Genuine Question to Klei: What is the point of planar?

[lenship2]

On 8/26/2024 at 3:26 PM, Masked Koopa said:

 Using minion spam as non-minion based characters remains ineffective.

On 8/26/2024 at 3:26 PM, Masked Koopa said:

 Klei thinks high damage multipliers and/or minion spam is too strong for current combat and want your next phase of combat to nerf doing this.

these two options just aren't plausible. the planar entity reduction function is exponential instead of multiplicative, meaning that breaking a strong attack into multiple smaller attacks will actually do more damage against a planar enemy.

for example, 3 spiders dealing a combined 60 normal damage in a single attack; against a planar mob, this damage would only be reduced to 48, because each 20 damage from the spider would be reduced to 16. meanwhile, a single darksword attack doing 68 damage would be reduced to 41 damage.

in practice, the numbers would be a lot bigger, and by extension the gap between multiple small attacks and single big attacks would be more pronounced. 

tl;dr math stuff says this is wrong because prioritizing minion damage actually does more damage against planar entities

[cropo]

On 8/26/2024 at 3:13 PM, Echsrick said:

what i realy hate and dont understand why planar defense? just to make the good old stuff arbitary bad against planar stuff? i mean with planar weapon there pretty much is no point in using not planar weapon, even if it does as much damage as the old darksword, only reason to use planar stuff is for farming...more planar stuff....wich is.....why at that point?

Actually I think planar defense has given a possible encouragement to use body-slot armors.  Helmet+backpack is still king, with a few fringe uses of marble suits and other armors but now I can wear a piece of armor and not just have it be an economic choice of dividing durability loss, but is another piece of armor that helps me survive. Imo that's at least one good thing about planar defense.

[Masked Koopa]

1 hour ago, cropo said:

Actually I think planar defense has given a possible encouragement to use body-slot armors.  Helmet+backpack is still king, with a few fringe uses of marble suits and other armors but now I can wear a piece of armor and not just have it be an economic choice of dividing durability loss, but is another piece of armor that helps me survive. Imo that's at least one good thing about planar defense.

That's a pretty fair point, although that still only really acts as a point in favour of planar defense on players. I haven't read/thought of any reason to have planar attack on players.

[Echsrick]

7 hours ago, cropo said:

Actually I think planar defense has given a possible encouragement to use body-slot armors.  Helmet+backpack is still king, with a few fringe uses of marble suits and other armors but now I can wear a piece of armor and not just have it be an economic choice of dividing durability loss, but is another piece of armor that helps me survive. Imo that's at least one good thing about planar defense.

....yea...ahm...i say planar defense in not player armour but in enemies having those, that they arbitary nerf every not planar weapon because of it

[Valase]

Is it that time of the month?

TLDR. from all the previous threads: You can't make better weapons nor better armor without planar.

[arubaro]

25 minutes ago, Valase said:

Is it that time of the month?

TLDR. from all the previous threads: You can't make better weapons nor better armor without planar.

And why dst needed better weapons? Adding stuff like morning star, batbat or strident trident is way more interesting that just making a flat weapon with higher numbers

Before we have a nice variety of weapons. Now you simply pick the shadow or moon high durability glass cutter and never think about what to use again

And talking about glass cutters...is hilarious how klei killed it. Making the moon orb a crafting station after defending celestial champion was the only opportunity to use them (and to waste some glass...) but now defeating CC simply makes them pointless . Something similar will happen with the glass axes if people charge mauls and bundle them until needed 

[Juanasdf]

On 8/27/2024 at 1:18 PM, Masked Koopa said:

but what I don't understand is why the next tier gear isn't really substantially different nor difficult to obtain.

You say this as if hambats and football helms (which are viable vs any of the current bosses) weren't as easy to obtain if you just take a day or two relocating pig houses...
I see the brightshade equipment a bit hard to get at first (at least in my case because i like to craft a pair of each piece of equipment minus shoevel) and a breeze to maintain (due to how cheap the repair kits are).

But imo the repair kits being cheap and easy to get shouldn't be looked as a flaw of their design, on the contrary, they are part of the reward of opening the rifts. That and the fact that you won't need to carry a stack of twigs, gold, grass and stone to replace your old tools when you're away from your base (and also the fact that the two brightshade tools act as 2, saving up on even more space)

[Masked Koopa]

36 minutes ago, Juanasdf said:

You say this as if hambats and football helms (which are viable vs any of the current bosses) weren't as easy to obtain if you just take a day or two relocating pig houses...
I see the brightshade equipment a bit hard to get at first (at least in my case because i like to craft a pair of each piece of equipment minus shoevel) and a breeze to maintain (due to how cheap the repair kits are).

The thing is while those might be viable and reasonably maintainable, there is absolutely no denying that Brightshade gear is way better. My question is specifically what the benefit is of excluding the FB helm or Hambat or indeed Dark Sword via planar. Especially given that the way that Brightshades practically force themselves upon the player anyway. I think if we lived in a world where the shadow rifts were the only way to obtain planar gear id at least understand planar as the motivation to take on the optional and quite difficult Ink Blights.

41 minutes ago, Juanasdf said:

But imo the repair kits being cheap and easy to get shouldn't be looked as a flaw of their design, on the contrary, they are part of the reward of opening the rifts. That and the fact that you won't need to carry a stack of twigs, gold, grass and stone to replace your old tools when you're away from your base (and also the fact that the two brightshade tools act as 2, saving up on even more space)

As ive said already I love the Brightshade gear - I don't see them being cheap or easy to get as a flaw with their design, I see it as a flaw with the design of planar specifically. In my eyes the old Brightshade gear did much more to justify planar existing specifically because it wasn't cheap or easy to get - planar gave it a reason to exist despite its flaws. If I had full creative control over DST my move would probably be to remove planar damage dealt by players and enemies having planar defense. It wouldn't be making the Brightshade gear unfun to obtain or maintain.

The reason I discuss these aspects as an issue is specifically because in my eyes it is an issue with Klei's design. I.E if they want planar to fulfill x purpose they would have to do y. Doesn't mean I like y or think x purpose is a good idea, but I would rather Klei implement what they aim to implement rather than be under the misconception that their design is working as intended.

[grm9]

1 hour ago, Valase said:

TLDR. from all the previous threads: You can't make better weapons nor better armor without planar

you can and they did, bright shade sword and shadow scythe'd've been better even without it

[Masked Koopa]

1 hour ago, Valase said:

Is it that time of the month?

TLDR. from all the previous threads: You can't make better weapons nor better armor without planar.

But they literally are better. The Brightshade sword does the same damage as the Darksword while being cheaper, more durable, and having bonus damage against shadows, AND dealing extra damage if worn with the Brightshade Helm. If you outright deleted planar from the game the majority of planar gear would remain better than pre-rifts gear, with the only exceptions being generally worse than existing planar alternatives anyway.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, arubaro said:

And why dst needed better weapons? Adding stuff like morning star, batbat or strident trident is way more interesting that just making a flat weapon with higher numbers

Before we have a nice variety of weapons. Now you simply pick the shadow or moon high durability glass cutter and never think about what to use again

And talking about glass cutters...is hilarious how klei killed it. Making the moon orb a crafting station after defending celestial champion was the only opportunity to use them (and to waste some glass...) but now defeating CC simply makes them pointless . Something similar will happen with the glass axes if people charge mauls and bundle them until needed 

A weapon that gets hungry and needs to eat.. hmmm yeah my ideas aren’t perfect, but if you want to nerf bundling wraps without nerfing bundling wraps… perhaps a semi-demonic flesh eating dark weapon can be smart enough to eat the package you try to bundle it up in??

That solves that problem, NEXT! <3

[Valase]

6 hours ago, arubaro said:

And why dst needed better weapons? Adding stuff like morning star, batbat or strident trident is way more interesting that just making a flat weapon with higher numbers

and none of them are used, even as Wormwood I only use the batbats that I get from the ruins.

6 hours ago, arubaro said:

Before we have a nice variety of weapons.

axe -> tentacle spike -> Hambat -> dark sword. The rest only is used in two or three bosses at most. ( glass cutter for AFW+ shadow trio, Morning star for toadstool + BQ, and it only gets used in toadstool because the boss has one effect specifically made to counter hambat, not that it stopped people).

5 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

But they literally are better. The Brightshade sword does the same damage as the Darksword while being cheaper, more durable, and having bonus damage against shadows, AND dealing extra damage if worn with the Brightshade Helm.

yeah, if they were worse people would not craft them.

 

Also I forgot to put on the og comment, bosses health would have to get massive in order to keep a dark sword as effective against them as they are now.

[grm9]

18 minutes ago, Valase said:

axe -> tentacle spike -> Hambat -> dark sword. The rest only is used in two or three bosses at most. ( glass cutter for AFW+ shadow trio, Morning star for toadstool + BQ, and it only gets used in toadstool because the boss has one effect specifically made to counter hambat, not that it stopped people)

you can use morning star against dfly if you'll water it to make it wet and prevent enraged through sleeping or stunning it before last lavae's death, thule clubs're better in comparison to all other things against stationary stuff except CK, they just need more durability or a 2 living logs requirement instead of 3

18 minutes ago, Valase said:

and none of them are used, even as Wormwood I only use the batbats that I get from the ruins

a lot of people make them when playing as wormwood though

[Echsrick]

what alsol unfair is that the moon side seemingly has better crafts then the shadow side, it dont even help the shadow side if half the time you cant even make the shadow stuff because the rift randomly said "its time for mimics, oh whats that you wanted the cloth from the trio? to bad mimic time" and said mimics do not provide you with the shadow craft materials, so you litteraly cant do contend because of rng and the parralel version of that contend is at all times craftable and has better stuff aswell....

[Oompitie]

I think the purpose of planar damage is to give the player an optional challenge. using non planar weapons and armour on rift enemies will make the fights more challenging, since your doing less damage to the enemies they have more of a chance to defeat the player and can do a lot of damage making the fights more punishing. I don’t think klei are trying to force you to use rift weapons with planar but instead giving you a optional challenge since as seen with the lunar rift bosses you aren’t able to stun them except crystal Deerclops without planar weapons, making fighting them more challenging if your using non planer weapons and armour. For people that don’t want a challenge with fighting and just want to enjoy the rift content there are the planar weapons. The same goes for planar skills in the skill trees where you can choose to use them or not if you want a challenge. I personally don’t want a challenge in fighting but I like how klei are trying to give an optional challenge.

[Cheggf]

It's so that they can sell you more skins for new things since they've arbitrarily made all the previous gear worthless.

[grm9]

9 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

It's so that they can sell you more skins for new things since they've arbitrarily made all the previous gear worthless

there's still no skin for a rifts thing

[Cheggf]

9 hours ago, grm9 said:

there's still no skin for a rifts thing

They forgot to go to step 2 of their master plan

[Maxil20]

On 8/30/2024 at 7:23 PM, grm9 said:

you can use morning star against dfly if you'll water it to make it wet and prevent enraged through sleeping or stunning it before last lavae's death, thule clubs're better in comparison to all other things against stationary stuff except CK, they just need more durability or a 2 living logs requirement instead of 3

My personal problem for these cases is these are fairly inconsistent/difficult to obtain, at least compared to a dark sword/hambat. You either need to prep a star and waterballons for DFly and wait for rain for anything else that isn’t wet inherently, or go to all the way to the ruins to craft a few clubs. The time spent going out of your way to do these things can just be compensated by kiting the boss a few more times than normal with the slightly lower damage weapons, which don’t need to worry about situations to be ideal (other than toad for the hambat) or can just be crafted on the go once prototyped.

Really, the only times I felt incentivized to go out of my way to do things like use situational weapons is if the boss has a gimmick where you are heavily encouraged to kill it faster. Toad/Fuelweaver/Crab King are what I am primarily thinking about as the summoning/minion gimmicks can be mitigated if you are able to speed up the fight by doing more damage, and in those cases I usually opted for the situational weapons to get past the fights.