Feeling tired about ancient fuelweaver

[Reiko24]

7 hours ago, gaymime said:

people with disabilities, people who do not have a strong grip on timing, people with lag issues and people who are less skilled. i am not negating your specific experience i am saying that you, and some of the others in this thread, are not considering that there are people who are not in your same position of ability and skill(and yes, timing is very much a skill and does need to be learned practised and maintained like any other skill). you are not looking at this from the position of someone who is not you and so are not able to recognize any position that is not your position. you are not looking at this as someone who has a different life-experience or bodily capacity than your own and so are not seeing that there are people who are valid for expressing an opinion that deviates form your own lived experience.

then you need to explain to me, in full and complete detail without short-cutting your actual practical definition of what you understand "get better" to mean and the words someone would need to use for it to be understood by you, you also need to explain completely and fully what you consider "getting better". you need to actually explain your position if your position falls outside of the socially agreed-upon definition so that you can defend your position in a manner that is actually understandable to all parties. i am not being cute or glib i am actually legitimately confused why you keep saying that the actual literal words don't mean what those actual literal words mean and why you are saying that people unambiguously saying to get better are not in fact saying get better but instead are suggesting some nebulous other thing that is not clarified or spoken about. i will NOT reply to you again in this or any thread until you make an honest attempt to explain yourself. it is your responsibility to make yourself understood and frankly you are not worth anyone's time if you don't put in the effort to communicate like an actual sentient adult.

noone is saying people haven't suggested other things. multiple things can be true at once; some people can say kill cc and some people can say other things. both options do in fact exist and i made no distinction between the two because my qualifier was people making suggestions that boil down to requiring people to improve their physical skill to complete the task regardless of whether or not there are any other steps involved(such as killing cc). you specifically however have made killing cc part of your argument so it is only correct to have cc be part of the conversation with you specifically.

 

If a person with a disability can't hold F and AFK to kill a boss, they should not be playing. Did you even watch the video he sent? He literally ONLY held F, no dodging, not even MOVING BY HIMSELF. HE WAS PRESSING ONE BUTTON.

[Primalflower]

34 minutes ago, Reiko24 said:

If a person with a disability can't hold F and AFK to kill a boss, they should not be playing. Did you even watch the video he sent? He literally ONLY held F, no dodging, not even MOVING BY HIMSELF. HE WAS PRESSING ONE BUTTON.

I mean, you can believe the boss is easy by this metric if you want, if you do it this specific way with these specific buffs, then yeah, it's a lot easier. just like wigfrid with elding spear on fuelweaver, you get much more wiggle room. but i think it's worth noting that most attacks the celestial champion did were either avoided entirely due to land placement, or dps'd before they could even happen - phase 3 happened right on the border which meant that it couldn't camp sleep crystals as much, and it didnt even get to do the endless gestalts attack once, lol

[Reiko24]

9 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I mean, you can believe the boss is easy by this metric if you want, if you do it this specific way with these specific buffs, then yeah, it's a lot easier. just like wigfrid with elding spear on fuelweaver, you get much more wiggle room. but i think it's worth noting that most attacks the celestial champion did were either avoided entirely due to land placement, or dps'd before they could even happen - phase 3 happened right on the border which meant that it couldn't camp sleep crystals as much, and it didnt even get to do the endless gestalts attack once, lol

I guess so. Then, if someone is disabled and wants to beat CC, I think they should just lower damage taken in the settings of the world. At least for the time of the fight. It's not embarrasing, it's not shaming, those settings were created for people who may have a problem with stuff. So even if you didn't have those buffs, not only would you receive less damage, your armor would receive less damage so it would break slower. You could beat if even when you are not Wolfgang. At least I think.

[grm9]

On 8/8/2024 at 7:40 AM, goblinball said:

If a fight is just not fun for an abnormally large amount of people

(like 10% of people on the forums)

On 8/8/2024 at 7:40 AM, goblinball said:

Healing mechanics in boss fights in general isn’t a good idea imo, nothing is more frustrating than losing minutes of progress just because fuelweaver got to nom on a few woven shadows

what's the difference between killing the player, despawning and making them start the fight again with the boss at full hp if they want to try again and putting the boss back at full hp through healing?

On 8/8/2024 at 8:15 AM, Primalflower said:

Dealing with a spell or Casting a spell both reset the cooldown on both spells he can cast

that'd remove a large part of the fight if both'd get set back at full cd

On 8/8/2024 at 8:15 AM, Primalflower said:

and if he casts a spell, he cant instantly do another one right after the other like it seems like he tends to

???

there's a 20 seconds cd for unseen hands and woven shadows, 15 seconds for mind control and bone cage and 10 seconds for spikes iirc and the last 3 increase each other's cd after they get set on cd to make sure that he won't do bone cage right after mind control or something like that

On 8/8/2024 at 8:15 AM, Primalflower said:

I would also make it so the range at which he can trap you in his bone cage is shorter

most people'd probably not try dodging it any way and that'd remove a large part of the fight

On 8/8/2024 at 8:35 AM, goblinball said:

it’s not just something you’re going to intuitively figure out

a thing getting set at a 20 seconds cd after you deal with it seems simple

On 8/8/2024 at 1:58 AM, gaymime said:

people with disabilities, people who do not have a strong grip on timing, people with lag issues and people who are less skilled. i am not negating your specific experience i am saying that you, and some of the others in this thread, are not considering that there are people who are not in your same position of ability and skill(and yes, timing is very much a skill and does need to be learned practised and maintained like any other skill). you are not looking at this from the position of someone who is not you and so are not able to recognize any position that is not your position. you are not looking at this as someone who has a different life-experience or bodily capacity than your own and so are not seeing that there are people who are valid for expressing an opinion that deviates form your own lived experience

watch the video, literally constantly holding 1 button during 1st 2 phases and starting holding another button or 2 during 3rd phase without tight timing iirc

On 8/8/2024 at 1:58 AM, gaymime said:

then you need to explain to me, in full and complete detail without short-cutting your actual practical definition of what you understand "get better" to mean and the words someone would need to use for it to be understood by you, you also need to explain completely and fully what you consider "getting better". you need to actually explain your position if your position falls outside of the socially agreed-upon definition so that you can defend your position in a manner that is actually understandable to all parties. i am not being cute or glib i am actually legitimately confused why you keep saying that the actual literal words don't mean what those actual literal words mean and why you are saying that people unambiguously saying to get better are not in fact saying get better but instead are suggesting some nebulous other thing that is not clarified or spoken about. i will NOT reply to you again in this or any thread until you make an honest attempt to explain yourself. it is your responsibility to make yourself understood and frankly you are not worth anyone's time if you don't put in the effort to communicate like an actual sentient adult

what was even the point of writing this

idk what to explain, telling someone that playing with a controller makes something harder or not possible to do isn't same in comparison to saying them to get better

On 8/8/2024 at 1:58 AM, gaymime said:

noone is saying people haven't suggested other things. multiple things can be true at once; some people can say kill cc and some people can say other things. both options do in fact exist and i made no distinction between the two because my qualifier was people making suggestions that boil down to requiring people to improve their physical skill to complete the task regardless of whether or not there are any other steps involved(such as killing cc). you specifically however have made killing cc part of your argument so it is only correct to have cc be part of the conversation with you specifically

CC's easier in comparison to FW, it'd literally most likely be easier to kill CC, get a bright shade staff and kill FW with it in comparison to not doing all of this and killing it with weather pains

On 8/8/2024 at 10:09 AM, Primalflower said:

phase 3 happened right on the border which meant that it couldn't camp sleep crystals as much

i did same thing without recording to see how much stuff i'd need with p3 ending up away from ocean and that ended up not changing much

On 8/8/2024 at 10:09 AM, Primalflower said:

it didnt even get to do the endless gestalts attack once

it did, that attack gets stopped after all players in it's range fall asleep

[Primalflower]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

(like 10% of people on the forums)

I don't care to entertain most of your post but i think its worth posting this here again

38% of the population of the uncompromising discord server vouching for a comprehensive rework is not an insignificant amount of people especially considering how the results would be skewed given the audience of the server in question and how severe the question is - more people than you think would like fuelweaver to be changed, at least in minor modification, if not to entirely rework him

it's 2% short of 40%

[grm9]

6 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I don't care to entertain most of your post but i think its worth posting this here again

38% of the population of the uncompromising discord server vouching for a comprehensive rework is not an insignificant amount of people especially considering how the results would be skewed given the audience of the server in question and how severe the question is - more people than you think would like fuelweaver to be changed, at least in minor modification, if not to entirely rework him

it's 2% short of 40%

it's a server of people that unironically thought that meat balls needed a nerf, why'd you care about what most of them think

[Primalflower]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

it's a server of people that unironically thought that meat balls needed a nerf, why'd you care about what most of them think

We can account for biases and still learn things from weighted results

uncompromising mode server due to the nature of the subject matter is inherently going to be a server with a bias towards traditional content (that is to say, content that has been in the game for a long time) and harder content, whether this is in a meaningful fashion or no - so the fact that the percentage of people who said yes to this question was this high even with these negative biases in place (it would be removing old content and replacing it with something very likely easier) says something about how many people actually want fuelweaver changed, that is to say the number is probably even higher in a casual setting

that being said even still without thinking this through like that 38% is still a very high margin of people who want fuelweaver changed, lol

[grm9]

43 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

We can account for biases and still learn things from weighted results

uncompromising mode server due to the nature of the subject matter is inherently going to be a server with a bias towards traditional content (that is to say, content that has been in the game for a long time) and harder content, whether this is in a meaningful fashion or no - so the fact that the percentage of people who said yes to this question was this high even with these negative biases in place (it would be removing old content and replacing it with something very likely easier) says something about how many people actually want fuelweaver changed, that is to say the number is probably even higher in a casual setting

that being said even still without thinking this through like that 38% is still a very high margin of people who want fuelweaver changed, lol

the point was that most people there seem to be bad at the game considering that they thought that meat balls were good so it makes sense that they don't like hard bosses, there could've also been confusion about the authors of the mod changing FW somehow since they also made their own AG and CK reworks

[Gashzer]

34 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

We can account for biases and still learn things from weighted results

uncompromising mode server due to the nature of the subject matter is inherently going to be a server with a bias towards traditional content (that is to say, content that has been in the game for a long time) and harder content, whether this is in a meaningful fashion or no - so the fact that the percentage of people who said yes to this question was this high even with these negative biases in place (it would be removing old content and replacing it with something very likely easier) says something about how many people actually want fuelweaver changed, that is to say the number is probably even higher in a casual setting

that being said even still without thinking this through like that 38% is still a very high margin of people who want fuelweaver changed, lol

And people who go out of their way to be apart of DST discords or this forum are naturally going to be more experienced players.

So if 40% of klei forums users want AFW tweaked and 40% of uncompromising discord users want a rework. We can infer there is going to be a much much larger group of people who do not have a voice on public forums but will benefit from the entirety of the AFW questline including AFW himself getting QOL reworks.

Its really a no brainer for klei at this point.

Last night I joined a server on Nintendo switch which the description was a dude begging for help in killing CC and AFW to unlock the affinities. Unfortunately I couldn't play with him long enough to help him out. 

[grm9]

Just now, Gashzer said:

So if 40% of klei forums users want AFW tweaked

read as "some people wanted less healing from woven shadows because too hard"

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

40% of uncompromising discord users want a rework

there're 2870 members in the server and 50 votes in the poll, so you don't know, there's also that those people unironically think that meat balls're good and some of them simply don't like optional bosses, could've also been confusion about the devs of the mod changing the boss somehow since they also made their own AG and CK reworks

6 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Its really a no brainer for klei at this point

no, disappointing around 85% of people isn't a good idea

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

And people who go out of their way to be apart of DST discords or this forum are naturally going to be more experienced players

no

[Gashzer]

24 minutes ago, grm9 said:

no, disappointing around 85% of people isn't a good idea

Disappointing 8.5 people is a great idea for Klei

[Mr Giggio]

Uncomp is a mod that turn a lot of bosses and mechanics way more harder than in regular game it's just how convenient it is for me u getting statistics from there when it validates a point but the whole jazz about the channel is ignored. 

[arubaro]

5 hours ago, Primalflower said:

if you do it this specific way with these specific buffs, then yeah, it's a lot easier.

Then why is needed to reduce the difficulty beyond that? As we repeated until boredoom,  there are maaaany ways to reduce the difficulty..

4 hours ago, Primalflower said:

I don't care to entertain most of your post but i think its worth posting this here again

38% of the population of the uncompromising discord server vouching for a comprehensive rework is not an insignificant amount of people especially considering how the results would be skewed given the audience of the server in question and how severe the question is - more people than you think would like fuelweaver to be changed, at least in minor modification, if not to entirely rework him

it's 2% short of 40%

Maybe they want it to be even harder so isnt a treeguard with extra mechanics 

Shall klei rework every initial boss with their vision and nerf every food to rise the difficulty or that opinions arent convient?

[Guille6785]

7 hours ago, Primalflower said:

I don't care to entertain most of your post but i think its worth posting this here again

38% of the population of the uncompromising discord server vouching for a comprehensive rework is not an insignificant amount of people especially considering how the results would be skewed given the audience of the server in question and how severe the question is - more people than you think would like fuelweaver to be changed, at least in minor modification, if not to entirely rework him

it's 2% short of 40%

??? this is in the context of a mod that overhauls the entire game, how are you certain that everybody who voted for a FW rework in the context of the mod also wants a FW rework outside of it

[Primalflower]

1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

??? this is in the context of a mod that overhauls the entire game, how are you certain that everybody who voted for a FW rework in the context of the mod also wants a FW rework outside of it

Its a poll for the vanilla game

[Theukon-dos]

34 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

Its a poll for the vanilla game

Uncompromising Mode reworks several of the game's bosses already. In fact, the two listed there where reworked by them well before Klei got around to it.

[Primalflower]

27 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Uncompromising Mode reworks several of the game's bosses already. In fact, the two listed there where reworked by them well before Klei got around to it.

its a poll for the vanilla game

it was like an opinions thing because crab king rework just came out

i dont think this is the angle of attack you guys want for this poll lol

[goblinball]

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

In fact, the two listed there where reworked by them well before Klei got around to it.

Why would they list the only 2 bosses that klei reworked and not the countless other bosses the uncompromising mode devs also reworked then? It’s very obvious this poll was aimed towards vanilla discussion man you’re just being silly and pedantic

 

12 hours ago, grm9 said:

what's the difference between killing the player, despawning and making them start the fight again with the boss at full hp if they want to try again and putting the boss back at full hp through healing?

The difference is quite massive, I’m shocked I need to explain this. A boss despawns and heals back to full only after you’ve lost the fight. It only undos your progress once you’ve made too many mistakes. Healing undos your progress mid-fight, which is not very fun to deal with, and needlessly punishing. 

If I die to a boss and they respawn with full health, it’s ok because I know I still made progress because I learned the fight more. It’s almost like a sorta meta progression between boss attempts. Every attempt I get better at the fight.

Boss healing just throws this out the window. I’m not making progress when a boss heals themsleves. In fact I’m LOSING progress because all of the resources I used to whittle down the boss’s hp were effectively wasted. It’s just not fun.

Boss healing also just really, really slows down the pace of boss fights. With fw especially the fight can stretch way longer than it should if he gets even the tiniest bit of healing in. It turns the fight into a slog.

[grm9]

2 hours ago, goblinball said:

which is not very fun to deal with

subjective

2 hours ago, goblinball said:

needlessly punishing

that's pretty much the only way to punish the player without allowing them to ignore the punishment through armor and healing except instantly killing them, despawning the boss or making it take less damage but FW already has invincibility and instantly killing or despawning'd be a bigger punishment in comparison to that

2 hours ago, goblinball said:

Boss healing just throws this out the window. I’m not making progress when a boss heals themsleves

???

you still learned as much or even more from doing the fight as if you'd've died instead of the boss healing

2 hours ago, goblinball said:

In fact I’m LOSING progress because all of the resources I used to whittle down the boss’s hp were effectively wasted

same applies to dying

2 hours ago, goblinball said:

Boss healing also just really, really slows down the pace of boss fights

no difference in comparison to making you do the fight again after you die

2 hours ago, goblinball said:

With fw especially the fight can stretch way longer than it should if he gets even the tiniest bit of healing in. It turns the fight into a slog

every woven shadow that'll get eaten'll require you to hold F for around 2.802 more seconds on FW so ???

[lowercase skye]

20 minutes ago, grm9 said:

subjective

We're talking about fun in a video game, practically everything said is going to be subjective just inherently.

[gaymime]

19 hours ago, arubaro said:

Difficulty settings can be added but if every dev should consider every small portion of problems of every potential player... i think is kind of unrealistic.

 

Idk why you dont see as a valid point to improve. Fw is one of the few bosses that requires pressing more than one buttom, clearly if someone cant beat him is because needs more practise and skill or will you go to Nintendo's forums or whatever they have to complain about how difficult is certain level of supermario because you are bad at platform games or should they release super mario games for people who enjoy platform games? Isnt like killing fw is unrealistic but maybe the player base is very used to just hold F with a wooden armor and a hambat...

Do people actually play other games? Because dst is one of the games that requires less skill and to press less keys quickly...

improvement is legitimate it just should not be the sole singular answer for every single player in a game that is structured in a way that encourages multiple solutions to any given problem. also, nintendo regularly includes options for people who are not able to play their games without help. you can open most mario games from the last decade and enable options to make the game easier to play. nintendo is so well known for this that there have been quite a few people complaining that they can't enjoy the games because it hurts them to think of people who aren't as good as them being able to also play these games. as an example mariocart 8 literally has an option for smart-steering and auto accelerate. so, nintendo does both and they are wildly successful all the same.

 

[Guille6785]

22 hours ago, Primalflower said:

its a poll for the vanilla game

it was like an opinions thing because crab king rework just came out

i dont think this is the angle of attack you guys want for this poll lol

maybe I'm missing something because I literally just checked the discussion of the poll and nobody said this was for the vanilla game, most people I saw were explicitly discussing it within the context of a rework in the mod

[Primalflower]

1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

maybe I'm missing something because I literally just checked the discussion of the poll and nobody said this was for the vanilla game, most people I saw were explicitly discussing it within the context of a rework in the mod

discussion probably revolved around uncompromising mode because fundamentally, the idea that you can have and execute yourself is more tangible and easier to discuss, but the poll in question was pretty clearly referring to reworks as klei does them and thereby relevant to the vanilla game, the poll was in the channel for just community thoughts and opinions, a few polls up from this one theres just a question about which pikmin game you liked the most, so i don't think polls here inherently revolve around uncomp only unless, well, it refers to content in uncomp only. polls in the "mod polls" channel are going to be a lot stricter for that

In either case, the crux of discussion these past few pages of this thread is a bit crazy to me though just because like the point i wanted to make in sharing this poll is just that wanting fuelweaver to be reworked or changed significantly isn't an opinion held by like 2 people ever, theres a sizeable portion of the community that would like it for one reason or another - and to that end I feel like the fact that theres like 4 or 5 posters in this thread + a ppl who haven't posted in the thread liking my posts proves in of itself that this crowd isn't exactly ethereal, some people definitely want this and i feel like this poll lines up with that perfectly well, even if i hypothetically got it wrong

[kroban]

On 8/2/2024 at 2:08 PM, grm9 said:

nah, it's really easy with stuff like bright shade staff or weather pains, nightmare amulet, BQ crown and lazy explorer

No its not lmao. I have like 4k hours in DST and Fuelweaver specifically has always been an issue to me, I even learnt to solo Misery with just a hambat and a torch, yet im still having a hard time each time I want to solo Fuelweaver even if I do know every single thing that would make the fight easier (like using lamps to negate cage etc).

And coincidentally, this last run on the server I play, I decided to learn to solo Fuelweaver in "the cheapest way possible" like if it were the first time and with no cheese, like Winona mode, using catapults rather than weather pain and farming BQ and Pieces with catapults to stack easy armor. Gave it like 20 tries already and even tho I can now solo him its still insane how hard the fight feels, legit harder than killing post-rift bosses.

The fight is a huge pain in the ass when it comes to inventory management, having to change lots of items mid fight is insane for a boss that has only 15-20 seconds cooldown on each mechanic. Thats why it exists the "immunity locked" issue that lots of players constantly talk about when it comes to this fight.

Nightmare amulet, the "main" item of this fight, ******* sucks, you wear it half a second and you have nightmares joining the fight and doing free hits on you.

Brightshade staff? You do know that not all servers activate rift day 1, no? Like yeah sure, that staff makes the whole fight way easier, but its not like you can get one first year in servers where everyone set a specific "late game day" to activate rifts. Saying "just use staff bro" is a lame argument when its an end-game, hardmode locked item.

Weather pains? So, having to farm a seasonal boss 2 times for each time you want to reset ruins is somewhat "fun" I guess? Because in best case scenario you will only waste like half a weather pain, but thats not the norm for most players. I have had tries where im wasting 2, 3 entire weather pains, and again, im not some "where base" Wilson with 2 hours played.

And this is something you have to repeat each time you want to reset ruins. Unless Klei decides to separate the mechanic from Fuelweaver (in which case I wouldnt have a problem with FW staying this hard to solo) having this mechanic locked on the hardest boss in the game is dumb.

 

 

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, kroban said:

The fight is a huge pain in the ass when it comes to inventory management

you literally only need 3 items in hand slot, 2 in body and 1 in head if you're using weather pains or bright shade staff for AoE or 2 in hand slot if you aren't, you can also do FW without swapping items

6 minutes ago, kroban said:

legit harder than killing post-rift bosses

because they're easy?

6 minutes ago, kroban said:

its not like you can get one first year in servers where everyone set a specific "late game day" to activate rifts

that's an issue with people, not the game

7 minutes ago, kroban said:

Weather pains? So, having to farm a boss 2 times for each time you want to reset ruins is somewhat "good design"? Because in best case scenario you will only waste like half a weather pain, but thats not the norm for most players

you only need to do that if you're too bad to kill it without AoE and don't want to swap to worm wood, winona or willow

8 minutes ago, kroban said:

Saying "just use staff bro" is a lame argument when its an end-game, hardmode locked item

it isn't, it makes sense that you need to spend more time on getting preparation for killing a boss easily in comparison to killing it when using a harder and more efficient strat

9 minutes ago, kroban said:

And this is something you have to repeat each time you want to reset ruins

https://youtu.be/k08E_IsddU8

is doing that an issue?

11 minutes ago, kroban said:

"the cheapest way possible"

it isn't, you can do the fight with only shadow pieces loot and a foot ball helm, that requires RNG but you can get 2 green shrooms, a magi and 7 cooked green shrooms or cactii to reduce it and around 5 more cooked green shrooms or cactii to practically remove it