Could the Fuelweaver fight just not have nightmare spawning?

[Dwight34]

5 minutes ago, arubaro said:

That is part of the fun. Winter was also stressful when you start the game blind or most well designed bosses in the videogames i played since i was a kid

When i want a chill experience i just play other kind of games made to have chill times... the game direction has been really sandboxy, i dont see the need of ruining an optional piece of content just because some people dont want a "stressful" moment in a survival game...

Stressful to this degree isn't part of the fun for me or the overwhelming majority of players, it's a radical shift compared to most everything in the game, CC is infinitely more forgiving for example despite also being "the end game boss that unlocks the rifts". Making FW fairer would certainly not be ruining (except for the prideful sad people I described) and FW is not "optional" in the honest sense of the word, Toadstool is optional, FW locks behind him a massive portion of the end game and extremely good loot as well as the regeneration of the entire ruin. If you call FW optional, then Deerclops, getting a walking cane and everything except not dying is "optional".

Also, winter is stressful due to lack of knowledge, FW even with perfect knowledge is stressful because he requires extremely quick thinking and smooth movements and actions and is very resource-intensive with many ways to mess up immensely. FW requires real-life mechanical training (thankfully mitigated by the pause button, thanks Klei for that), and if you don't care for being on top of the leaderboard of CS:GO, it's not something you tend to have. All other bosses require you to be smart, only FW wants you to be mechanically gifted arbitrarily and against everything else the game has stood for.

[SilverSpoon]

The reason why AFW was often cheesed before is because so much no one wanted to fight AFW.

Celestial Champion is a good example of the AFW controversy. There are almost no voices calling for a rework of CC. I think even many AFW haters enjoy fighting CC. CC have many "fun difficulty" and doesn't have the "annoying difficulty" of AFW that's already been written about here.

Dwight34 would probably enjoy fighting the Celestial Champion as well, right?

[Dwight34]

6 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

The reason why AFW was often cheesed before is because so much no one wanted to fight AFW.

Celestial Champion is a good example of the AFW controversy. There are almost no voices calling for a rework of CC. I think even many AFW haters enjoy fighting CC. CC have many "fun difficulty" and doesn't have the "annoying difficulty" of AFW that's already been written about here.

Dwight34 would probably enjoy fighting the Celestial Champion as well, right?

Indeed, I really like him. Many different moves, 3 phases but the boss doesn't even reset after you've completed one, it only regens health if you really go super far away... And it does way too much damage to just tank holding F, but all its attacks are fair and only the lasers can be difficult to consistently dodge. CC is pretty much a perfect boss fight to me, and Klei has made the process of summoning him much less tedious since it's 1 wagstaff minigame per summon instead of 3.

AFW was (and still is, I believe the Hondius cheese still works?) cheesed because his difficulty, stress and mechanical requirement vastly outweigh the fun component for a normal player, and unlike youtubers and the likes, most players don't start test worlds to train boss fights for 30 minutes or an hour. They just want to play the game, and telling them "you don't deserve to enjoy this part of the game if you're not good enough!!!!" is something they rightfully won't care about, they'll find the easiest way to beat the thing, and if it's cheesing then that's what they'll do.

CC is 10/10, Nightmare Werepig is a 9 (I would put 10 if he didn't have the obnoxious healing and had some leash range from his arena, I once had a ridiculous situation where a slurtle attracted him, and he kept sprinting away lunging at the slurtle hiding in its shell), CK is an 8 (great design but way too difficult, I prefer to grind 60 gunpowder).

[Echsrick]

just remove the healing move he can do, unfun to play against in every way, its worse then dying honestly because dying means its full on reset, while healing only prolongs the suffering

[Dwight34]

3 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

just remove the healing move he can do, unfun to play against in every way, its worse then dying honestly because dying means its full on reset, while healing only prolongs the suffering

The healing move can definitely be unfun, but it's part of his identity and the very reason he only has 10k hp (first 6k don't count). Adjusting it sure (though I maintain the cage move is by far the worst aspect of the fight) but removing it I doubt would be a good move.

[Wonz]

5 hours ago, grm9 said:

why? you can dodge it through going 3.75 or more tiles away from FW, it just needs an indicator for this for more people to realise that that's possible

you can stay above 10% sanity for being insane but limiting nightmare spawns to 1 crawling horror and 1 crawling horror really'sn't an issue

imo that should stay because that's like the 1 thing that can be done for punishing a player with a lot of armor and healing's mistake

as another option

(this can also be done with 2 wolfgangs with a volt goat jelly for each, a dark sword from shadow pieces for 1 and a glass cutter from lunar for the other and wet world)

That's why boss health+ rewards scaling with number of players would be nice.

[grm9]

56 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

Celestial Champion is a good example of the AFW controversy. There are almost no voices calling for a rework of CC

i'd want reworks for CC, werepig, werepig 2, frost jaw, twins and mutated bosses since they're boring but i don't talk about that any more because i know that that won't happen

1 hour ago, Dwight34 said:

I cite a message starting with "The Challenge", I mention challenge in my reply, and someone goes "wHeRe dId yOu sEe tHe wOrD ChAlLeNgE? wHy aRe yOu mAkInG ThIs uP?"

the word was mentioned once as simply a synonym for "hard", not the challenges that you were talking about

45 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

it does way too much damage to just tank holding F

wrong

https://youtu.be/AE9F_FwOfwY

56 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

The reason why AFW was often cheesed before is because so much no one wanted to fight AFW

or because he was the only boss in the game that most people couldn't do on the 1st ever attempt even with over preparation but no gun powder until bright shade staff got added

1 hour ago, Dwight34 said:

very resource-intensive

literally 1 foot ball helm if doing minimal gear when playing as wolfgang since you get night armor and dark sword from shadow pieces

1 hour ago, Dwight34 said:

FW requires real-life mechanical training

not really, you only need to cast weather pain once every 5 seconds if using it and there're also many easier strats e.g. bramble husk, bramble trap, bright shade staff, catapult, sort of abigail, willow's lunar fire, wigfrid's lightning spear etc.

45 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

most players don't start test worlds to train boss fights for 30 minutes or an hour

then get weather pain or bright shade staff?

56 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

CC have many "fun difficulty"

no, it simply has no fun nor difficulty imo since dodging all of it's attacks's extremely simple and easy, 1 of them literally only requires holding forward for like 5 seconds

[Dwight34]

21 minutes ago, grm9 said:

wrong

https://youtu.be/AE9F_FwOfwY

 

Kek, uses wolfgang with 4 marble armors and 7 football helmets and volt-goat jelly on wet CC as well as healing, end with only 1 marble armor and 2 football helmet, not at all dishonest, very accurate representation of a normal bossfight to use a literal 5 times multiplier to damage (6 if it's chili powdered, but I can't tell from the video). Next time just activate the 1hit cheat mode and punch it to death, that'll be even quicker. How do you not spontaneously combust from embarrassment at being so pitifully dishonest? And you DARE talk about challenges, when you base what the game should be on a 5 TIMES DAMAGE MULTIPLIER. You're a joke, damn, thanks for the laugh.

21 minutes ago, grm9 said:

i'd want reworks for CC, werepig, werepig 2, frost jaw, twins and mutated bosses since they're boring but i don't talk about that any more because i know that that won't happen

"They're boring" is code for "People actually manage to beat them, and I can't larp as being better than the general playerbase when it comes to those bosses so I become mad". You don't fool anyone, everyone knows what you are and why you are so dishonest.

[grm9]

13 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

Kek, uses wolfgang with 4 marble armors and 7 football helmets and volt-goat jelly on wet CC as well as healing, end with only 1 marble armor and 2 football helmet, not at all dishonest, very accurate representation of a normal bossfight to use a literal 5 times multiplier to damage (6 if it's chili powdered, but I can't tell from the video). Next time just activate the 1hit cheat mode and punch it to death, that'll be even quicker. How do you not spontaneously combust from embarrassment at being so pitifully dishonest?And you DARE talk about challenges, when you base what the game should be on a 5 TIMES DAMAGE MULTIPLIER. You're a joke, damn, thanks for the laugh

???

that's extremely stupid, why's spending 3 purple gems and 3 moon rocks on swapping to warly and wolfgang and back to what ever character you were playing as that bad? dishonest about what? who even was talking about

13 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

what the game should be

?

13 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

"They're boring" is code for "People actually manage to beat them, and I can't larp as being better than the general playerbase when it comes to those bosses so I become mad"

that's extremely stupid and the assumption's from literally no where

i want them to get reworked because there's only 1 strat for fighting all of them and it's extremely simple to execute, yes i want things to be hard because most easy things're too simple to be fun and end up seeming like wastes of time instead of things that could get achieved or accomplished, i don't care about other people being able or unable to do them, i literally asked for klei to bring cheese back for bosses so that more people could get through them even though they don't like the fight or think that it's too hard for them and asked for bone cage range indicator to get added for more people to realise that dodging it's a thing

13 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

You don't fool anyone, everyone knows what you are and why you are so dishonest

no, you're the only person that i've seen assume that about me because i never talk about wanting to prevent people from doing some thing because of thinking that they're too bad at a game

[Dwight34]

3 minutes ago, grm9 said:

???

that's extremely stupid, why's spending 3 purple gems and 3 moon rocks on swapping to warly and wolfgang and back to what ever character you were playing as that bad? dishonest about what? who even was talking about

"hUr dUhR PlAyInG WiTh a 6 tImEs dAmAgE MuLtIpLiEr iS NoRmAl gAmEpLaY ThAt wE ShOuLd bE BaSiNg tHe gAmE'S BaLaNcE ArOuNd, I Am vErY SmOrT"

How shameless can you be? I have no words to express that, new words would need to be created to express your condition. Do everyone a favor and stop replying, go learn basic honesty and game-design instead.

[grm9]

18 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

"hUr dUhR PlAyInG WiTh a 6 tImEs dAmAgE MuLtIpLiEr iS NoRmAl gAmEpLaY ThAt wE ShOuLd bE BaSiNg tHe gAmE'S BaLaNcE ArOuNd, I Am vErY SmOrT"

seems like trolling at this point, i didn't even mention normal game play or balance, i simply shown you that tanking it's possible

18 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

How shameless can you be? I have no words to express that, new words would need to be created to express your condition. Do everyone a favor and stop replying, go learn basic honesty and game-design instead

also seemingly just an attempt for getting an angry reply with no information for reaching a conclusion about practically any thing except possibly you

[Echsrick]

anyone else gettin the feeling that arobu and gr9 are the same person? just....feeling like that

[Dwight34]

19 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

anyone else gettin the feeling that arobu and gr9 are the same person? just....feeling like that

Maybe, but the archetype makes this kind of people so similar it's hard to tell.

[Szczuku]

I think it'd be weird if the former ruler of the ancient civilization didin't have his subjects backing him up during the fight.

Maybe we could have terrorbeaks and crawling horrors staying in the sidelines and buffing AF's damage or something as a compromise?

You'd no longer have to deal with multiple enemies but fighting AF while insane would still be punished

[BalkanCockroach]

8 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

I think it'd be weird if the former ruler of the ancient civilization didin't have his subjects backing him up during the fight.

Maybe we could have terrorbeaks and crawling horrors staying in the sidelines and buffing AF's damage or something as a compromise?

You'd no longer have to deal with multiple enemies but fighting AF while insane would still be punished

Well, AFW is trying to stop you from fixing the gate and bringing "Them" in. Charlie and the shadows want the gate fixed. So shadow creatures backing him doesn't really make sense. They aren't his subjects anymore, they are her subjects.

[IAmAFurrz]

7 hours ago, grm9 said:

as another option

(this can also be done with 2 wolfgangs with a volt goat jelly for each, a dark sword from shadow pieces for 1 and a glass cutter from lunar for the other and wet world)

this is moreso a discussion on boss fight design, and what would make the fight fantastic with less severe snowballing on the boss (basically crabkings healing pre rework), so 'just do this' type answers i feel don't do anything to add to the discussion

7 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Brightshade staff is way too late game

its really not that late lol, but i get the point of 'grindy isnt fun'. i do love that players can just deal with woven shadows and unseen hands without it, its pretty doable cuz i was able to do it and im not really good

 

6 hours ago, grm9 said:

yes i just want the fight to not get dumbed down for me to be able to still fight the version of the boss that i consider as fun so i end up needing to talk about that

i genuinely havent seen you add any suggestion nor add any opinion on my suggestion

[Maxposting]

1 hour ago, BalkanCockroach said:

Well, AFW is trying to stop you from fixing the gate and bringing "Them" in. Charlie and the shadows want the gate fixed. So shadow creatures backing him doesn't really make sense. They aren't his subjects anymore, they are her subjects.

Fuelweaver is actually interesting, since he's the only person-turned-shadow rebelling against the Shadows, it makes sense he can still use shadows to heal and protect himself since he has more power than the regular shadow, but he still gets easily destroyed by Charlie.

[grm9]

1 hour ago, BalkanCockroach said:

the shadows want the gate fixed

do they even think? she might just be controlling them, with FW being able to override the control because of both, shadow power stuff and having them all know him as a king before getting turned into a shadow

49 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

this is moreso a discussion on boss fight design, and what would make the fight fantastic with less severe snowballing on the boss (basically crabkings healing pre rework), so 'just do this' type answers i feel don't do anything to add to the discussion

that was a reply to another user's reply, not to the 1st post, either way saying how to counter stuff that you think should get removed makes sense i think, nightmares now deaggro after a few seconds after you become sane and you can limit spawns to 1 crawling horror so imo it's fine

49 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

i genuinely havent seen you add any suggestion nor add any opinion on my suggestion

8 hours ago, grm9 said:

you can stay above 10% sanity for being insane but limiting nightmare spawns to 1 crawling horror and 1 crawling horror really'sn't an issue

[BalkanCockroach]

Just now, Maxposting said:

but he still gets easily destroyed by Charlie.

Only after we kick the ever living shirt out of him.

[grm9]

18 minutes ago, Maxposting said:

but he still gets easily destroyed by Charlie

i mean, you do need to deal 16k damage to him for that to happen, she doesn't just insta kill him after the start of the fight, it also seems to be more of a capture since shadows seem to try to go away from bones during death with bone helm and armor, thurible etc. as drops like during the gate way got turned off death but then got snapped back after a vine hit a bone

[Well-met]

No, as they are absolutely necessary to deal with multiple players.

A check to stop them when you're solo could be nice though

[DegenerateFurry]

9 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

The reason why AFW was often cheesed before is because so much no one wanted to fight AFW.

Celestial Champion is a good example of the AFW controversy. There are almost no voices calling for a rework of CC. I think even many AFW haters enjoy fighting CC. CC have many "fun difficulty" and doesn't have the "annoying difficulty" of AFW that's already been written about here.

Dwight34 would probably enjoy fighting the Celestial Champion as well, right?

As a peer-reviewed and board-certified AFW hater, I can confirm, I do love fighting CC.

7 hours ago, Echsrick said:

anyone else gettin the feeling that arobu and gr9 are the same person? just....feeling like that

Maybe in spirit, they are, but they type differently enough that I think they're different people.

[Bumber64]

14 hours ago, grm9 said:

why? you can dodge it through going 3.75 or more tiles away from FW, it just needs an indicator for this for more people to realise that that's possible

"Just dodge 3.75+ tiles (return trip not included) every 10 seconds." What a fun li'l mechanic!

This is the single worst part of the entire fight, considering it's what lets him do a full heal in solo.

inb4 lock, I guess, given how this thread went.

[NoodlemanNed]

14 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

CC have many "fun difficulty" and doesn't have the "annoying difficulty"

celestial champion just lacks any real difficulty, to the point where it feels like im cheesing the boss just by using armor/healing items.

nobody complains because its a passable experience that doesnt evoke much of any emotion. My best comparison would be a bland marvel movie.

Fuelweaver is a lot different because its a fun fight, but only for those who are dedicated enough to learn the nuances of the fight. This means that some players will defend the fight as its extremely well designed for their playstyle. Meanwhile others will say its one of the worst fights in the game because it forces them to do something they dont like, or just craft a brightshade staff which makes the fight a lot easier than even CC.

[Guille6785]

12 hours ago, Echsrick said:

anyone else gettin the feeling that arobu and gr9 are the same person? just....feeling like that

but I thought I was grm