Can we get Boss scaling?

[Wonz]

If there's sometimes 5 players fighting one boss it gets absolutely annihilated and then everyone jumps to the loot like if it was popped pińata but with just two candies inside.

Could bosses get more health and/or become stronger against groups in some more creative way the more players fight them so fights don't last just 30 seconds and can everyone participating count on rewards?

Pretty much just like terraria's rewards.

 

If you know mod(s) you can recommend me that do that pretty please send link I searched but some are not that configurable or do the thing but insignificantly.

[Dragonboooorn]

1 minute ago, Wonz said:

If there's sometimes 5 players fighting one boss it gets absolutely annihilated and then everyone jumps to the loot like if it was popped pińata but with just two candies inside.

Could bosses get more health and/or become stronger against groups in some more creative way the more players fight them so fights don't last just 30 seconds and can everyone participating count on rewards?

Pretty much just like terraria's rewards.

 

If you know mod(s) you can recommend me that do that pretty please send link I searched but some are not that configurable or do the thing but insignificantly.

The problem is not that the bosses are easy, but that the game itself became much more easier and forgiving. Look how strong characters are now, how easy its to make heal now, even marble suit costs only 6 marbles instead of 12. Its little things that adds up and make diffrence.

[Wonz]

On 9/27/2024 at 3:45 PM, Dragonboooorn said:

The problem is not that the bosses are easy, but that the game itself became much more easier and forgiving.

Also i never said they were easy or too hard I said they die too fast with too many players.

On 9/27/2024 at 3:45 PM, Dragonboooorn said:

Look how strong characters are now, how easy its to make heal now, even marble suit costs only 6 marbles instead of 12

Marble suit being cheaper doesn't make it harder to make but less tedious because you have to wait less for the marble trees to grow up. Waiting isn't hard, it's not fun though, that's good change. The fun stuff like fights should last longer and the not fun stuff be shorter. Before we started getting 4x turfs per craft I didn't even consider getting them.

 

Fighting with 4 extra homies was always 5x faster than fighting alone no matter what the updates in past did and that's the subject I am talking about.

Edit: Also i forgot to ask, when was don't starve together not easy? I play only since terraria update so I could not know.

[arubaro]

3 minutes ago, Wonz said:

Waiting isn't hard, it's not fun though, that's good change.

While you are right at the same time having stuff being costly makes the player look after other solutions that might make things less easy instead of just waiting for an easier experience 

[NoodlemanNed]

8 minutes ago, Dragonboooorn said:

The problem is not that the bosses are easy, but that the game itself became much more easier and forgiving. Look how strong characters are now, how easy its to make heal now, even marble suit costs only 6 marbles instead of 12. Its little things that adds up and make diffrence.

the game has always been this easy, pierogi were always very easy to cook, and even non marble armour makes you effectively invincible. Even the point about characters getting buffed doesnt even matter if youve fought bosses with a group of players. The game being easy for you is just a result of learning the game better.

That being said, multiplayer is the most overpowered thing in this game right now. Bosses are not balanced around multiplayer, enemies evaporate if more than 3 players stare at it menacingly. There are plenty of issues when it comes to scaling, even terraria's system is riddled with flaws. However i do think that the original point of this thread is a pretty fair complaint and is in no way related to characters becoming stronger via refreshes and skill trees.

[Edible Coal]

i mean the whole point of multiplayer is to allow more people to dog on one boss, they cant really design a boss specifically for multiplayer or else solo player be sad

More people means your base can have more resource ,which mean easier gameplay

[goblinball]

55 minutes ago, Edible Coal said:

they cant really design a boss specifically for multiplayer or else solo player be sad

Toadstool:

[Ridley]

Boss scaling has been a reoccurring suggestion for a long time. I think one of the reasons it's not taken up is because the bosses are a low priority in general, even for someone like me who also asks for boss scaling. Skill trees, rift content, world changes, QOL changes, skins, etc are usually more desired. There are also people who don't want boss changes in general, usually out of the concern they'd become easier or changed too much for the worse, though I don't see pushback to the idea that bosses should be as interesting as fighting with a group as they can be alone.

Some bosses should probably get a tune up before balancing for scaling. Poor Dragonfly, I think you've gone untouched since they allowed you to fly over campfires. You always sit in the middle of your arena even though you have the ability to wander around it. Your stun mechanic makes multiplayer even easier and your Larvae spawning phase also has some peculiarities in it. If you were tied to quest progression like Crab King and Ancient Guardian then you probably would have a shiny new coat of paint by now.

Klei will probably do something related to scaling one day. They tend to take less obvious paths then what we come up with. I wanted auto-chest stacking like Terraria has and I didn't even realize that is what Wo-Bot is for. I was using him to automate resource collection when I don't even care about that.

 

[grm9]

Just now, goblinball said:

Toadstool:

the 5 minute timer for killing toad that they removed after 1 week? current toad doesn't require more people in comparison to 1, they just made it's hp big for no reason

1 minute ago, Ridley said:

Crab King and Ancient Guardian

(1st was good and became shitty and 2nd was bad and became worse since you're forced to spend time on a boring fight now, even being afk with a rock on F button when fighting old AG was more fun in comparison to fighting current AG)

i think that we shouldn't risk them potentially making another boss shitty

[Ratituee]

its kind of a slippery slope, but i at least think there should be a bit of scaling below 3 players

[grm9]

5 hours ago, Ratituee said:

its kind of a slippery slope, but i at least think there should be a bit of scaling below 3 players

playing with 3 people's easy mode so i think that it shouldn't be considered as how you're supposed to fight bosses, bosses also already became easier since we got character reworks and skill trees (wolfgang getting x2 damage for standing still for 10 seconds before the fight instead of needing to get 50 carrots, willow getting AoE damage and panic, woodie becoming viable, wurt getting 2 merms per merm etc.)

i don't want to get forced into either getting 2 afk people or playing on easy mode

[arubaro]

6 hours ago, Ratituee said:

its kind of a slippery slope, but i at least think there should be a bit of scaling below 3 players

Im pretty sure that the way klei is making bosses easier for single players is adding dumb buffs via skill trees so, they are already scaling the entire game, not only bosses

[Gashzer]

12 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Im pretty sure that the way klei is making bosses easier for single players is adding dumb buffs via skill trees so, they are already scaling the entire game, not only bosses

Bosses not only need downward scaling for single players (to remove tedium) but they need upwards scaling (have larger than current health pool) for more players with increased loot drops so people don't have to fight over blueprints for example.

[ZeRoboButler]

Only thing I can see that is a probable reality, is the bosses being made tougher in some meaningful way and thusly having more or better drops.

I don't foresee klei toning down bosses beyond what we have now, if anything the ideal would be them having better reasons for tougher fights. Ideally the player should work towards a meaningful reward, toadstool kinda spits in the face of this idea to a degree with his lack luster loot, but that could be improved with some thought. Perhaps some of the mushcaps could have some functionality changes and acquisition changes to make way for something more compelling, question is, what would be a good/desirable thing for toadstool to drop beyond a lamp and a sleep bomb that most use to clone his skin? 

[HeatAndRun]

A good example of the boss scaling would be the Klaus spawning krampii and magic fields depending on the numbers of players.

[Wonz]

11 hours ago, HeatAndRun said:

A good example of the boss scaling would be the Klaus spawning krampii and magic fields depending on the numbers of players.

Yeah that's the more creative way than just upping the health

[beefaloooooo]

Agreed with u

[DegenerateFurry]

What I want to see is optional dynamic scaling. Scaling is on by default so that it's a thing in Klei servers, but there should be an option that lets you manually set how many players a boss's HP is scaled for when you're making a world. 3 players would be current boss scaling.
I'd also like there to be a separate adjustable for mechanical scaling, which is things like the duration of the window between Fuelweaver's invincibility/Woven summoning, how many Grumblebees Bee Queen produces, and how many sporecaps Toadstool spawns. 3 players would also be the current boss scaling for this setting.
Using mods, I've found that many of the problems I have with fighting Fuelweaver solo go away if the window where I'm not having to deal with invincibility and woven shadows is longer since that gives me more time to actually do damage to him between inventory management gimmick sections.

What do I mean by "dynamic scaling"? Simple: the boss, upon being summoned/aggroing, will adjust its health/mechanics (one time per spawn) to the number of players in the immediate area. If you have three people by Bee Queen's hive when you hammer it, she has her current HP. If you're the only one within render distance of it, her max HP is lower. With the mechanics slider set to dynamic, it's the number of Grumblebees that'd get adjusted - for a single player, it'd be less than now.

However, the dynamic scaling would also work in the opposite direction. Fighting a boss with a full twelve players present for its summoning could make its health go up to four times what it currently is. I feel that's fair since if you have a full group of twelve players, you're going to shred just about anything unless all twelve of those players are fresh installs with no armor and weapons. 

[xDarkSoul18x]

Old post but still super important IMO. As a (mostly) single player, high HP pools are what make me not want to fight bosses multiple times. Heck even in general with mobs. Like why does a Rook jump from 300HP to 900!? (Solo DS vs DST). This is what creates these power climbs and makes early-mid game items even in the early-mid game irrelevant. Why use any other weapon and have to sit there smacking on something, a non-boss enemy even, for 5 minutes when I can just rush the ruins for a club or spiders to force feed a pig to get a hambat? I do believe adjustments need to be made, even if an option. We already have damage taken modifiers why not add an optional scaling option? 

Better yet why don't they just add "Hard Mode" options to bosses like how toadstool has? I'd actually be more inclined to fight in general and do bosses in this game if it wasn't just such a slog and chore. Like Guardian goes from 2500HP to 10,000HP. D-Fly from 2750HP to 27,500HP. .I'm not saying they need to be completely trivial or reduced to their Solo DS equivalent but like come on. Not everyone plays Wolfgang or Wanda. 

[dst_lover]

3 minutes ago, xDarkSoul18x said:

Old post but still super important IMO. As a (mostly) single player, high HP pools are what make me not want to fight bosses multiple times. Heck even in general with mobs. Like why does a Rook jump from 300HP to 900!? (Solo DS vs DST). This is what creates these power climbs and makes early-mid game items even in the early-mid game irrelevant. Why use any other weapon and have to sit there smacking on something, a non-boss enemy even, for 5 minutes when I can just rush the ruins for a club or spiders to force feed a pig to get a hambat? I do believe adjustments need to be made, even if an option. We already have damage taken modifiers why not add an optional scaling option? 

Better yet why don't they just add "Hard Mode" options to bosses like how toadstool has? I'd actually be more inclined to fight in general and do bosses in this game if it wasn't just such a slog and chore. Like Guardian goes from 2500HP to 10,000HP. D-Fly from 2750HP to 27,500HP. .I'm not saying they need to be completely trivial or reduced to their Solo DS equivalent but like come on. Not everyone plays Wolfgang or Wanda. 

the thing is it’s unfair to compare the two because a lot of characters are way stronger then their DS version and DS doesn’t have rollback or other options like DST and just so you know if the Rook have 300 hp Wolfgang can just 2 shot him with a glass or dark sword with his skill tree 

and to my I actually love bosses that have between 15000 and 30000 more then bosses with low hp because they give me a reason to fight more ways and be creative like imagine if the bee queen have only 2700 do you think people will not just tank her or spam pan flute on her 

but I actually doesn’t maid if they add it as an option because a lot of people struggle to fight or kill some bosses or just find it boring 

[Evelo]

the only thing I want is to reduce the HP of some bosses by like 25%. Namely bee queen, toadstool, and dragonfly. CC is surpisingly not that bad despite being a damage sponge because it has 3 distinct phases that you can clear and come back to at any time. Meanwhile the other 3 have to be slain within the span of 1 fight. Which is just boring as a solo player. As for AFW the fight only suffers from the "too much stuff to do" where the healing is the punishing effect because it is quite difficult to deal with if you have any impairments to playing the game.

[xDarkSoul18x]

1 hour ago, dst_lover said:

the thing is it’s unfair to compare the two because a lot of characters are way stronger then their DS version and DS doesn’t have rollback or other options like DST and just so you know if the Rook have 300 hp Wolfgang can just 2 shot him with a glass or dark sword with his skill tree 

and to my I actually love bosses that have between 15000 and 30000 more then bosses with low hp because they give me a reason to fight more ways and be creative like imagine if the bee queen have only 2700 do you think people will not just tank her or spam pan flute on her 

but I actually doesn’t maid if they add it as an option because a lot of people struggle to fight or kill some bosses or just find it boring 

Yeah, that is why I think it shouldn't be just 1 to 1 conversion, but I still think 27,500/52,500 HP on a boss for a single player is a bit much. Now if it was something that was a legit "You beat the game" boss, maaaybe there is wiggle room. You just used a perfect example of the power climb and stuff I'm talking about. The game shouldn't revolve around "Well Wolfgang. . " IMO. 

[Ridley]

1 hour ago, dst_lover said:

the thing is it’s unfair to compare the two because a lot of characters are way stronger then their DS version 

This was big gripe of mine when DST first came out and the characters were almost unchanged. The addition of skill trees and other tools came years later.

1 hour ago, dst_lover said:

DS doesn’t have rollback or other options like DST

I used to cheat to kill raid bosses but hated how I'd become reliant on rolling back every time something bad happened. I don't care how people play but I've seen rolling back called a mechanic instead being equated to something more like console commands. So the conversation becomes, "If you think something is too hard or unfair, it can't be, just use the rollback mechanic."

Rollingback probably retained a lot of players over the years. So at least there's that.

 

[arubaro]

5 hours ago, xDarkSoul18x said:

Heck even in general with mobs. Like why does a Rook jump from 300HP to 900!?

Because 300hp was as ridiculous as the hp from bosses like quacken, pugalisk or iron hulk...

[Bumber64]

4 hours ago, xDarkSoul18x said:

You just used a perfect example of the power climb and stuff I'm talking about. The game shouldn't revolve around "Well Wolfgang. . " IMO. 

Yeah, but Wilson got torch tree. Everybody got something, you see.