille is an incredibly gifted speedrunner. You are extreme outliers. Those discussions about balance are things you cannot objectively engage in anymore

my opinions have not changed since I had less than 300 hours in the game

2 hours ago, Dwight34 said:

and a speedrunning madman with thousands of hours of training.

idk if youre hallucinating but I never commented on anything in this thread

[Echsrick]

i am just goin god mode and cheat for the fight wich is fair, given the game is cheating on me first with that whole fight with its.....weird design choices

[Lardee]

53 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

[Citation needed.]

 

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"What the last paragraph really boils down to is you're not skilled enough (yet) to enjoy the FW fight without character switching."

This is just "skill issue" with extra words. It's the spirit of the sentiment, not the literal phrase, that I take issue with. I figure you know that already, though.

 

I know the argument is the same, but "skill issue" can imply disrespect that one can interpret as ad hominem which is why I said I didn't use those words.

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Alright, let's take a look at those solutions.
1. Character switching.
Already addressed, it's a horrid non-solution to a problem of poor balance.
2. Resource dumping.
This is the stressful part! Managing so many different things at once while constantly burning through resources in an attempt not to become Sisyphus until you run out just kills all enjoyment. I'll go further into this later in the post.
3. Beating CC.
Already addressed - that shouldn't be anywhere near necessary or standard when Fuelweaver is supposed to be a shadow-side counterpart to CC, not something several times more important and final. We even see the intent in Fuelweaver being a counterpart to CC in the fact that they both open the door to tools that work extremely well against their counterpart - the bone helm is great for CC since it means you don't have to bother managing insanity to keep Gestalts off of you. Klei has failed at this intent blatantly and by a thousand miles if even speedrunner pros like you are saying that Fuelweaver is meant to be substantially harder than Celestial Champion. 

You addressed them in the sense that you explained why you don't like the solutions, but it's all based on personal preference. Feeling like something is poorly balanced doesn't make it so, neither does feeling FW should be nerfed to CC's level instead of the other way around, neither does the fight being "too stressful". So it doesn't address the actual point which is that if the fight is too difficult to be enjoyed, the game gives you solutions.  The solutions are penalizing in terms of time/resources (and in characters switching, perhaps immersion or pride). With enough skill, you don't have to pay these penalties. That's good game design.

 

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My argument is that Fuelweaver shouldn't be the toughest challenge in DST because it should be on-par with Celestial Champion, its developer-intended counterpart, who is far more reasonably balanced and should be the golden standard for a difficult boss in this game.

We need to stop using ourselves to define what is "reasonably balanced". DST shouldn't revolve around me or you. I could easily make the case that CC should be as tough as FW for the exact same reason. As someone who actually thinks CC is too easy and would like it if it was made as tough as FW, I refrain from making that argument because I don't think the game should be balanced around me.

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Also, the vast majority of games with difficulty settings balance around a "normal mode", which is meant for average players. 

Yes and a sandbox game like DST's method of implementing various levels of difficulty is to allow the player to adjust this level based on what items they bring into the fight.

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And, honestly? Fuelweaver's an out-of-place garbage pile mess that doesn't even belong in this game. Its core design is inherently flawed. It requires you to juggle switching between a lazy explorer, a weapon, a nightmare amulet and magiluminescence/chest-slot armor, constantly eat sanity food and (assuming you're getting hit while trying to do all of that) healing food, periodically use one of likely several weather pains to clear out his self-healing before he deletes all your progress, and if you choose to do it without sanity food, you instead are getting constantly chased by two Terrorbeaks. This has been the intended way to fight the boss since its introduction.
Due to the way switching items in this game works, it quickly devolves into a confusing mess since your inventory full of required equipment keeps switching position with whatever your last-equipped one was, so it's not like you can just press a button to switch to what you need without very carefully managing your switching while doing all the above. 

As Cropo pointed out with his Dark Souls analogy, literally no other boss in the game requires this level of tedious-yet-high-stress-and-zero-forgiveness micromanagement. Can you blame players for not having learned how to do anything close to what's required by the point they encounter Fuelweaver? Not if you're being honest with yourself. 

Idk, many people have beaten FW with inventory management just fine. IMO it's actually good game design when a boss forces you to become skilled at a different aspect of the game. Making every boss fight a WASD + F is a recipe for boring.  Also, I think it's objectively not true that FW has zero forgiveness. You often will be punished for messing up, but it's not like original Crab King where getting frozen once = gg.

[DegenerateFurry]

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

The same tired "it's all subjective and actually everything should be harder, cope" nonsense over and over again.

 Yeah, never mind, Dwight34 was right, you're not worth arguing with. Everyone loves Celestial Champion except for people like you, but Fuelweaver is so controversial that we get a heated argument thread on him every week almost without fail. That alone should clue you in that your "everything is fine" ad nauseam is based in something other than reality. 

Since nobody ever seems to bring this up: doesn't it feel incredibly janky that Fuelweaver can just block you from hitting the unseen hands by standing on them?
Doesn't it feel like a bug when you have upwards of 70 sanity and he still mind-controls you, when that's supposed to be something you need to be insane to have happen?  
Those two dubiously buggy issues make me hate the fight almost as much as the intended nonsense.

Also, you're seriously using console achievement statistics to argue about game balance? Please. If that few players are making it through their first winter, there's bigger issues afoot.

1 hour ago, Echsrick said:

i am just goin god mode and cheat for the fight wich is fair, given the game is cheating on me first with that whole fight with its.....weird design choices

Honestly, yeah, if Klei's gonna force us to deal with the worst-designed thing in the history of Don't Starve (on par with OG Crab King, but for some reason, relentlessly defended by a handful of very loud people with no sense of what normal people are like), I'm not gonna sugarcoat it:

c_spawn("shadowmeteor",500) is legitimate play against Fuelweaver if we don't get a rework.

[SilverSpoon]

3 hours ago, NoodlemanNed said:

playing solo isnt the intended way to kill bosses so it shouldnt be the biggest priority when designing them.

Nuh, Unless the game is a multiplayer MMO, all bosses should be solo-viable. Especially since it's too late to refund if the final boss of the game is nearly impossible to beat solo.

Considering that, I still don't think it's a good decision to make Wurt a DLC character. Wurt is the Messiah for solo players.

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

2. Resource dumping.
This is the stressful part! Managing so many different things at once while constantly burning through resources in an attempt not to become Sisyphus until you run out just kills all enjoyment. I'll go further into this later in the post.

Yeah, really, I really want to give a clear NooooO to this point. Prepare some of the most valuable in the game, orange gems, walrus tusks, and bolt goat horns, just for fighting the boss decently? That's personally a really Nuh-uh.

Wouldn't it be nice to at least include it in the treasure chest in the atrium? Then, instead of doing a speed run like a mouse running through the atrium every time, there will be a meaning to exploring. And good hint for newbie.

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

neither does feeling FW should be nerfed to CC's level instead of the other way around, neither does the fight being "too stressful". So it doesn't address the actual point which is that if the fight is too difficult to be enjoyed, the game gives you solutions.  The solutions are penalizing in terms of time/resources (and in characters switching, perhaps immersion or pride). With enough skill, you don't have to pay these penalties. That's good game design.

If they strengthen CC with the policy of "AFW difficulty", it would be like changing Wagstaff's quest from 1 time to 10 times. I absolutely don't want that.

[Dwight34]

1 hour ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Since nobody ever seems to bring this up: doesn't it feel incredibly janky that Fuelweaver can just block you from hitting the unseen hands by standing on them?

Definitely, which is why I think my suggestion from a few pages ago would solve that issue and make the fight fairer, if from time to time FW would stop a couple seconds to charge an attack then slam the ground which would destroy everything around him including his healers and unseen hands. FW's attacks (except cage) are extremely basic simple kiting in Phase 1, but in Phase 2 all his moves are extremely powerful and in quick succession, some middle-ground would be nice. FW could probably even retain the item juggling thing if he at least gave more breathing room, but the timings being so tight are what makes him so unbearable to so many.

I don't find it normal for a semi-experienced player to be forced to pause so many times during the fight just to get my bearings and have the slightest chance of doing things on time, no other boss in the game requires very well-refined reflexes, it's an obvious outlier and as confirmed by how people view it, it's an experiment that didn't succeed.

[grm9]

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Doesn't it feel like a bug when you have upwards of 70 sanity and he still mind-controls you, when that's supposed to be something you need to be insane to have happen?

he starts the attack when there're enough insane targets but it affects any one that's below 40% sanity (30% in case of maxwell)

26 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

Definitely, which is why I think my suggestion from a few pages ago would solve that issue and make the fight fairer, if from time to time FW would stop a couple seconds to charge an attack then slam the ground which would destroy everything around him including his healers and unseen hands. FW's attacks (except cage) are extremely basic simple kiting in Phase 1, but in Phase 2 all his moves are extremely powerful and in quick succession, some middle-ground would be nice. FW could probably even retain the item juggling thing if he at least gave more breathing room, but the timings being so tight are what makes him so unbearable to so many.

I don't find it normal for a semi-experienced player to be forced to pause so many times during the fight just to get my bearings and have the slightest chance of doing things on time, no other boss in the game requires very well-refined reflexes, it's an obvious outlier and as confirmed by how people view it, it's an experiment that didn't succeed

when'll you try using an easy strat instead of complaining about a not very easy strat being not very easy

[arubaro]

Calling something difficult unfair is hilarious.

Saying that is justified to cheat because the game "cheats at you" just shows the mind set behind the complains 

In a game with such easy ways of reviving, a game with a rollback mechanic, with a complex combat as pressing 1 single buttom to atack and another one to walk away, that has been receiving years of updates increasing the power of each character and how you can beat bosses by just bringing enough armor, which even the cheapest ones can protect you from 80% damage, and healing, which is cheap, blows my mind how people surrend that easily against a design that in most games wont feel much harder than the 2nd or 3rd boss after the tutorial

Seems like content not developed to be beaten at the 1st try effortless is unfair. 

No wonder why there are more people year after year incapable of doing some effort to leave their parent homes, search for job or any other task that isnt insta-easy boost of dopamine.

The p2w phone industry is signal of a disease

[Brago-sama]

9 hours ago, cropo said:

Dark Souls 2 is a better game than

I will eat you

9 hours ago, cropo said:

Dark Souls 1

Oh. Fair enough

[Bumber64]

7 hours ago, grm9 said:

last time we had a poll about FW on the forums 90% of people didn't want a FW rework

90%+ of players haven't seen atrium, don't know shadow pieces exist, probably haven't mined spilagmites, aren't on the forums.

36 minutes ago, arubaro said:

No wonder why there are more people year after year incapable of doing some effort to leave their parent homes, search for job or any other task that isnt insta-easy boost of dopamine.

"git gud irl"

[DegenerateFurry]

1 hour ago, arubaro said:

Calling something difficult unfair is hilarious.

Saying that is justified to cheat because the game "cheats at you" just shows the mind set behind the complains 

In a game with such easy ways of reviving, a game with a rollback mechanic, with a complex combat as pressing 1 single buttom to atack and another one to walk away, that has been receiving years of updates increasing the power of each character and how you can beat bosses by just bringing enough armor, which even the cheapest ones can protect you from 80% damage, and healing, which is cheap, blows my mind how people surrend that easily against a design that in most games wont feel much harder than the 2nd or 3rd boss after the tutorial

Seems like content not developed to be beaten at the 1st try effortless is unfair. 

No wonder why there are more people year after year incapable of doing some effort to leave their parent homes, search for job or any other task that isnt insta-easy boost of dopamine.

The p2w phone industry is signal of a disease

Y'know, you're really making it hard to take you seriously when you try to imply that it's the people who haven't sunk the required six thousand hours into practicing Fuelweaver who have no lives.

[00petar00]

I haven't read most of the posts but I am here to say my piece.

This was what I have expected would happen and you'll see more and more threads like this in the future.

While some replies from @grm9may be getting to some people, he is one of the few people that want difficulty but was defending lureplant cheese. (As was @Guille6785)

I do think that grm9 wanted lureplant cheese to stay because he could also predict that this would happen as DST has been getting easier over the years and this trend will continue because most players are always going to be casuals but it doesn't matter what his intentions are, it was good for the rest of us that used it.

 

My point is that most of this could've been avoided by leaving lureplant cheese as is. Klei is trying to curb cheese methods in a sandbox game where there is no competition. Most experienced players can kill FW before you can gather lureplants to cheese him and lureplants also require houndius shootius so its not like someone is going to rush AG and wait for spring before a good player can kill FW.

By removing lureplant cheese from FW it will result in nerfs over time or bigger buffs that aren't direct nerfs to trick players that don't want to see nerfs to FW but it will happen with skill trees or new items.

[Dwight34]

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

I haven't read most of the posts but I am here to say my piece.

This was what I have expected would happen and you'll see more and more threads like this in the future.

While some replies from @grm9may be getting to some people, he is one of the few people that want difficulty but was defending lureplant cheese. (As was @Guille6785)

I do think that grm9 wanted lureplant cheese to stay because he could also predict that this would happen as DST has been getting easier over the years and this trend will continue because most players are always going to be casuals but it doesn't matter what his intentions are, it was good for the rest of us that used it.

 

My point is that most of this could've been avoided by leaving lureplant cheese as is. Klei is trying to curb cheese methods in a sandbox game where there is no competition. Most experienced players can kill FW before you can gather lureplants to cheese him and lureplants also require houndius shootius so its not like someone is going to rush AG and wait for spring before a good player can kill FW.

By removing lureplant cheese from FW it will result in nerfs over time or bigger buffs that aren't direct nerfs to trick players that don't want to see nerfs to FW but it will happen with skill trees or new items.

I thought they tried to remove it but put it back in quickly, is the lureplant cheese not working anymore?

[SilverSpoon]

7 hours ago, arubaro said:

No wonder why there are more people year after year incapable of doing some effort to leave their parent homes, search for job or any other task that isnt insta-easy boost of dopamine.

The p2w phone industry is signal of a disease

If he doesn't get banned after saying all that, this forum is definitely being neglected by the admins, he probably wouldn't be banned if he literally hurled the N-word.

[cropo]

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

If he doesn't get banned after saying all that, this forum is definitely being neglected by the admins, he probably wouldn't be banned if he literally hurled the N-word.

I'd say to just ignore him; to literally brag about having a girlfriend and job and having the time to play video games to then acting like someone's attitude towards a video game boss is somehow evidence suggesting the housing crisis nearly every area is facing right now is the result of a bunch of brats with no motivation to do any work in their lives just really shows how acclimated he is to tedium for the sake of it.

He did the same thing on the Shadow Maul threads, equating attitude towards a game item with lack of success and motivation in real life like the game is a job. Funny he mentions dopamine, as it seems he's more likely the dopamine addict for being so attached to earning his victory under the most grueling of circumstances that the payoff of beating it is so strong that it justifies any possible issues with the boss design.


Ahem, not that I think Fuelweaver is a bad boss even if I complained about him earlier. But when someone is criticizing the design of a boss moveset and your only argument for preserving it is that it makes it "harder" and "more rewarding" to beat it is missing the point entirely, you can make things hard in better ways; I brought up comparisons to Dark Souls 1 and 2 because of this. The first game is definitely "easier" than the second, but it's far more memorable and enjoyable because you could really feel the love in the crafted design, and the lazyness in how DS2 tried to challenge the player by just throwing overwhelming ******** at them.

[SilverSpoon]

1 minute ago, cropo said:

I'd say to just ignore him; to literally brag about having a girlfriend and job and having the time to play video games to then acting like someone's attitude towards a video game boss is somehow evidence suggesting the housing crisis nearly every area is facing right now is the result of a bunch of brats with no motivation to do any work in their lives just really shows how acclimated he is to tedium for the sake of it.

He did the same thing on the Shadow Maul threads, equating attitude towards a game item with lack of success and motivation in real life like the game is a job. Funny he mentions dopamine, as it seems he's more likely the dopamine addict for being so attached to earning his victory under the most grueling of circumstances that the payoff of beating it is so strong that it justifies any possible issues with the boss design.

I know I should ignore him for my mental health, but if letting people like him go, one side's opinion will be suppressed. That's more important than my mental health.

He glue the forums all day every day, literally anyone who expresses an opinion he doesn't like harass around, being toxicity, personally attacking, condescending, and preaching the just "Git Gut" and "Skill Issue" spirit that is of no use to either developers or players. People like this are definition of harm in the game feedback space and must be banned.

[cropo]

To be fair we all have a little bit of that, I'm guilty of going on needless tirades myself.

[arubaro]

7 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Y'know, you're really making it hard to take you seriously when you try to imply that it's the people who haven't sunk the required six thousand hours into practicing Fuelweaver who have no lives.

Well, if you need 6k hours of practicing, then isnt the boss design faults.  Dont you think?

The only thing i know is that what i said is basic knowledge about how our brains work and that there are the same people asking for nerfs on every single piece of content klei releases

23 minutes ago, cropo said:

I'd say to just ignore him; to literally brag about having a girlfriend and job and having the time to play video games to then acting like someone's attitude towards a video game boss is somehow evidence suggesting the housing crisis nearly every area is facing right now is the result of a bunch of brats with no motivation to do any work in their lives just really shows how acclimated he is to tedium for the sake of it.

He did the same thing on the Shadow Maul threads, equating attitude towards a game item with lack of success and motivation in real life like the game is a job. Funny he mentions dopamine, as it seems he's more likely the dopamine addict for being so attached to earning his victory under the most grueling of circumstances that the payoff of beating it is so strong that it justifies any possible issues with the boss design.


Ahem, not that I think Fuelweaver is a bad boss even if I complained about him earlier. But when someone is criticizing the design of a boss moveset and your only argument for preserving it is that it makes it "harder" and "more rewarding" to beat it is missing the point entirely, you can make things hard in better ways; I brought up comparisons to Dark Souls 1 and 2 because of this. The first game is definitely "easier" than the second, but it's far more memorable and enjoyable because you could really feel the love in the crafted design, and the lazyness in how DS2 tried to challenge the player by just throwing overwhelming ******** at them.

What i said are facts about our brain.

Our brains are lazy and look after rewards at the minimal effort. The brain preffers low risk/effort-low reward rather than high effort-high reward. Not for nothing there are drug, p2w games, trashfood, etc addicts. If that is something to give me a ban, so be it, atleast im not posting commings only to hunt users i dissagree with without giving any kind of feedback.

What you said is just guessing about my personal life which, may not be the most fulfilling one, but not at all what you describe. Ironically, i have been happier than in years.

The only thing im guilty and, obv i know i kind of overreact, is the fear of klei listening to the many threads asking to make my favourite game so damn easy. We already got, and we will receive more,  skill trees with powerful and helpful combat abilities,  blows my mind how this isnt enough but on top of that people want to make bosses that requires less skill than most bosses in other games, be less difficult. Clearly klei added those perks to make prerift fightd easier.... but here we are.

Fights like FW is what can make dst combat something interesting,  dst has a lot of cool mechanics that arent used outside of klaus, fw, df and deerclops (freeze, fire and insanity). There are much potential unused

Instead you can see how some people happily accept being able to kill new enemies without them being able to foght back...is that a good design while FW's is bad??? I dont think so, i think the problem is in other place..

I dont have that much time to play games so investing time in new games is something i dont always feel like doing, dst is the game i can always come back when i dont have time or im too tired to play a new one

Lately, literally every piece of content klei releases with a minimal of difficulty makes the same cyclical discussion with the same users saying how unfair is...reviving literally takes some of the most common materials in the game and we are talking about the final boss that triggers the hard mode

 

[SilverSpoon]

52 minutes ago, cropo said:

To be fair we all have a little bit of that, I'm guilty of going on needless tirades myself.

I agree with you, but I'm thorough not to become toxic until the other person becomes toxic first. Responsibility of Drama lies with those who started it.

[grm9]

9 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

90%+ of players haven't seen atrium, don't know shadow pieces exist, probably haven't mined spilagmites, aren't on the forums

do i need to clarify that i'm talking about people that killed FW at least once every time

2 hours ago, Dwight34 said:

I thought they tried to remove it but put it back in quickly

they said that they'll add it back, but then didn't