Feeling tired about ancient fuelweaver

[Lardee]

On 8/2/2024 at 5:07 AM, Trashtoptrash said:

I usually don’t try to share my thoughts in this kind of thread but after days of despair against this boss i really have to spin up my mind to the design of dst for solo play. Sure there are so many hardcore players who feel joy in the most challenging fights but as a mid skilled player I simply can’t hold on. What’s literally the point of the mechanic in this boss fight? Sure I could skip him but as a Maxwell main I really want the gear set but simply get punished for being a normal player on console. I think the ancient fuelweaver needs to get a rework because the healing in the combination with the stun and bone cage (especially in this high frequency and the terrible auto aiming on console so the little shadows can easily bypass the player) feels like not well designed concepts. I am like 500 days in and did many bosses and had a fun time. But the last days was all about starting over and over again the same fight without any effort, healing, armor sanity food, bee queen helm, nightmare necklace and my duelist with tier 2 gear are simply running against a never breaking wall because no matter how good the fight feels in the first 2 minutes, this guy is devastating through.
I don’t know If I’m the only one who feel like that disappointment, but I guess for me the fun runs out and I don’t want to waste any more time. It feels so unfair to invest so much time in a preparation for the fight and don’t can fight the boss effective and regular. So yeah I hope there will be some support for more players like me, because I left over dst for a while because I don’t see motivation after this experience. That’s all I want to say. Don’t mind if this isn’t the thread that overhyping all skill based ideas in this fight. I think the truth is, that the community shouldn’t be build up of only high skilled pro gamers but bosses like this one are pushing it to far in this requirement.

What are you thinking about this opinion of a player who lost the interest in continuing this torture?

The Fuelweaver is perfectly fine as is considering it's one of the final bosses and therefore should be very difficult.

If you don't want to take the time to develop the skills to beat it the "normal" way with Lazy Explorers and Weather Pains, you can make the fight WAY easier by swapping to Winona and building catapults in the three corners. Doing this basically removes the boss's healing ability meaning you don't have to even worry about Weather Pains.

If you still find the fight difficult with catapults, you can swap to Wigfrid and fight FW after you get her songs and Elding Spear since the spear lets you get out of the cages for free and you probably won't even need healing and sanity food if you use Wigfrid's songs.

 

I think the most important tip I can give you is that instead of learning how to fight Fuelweaver in an actual game, you should start a practice world where you can spawn items in with console commands and retry the fight with rollbacks.  This way 100% of your time will be spent learning the fight instead of wasting hours on prep.

[W0l0l0]

With the Fuelweaver, inventory management and targeting really annoy me, but it's more of a general issue than a Fuelweaver specific one. I'd also be alright with more ways to avoid the bone cage, but I do feel the fight is satisfyingly hard.

I had to make a practice world and give it a few goes to get the hang of it, but it's worth it. I suggest others do the same. I sometimes have to rollback on my worlds but I'm alright with it.

If things go south, spamming weather pains is usually a safe bet, can stun the Fuelweaver if they have the shield up, and clears the woven shadows.

And if thats not enough, I'm convinced the Celestial Champion is tankable with a decent amount of armour for that sword.

My advice is to practice, bring extra weather pains, and don't be afraid to rollback.

[cropo]

8 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Its ok man, he hates it because it's an idea that gives us and them what they want. And he can't handle both sides winning lol

Not a fan of the shackle idea because it's a single-purpose item specifically designed to limit a specific bosses moveset being introduced into the game. As a new player, how do you interpret that? Is it intended to find the item and use it? Is fighting Fuelweaver as is the ''Wrong'' way to do it because there's now an item to get to make him easier?

It's just wrong on a lot of levels and it's actually a little intrusive. A toggleable setting in the world menu would literally be a better option, because it conveys to the player that they are choosing to pick the unintended way to experience the fight, and they are making the conscious decision to fight it that way.

All of the bosses with a "different" form are considered "failures". When Klaus gets enraged, it's not an optional boss battle but a fail-condition on the intended way to fight him.  When Dragonfly Enrages, it's a fail-condition that you didn't prevent. The only exception is Crab King and that's because CK's entire gimmick is to have a customizable fight.

Whenever I argue for the "it doesn't affect you" argument it's always in cases where it's absolutely clear that what is being done is a glitch or cheese that the player has to go out of their way to do, or is so inconsequential and more of a decoration feature for megabasers that it's a legitimate argument. But adding a literal item to the game progression that nerfs a boss is incredibly weird and unfitting for the game.

[Gashzer]

4 hours ago, arubaro said:

You didn't get the point

And dont worry,  you cant make fun of me with that avatar or your attitude towards a challenge in a videogame 

Both sides "winning" could be a setting but your idea isnt only really uninspired,  balance breaking and forced. Is like the idea of a 12 years old kid

Imagine thinking than adding an item which only purpose is to ruin a fight by farming is a good idea and be proud of it in every topic

Maybe you arent a troll after all

A setting is the worst solution to the problem. The solution should be accessible on public servers without relying on checking the world gen settings to see if the admin has turned it on or not.

The fight isn't ruined, it would be an optional item. 

You are acting immature here with this level of aggression. Might want to try some anger management lad.

Clearly lots of people have issues with AFW atleast some of us are trying to come up with ideas that meet in the middle so everyone is happy.

Otherwise let's get AFW nerfed into oblivion, no item, no compromise. AFW is in a dire need of a rework, even more than old crab king because it's a much much messier fight and just isn't fun whatever way you approach it:

• Doing grm9 strat of walking ancient fuel weaver around the arena to avoid shadow wovens like some sort of dog, isn't fun.
• Timing to dodge bone cage, isn't fun
• Using weatherpains and that level of item juggling isn't fun... especially on consoles
• Needing to time killing the last shadow woven with the last unseen hand or else the fight gets insanely messy, isn't fun.
• Doing the entire CC questline, killing CC, waiting for rifts to open then finally getting a nice item to kill AFW with, isn't fun. Being shoehorned into getting a brightside staff is not the right solution.
• Character swapping, isn't fun

So you don't get it. I can do all these strategies and kill AFW, the people that are complaining to change AFW can kill him in one way or another. Killing him is not the problem, the problem is he just isn't a fun boss to fight or refight.

[SilverSpoon]

When people argue against nerf Ancient Fuelweaver, Not explain the amusement and fairness of the current Ancient Fuelweaver, but instead use the good old "git gut" "skill issue" strategy, which is proof that the current Ancient Fuelweaver isn't a good boss.

[grm9]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Doing grm9 strat of walking ancient fuel weaver around the arena to avoid shadow wovens like some sort of dog, isn't fun.

• Timing to dodge bone cage, isn't fun
• Using weatherpains and that level of item juggling isn't fun... especially on consoles
• Needing to time killing the last shadow woven with the last unseen hand or else the fight gets insanely messy, isn't fun.
• Doing the entire CC questline, killing CC, waiting for rifts to open then finally getting a nice item to kill AFW with, isn't fun. Being shoehorned into getting a brightside staff is not the right solution

"everything isn't fun for no reason and with no explanation and even though the boss isn't hard according to me since i said that i and other people can do the hardest strat, it needs to get nerfed any way because ???"

why do you pretend that your opinions're objective, assuming that you even got opinions and didn't just make stuff up about half of the strats that you mentioned to complain?

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Clearly lots of people have issues with AFW

90% of people don't want it to get reworked on the forums and you didn't show any statistics about people that don't use the forums

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

I can do all these strategies and kill AFW

in that case do FW without teleportation, nightmare amulet, brightshade staff and AoE when playing as walter on a console since iirc you said that you play on 1 of them, just to make sure that you didn't make stuff up about not liking strats that you can't do to complain

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

he just isn't a fun boss to fight or refight

why am i getting fun from fighting him then

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

explain the amusement and fairness of the current Ancient Fuelweaver

how? what needs to get explained specifically and what's the point of explaining considering that most people's complaints boil down to "too hard"?

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

which is proof that the current Ancient Fuelweaver isn't a good boss

most of them'd say same thing as a response to people wanting to nerf a boss because of it being too hard, would all bosses that people'd want to nerf because of thinking that they're too hard automatically become bad because of them saying that in that case?

[Cruvimaster]

Someone created an account just to create this thread. I wouldn't even be surprised if it was just an old forum account posing as a new person to resurrect this kind of topic.

23 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

When people argue against nerf Ancient Fuelweaver, Not explain the amusement and fairness of the current Ancient Fuelweaver, but instead use the good old "git gut" "skill issue" strategy, which is proof that the current Ancient Fuelweaver isn't a good boss.

If almost the entire community (90%) is against the rework. 

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

When people argue against nerf Ancient Fuelweaver, Not explain the amusement and fairness of the current Ancient Fuelweaver, but instead use the good old "git gut" "skill issue" strategy, which is proof that the current Ancient Fuelweaver isn't a good boss.

Show me someone who said git gut (sic) or skill issue. 

[Ridley]

This boss is one of my top three favorite DST bosses and I think some changes are warranted. This thread is a bit too hot for me to want to wade any deeper into the conversation.

[gaymime]

8 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Show me someone who said git gut (sic) or skill issue. 

posts in this very thread that say the solution was to get better at the game, already be good at the game or that a lack of skill is the sole reason for not liking the fight with the solution being to just be better at the game(not all are mean/inflammatory but many are. take from that what you will);

 

[Cheggf]

Just now, gaymime said:

posts in this very thread that say the solution was to get better at the game, already be good at the game or that a lack of skill is the sole reason for not liking the fight with the solution being to just be better at the game(not all are mean/inflammatory but many are. take from that what you will);

If you interpret someone giving advice and being helpful as them saying "skill issue" then I'm not surprised you're so hostile. 

[gaymime]

4 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

If you interpret someone giving advice and being helpful as them saying "skill issue" then I'm not surprised you're so hostile. 

not hostile; just answered your question with actual posts using the actual words you demanded to see within the exact context of this particular topic. it only reads as hostile to you because you were not actually looking for someone to answer your question in good faith but were trying to keep the embers of the fighting from going out by baiting people into arguing with you. this is a forum not a phone call. anyone can go back and read what was written at any time. you won't get that far pretending that "out of sight out of mind" also works in plain sight while it is still on people's minds.

 

also, i do feel a bit spicy so here is my no-so-hot-take of the day; recontextualizing statements like "just don't fight him until you're good enough to fight him." as helpful to anyone and not to be read as "get good" is intellectually dishonest. i have seen you make good and compelling arguments on this forum, i have seen you say things that were amenable and done in good faith. please don't let yourself continue to stoop to the tactics of a pillock when you have proven yourself capable of integrity at other times.

 

[grm9]

41 minutes ago, gaymime said:

posts in this very thread that say the solution was to get better at the game, already be good at the game or that a lack of skill is the sole reason for not liking the fight with the solution being to just be better at the game(not all are mean/inflammatory but many are. take from that what you will);

 

most of those're suggestions to use easier strats, not get better at using the strat that they're currently using or a harder strat, you also linked a message about controllers being bad instead of the player so ???

[SilentConstruct]

Fuelweaver is fine as is, he is quite literally the only boss in the game I actually enjoy fighting, he is significantly more engaging then many of the other fights in this game in a way that is actually fun to me. There is a variety of options nowadays with which to approach him, many of which have already been mentioned in other replies.

As much as people utterly despise this idea, I believe the only solution here is an optional world setting to adjust his difficulty, with the current fight remaining as the default. The world settings exist for a reason, to customize the game to your liking. There really is no shame in tweaking something you don't like, if only Klei had provided the option to do so for bosses when they expanded upon those menus back in 2021. This way both those who love the current fight such as myself, and those who want an easier experience may both be satisfied. 

Outside of world settings, I am willing to concede that the drop rate of volt goat horns could use a buff. Otherwise, Fuelweaver is already a perfect fight in my eyes, a very fitting finale for what was once the game's final boss.

[gaymime]

On 8/5/2024 at 11:38 PM, grm9 said:

most of those're suggestions to use easier strats, not get better at using the strat that they're currently using or a harder strat, you also linked a message about controllers being bad instead of the player so ???

the controller one specifically said that the poster was using it as an excuse with the implication being that if they were not struggling with the fight because the fight is a problem for them but because they were using a controller and their complaint was not valid because of it

 

also they are only "easier" in that people who already do not struggle with fuel weaver and so do not struggle with celestial champion have access to celestial champion kit. it is not actually "easier" for someone who is already struggling with that tier of boss(aka the op and some of the people in the thread who don't enjoy or do struggle with fw). if the suggestions can only be borne out directly and explicitly by being better at the game than the person receiving the suggestions already is then the suggestions boil down to "get good". it does not matter if the person giving the suggestion is already good enough that the suggestions are easily achievable to them personally the suggestions are still hinged entirely and without exception on the person receiving them just being a better player than they currently are.

[grm9]

11 minutes ago, gaymime said:

also they are only "easier" in that people who already do not struggle with fuel weaver and so do not struggle with celestial champion have access to celestial champion kit. it is not actually "easier" for someone who is already struggling with that tier of boss

no, i've literally sent you a video of killing CC through simply holding F and walking to it after it got out of F attack range, how can that be hard for any one? i was literally holding 1 button during the entirety of 1st 2 phases

11 minutes ago, gaymime said:

the controller one specifically said that the poster was using it as an excuse with the implication being that if they were not struggling with the fight because the fight is a problem for them but because they were using a controller and their complaint was not valid because of it

that's not even similar in comparison to saying someone to get better at the game

11 minutes ago, gaymime said:

also they are only "easier" in that people who already do not struggle with fuel weaver and so do not struggle with celestial champion have access to celestial champion kit

some people suggested doing things that don't require killing CC

[gaymime]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

no, i've literally sent you a video of killing CC through simply holding F and walking to it after it got out of F attack range, how can that be hard for any one? i was literally only holding 1 button during 1st 2 phases

that's not even similar in comparison to saying someone to get better at the game

some people suggested doing things that don't require killing CC

people with disabilities, people who do not have a strong grip on timing, people with lag issues and people who are less skilled. i am not negating your specific experience i am saying that you, and some of the others in this thread, are not considering that there are people who are not in your same position of ability and skill(and yes, timing is very much a skill and does need to be learned practised and maintained like any other skill). you are not looking at this from the position of someone who is not you and so are not able to recognize any position that is not your position. you are not looking at this as someone who has a different life-experience or bodily capacity than your own and so are not seeing that there are people who are valid for expressing an opinion that deviates form your own lived experience.

then you need to explain to me, in full and complete detail without short-cutting your actual practical definition of what you understand "get better" to mean and the words someone would need to use for it to be understood by you, you also need to explain completely and fully what you consider "getting better". you need to actually explain your position if your position falls outside of the socially agreed-upon definition so that you can defend your position in a manner that is actually understandable to all parties. i am not being cute or glib i am actually legitimately confused why you keep saying that the actual literal words don't mean what those actual literal words mean and why you are saying that people unambiguously saying to get better are not in fact saying get better but instead are suggesting some nebulous other thing that is not clarified or spoken about. i will NOT reply to you again in this or any thread until you make an honest attempt to explain yourself. it is your responsibility to make yourself understood and frankly you are not worth anyone's time if you don't put in the effort to communicate like an actual sentient adult.

noone is saying people haven't suggested other things. multiple things can be true at once; some people can say kill cc and some people can say other things. both options do in fact exist and i made no distinction between the two because my qualifier was people making suggestions that boil down to requiring people to improve their physical skill to complete the task regardless of whether or not there are any other steps involved(such as killing cc). you specifically however have made killing cc part of your argument so it is only correct to have cc be part of the conversation with you specifically.

 

[Popian]

On 8/2/2024 at 8:51 PM, gaymime said:

with the evidence we have right now op still can't reasonably beat celestial champion at this time in a solo world.

Just wanted to clear up that the OP has only made 1 post and does not mention CC or being unable to beat it, so recommending CC first to get gear that can potentially help with FW is a reasonable thing to do.

[gaymime]

6 minutes ago, Popian said:

Just wanted to clear up that the OP has only made 1 post and does not mention CC or being unable to beat it, so recommending CC first to get gear that can potentially help with FW is a reasonable thing to do.

you know, that is fair. i based my assumption on the comments they liked and not on a written declaration by them of their ability. cc being generally an unreasonable ask is not the same as distinctly being unreasonable for this specific poster.

[Mr Giggio]

On 8/2/2024 at 12:07 PM, Trashtoptrash said:

What are you thinking about this opinion of a player who lost the interest in continuing this torture?

if u did celestial champion just equip nightmare amulet and brightshade staff the whole thing 

If u did not, bring 4 weather pains. Keep in mind a regular player would need just one. use it when woven phase starts so u garante he not healing

AT ALL, WHATSOEVER, UR MAIN PRIORITY IS NOT ALLOWING HIM TO HEAL. its not about the damage u do, is about not allowing him to recover. Getting this tempo u have the fight in u favor whatever u do in the other parts.

On 8/3/2024 at 1:37 PM, DegenerateFurry said:

You understand this game far better than all the insecure people telling everyone "git gud"

I called you out in the other post just to make a point here. No reason to get mad and insult. No reason to invalidate people that are actually saying practice wont hurt. Sore looser energy dont make u better at anything. But u rather think nerfing high level bosses is better than give players that r putting effort to overcome it, the word.

You are really being a Degenerate Furry.

On 8/2/2024 at 6:15 PM, finn from human said:

If you're ok with swapping characters at the portal, I'd recommend playing Wigfrid with her elding spear. It lets you teleport out of the bone cage for free, and her battle songs means less time spent thinking about stat management and more time taking care of woven shadows. Fuelweaver is a boss I've never been able to have fun with over years and years of fights, but just switching to Wigfrid makes it go way smoother.

Actually a good advice. Smart making it simplier. Shes a machine in that fight. Thank you.

On 8/3/2024 at 10:21 AM, grm9 said:

 

YOU LITERALLY DID JUST HOLD F? LMAOOOOOOOO

[goblinball]

I know ppl on the forums absolutely adore saying “git gud” but unfair difficulty spikes are a real thing and are, in fact, bad game design! If a fight is just not fun for an abnormally large amount of people then I feel like the problem is more than just them being bad at the game (or not wanting to spend countless hours doing cc first). 
 

I think the big problem here is probably just his healing. Healing mechanics in boss fights in general isn’t a good idea imo, nothing is more frustrating than losing minutes of progress just because fuelweaver got to nom on a few woven shadows. If you’re not a god gamer (especially if you’re solo) the fight is basically just a Sisyphus simulator, except instead of rolling a boulder you’re juggling your inventory around while dealing with your sanity and fuelweaver’s attacks (or in other words, doing stuff infinitely more stressful and complicated than rolling a boulder). Just because it’s possible to beat if you “git gud” enough doesn’t mean it’s a fun fight for these people.

And no, brightshade staff is not a good enough solution. Imagine making it all the way to fw only to be told that in order to stand a chance against him you have to do the cc questline which will take hours of your time just so you can get 1 item. Yeah, no thanks. (And no, I don’t want to enable rifts through world settings).

[DegenerateFurry]

3 hours ago, Mr Giggio said:

[Angry drivel]

You are really being a Degenerate Furry.

Hey now, I go after you people for what you say and how you act, not how you identify. 

[arubaro]

6 hours ago, gaymime said:

people with disabilities, people who do not have a strong grip on timing, people with lag issues and people who are less skilled. i am not negating your specific experience i am saying that you, and some of the others in this thread, are not considering that there are people who are not in your same position of ability and skill

Difficulty settings can be added but if every dev should consider every small portion of problems of every potential player... i think is kind of unrealistic.

 

Idk why you dont see as a valid point to improve. Fw is one of the few bosses that requires pressing more than one buttom, clearly if someone cant beat him is because needs more practise and skill or will you go to Nintendo's forums or whatever they have to complain about how difficult is certain level of supermario because you are bad at platform games or should they release super mario games for people who enjoy platform games? Isnt like killing fw is unrealistic but maybe the player base is very used to just hold F with a wooden armor and a hambat...

Do people actually play other games? Because dst is one of the games that requires less skill and to press less keys quickly...

[Primalflower]

1 hour ago, goblinball said:

And no, brightshade staff is not a good enough solution.

my problem with the brightshade staff is just that it's really easy to make the fight instantly 10x harder with it. The brightshade staff is so good at killing woven shadows and unseen hands that it will do so in such a way that desyncs the two spells. As such, it's super easy to get into a terrible loop with the brightshade staff where the fuelweaver casts a spell directly after you're done dealing with one, and this gives you very, very, very little chance to attack in combination with bone cages.

If I were to improve the fight in the modern day without overhauling it/adding any super new mechanics, speaking as a bit of a fuelweaver hater, I would make it so 1.Dealing with a spell or Casting a spell both reset the cooldown on both spells he can cast. So like, for example, if you deal with his Unseen hands super quickly, he cannot instantly respond with woven shadows, and if he casts a spell, he cant instantly do another one right after the other like it seems like he tends to. The latter may already be a mechanic but hopefully you see what i'm getting at. 2. I would also make it so the range at which he can trap you in his bone cage is shorter. It doesn't have to be a visible range even if I would like it to, but I think having to be like across the arena really shines a light on how unintended dodging the bone cage like that is.

These two changes might remove some of the emergent nuance of the fight, but f**k dude, give me a break, you get me? its been 8k hours of DST gaming, and keeping track of several invisible timers and radiuses in a fight where all of my equipment is basically constantly degrading no matter what and I have to make sure everythings on the left of my inventory, still isn't all that fun, Idk if it's gonna get fun soon. The catharsis of beating him isn't really enough to offset all of that. I beg to make it :pinching hand emote: a little simpler

[goblinball]

21 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

overhauling it/adding any super new mechanics, speaking as a bit of a fuelweaver hater, I would make it so 1.Dealing with a spell or Casting a spell both reset the cooldown on both spells he can case. So like, for example, if you deal with his Unseen hands super quickly, he cannot instantly respond with woven shadows, and if he casts a spell, he cant instantly do another one right after the other like it seems like he tends to.

Absolutely this would be a great change. 
I love the idea of having to manage the unseen hands and woven shadows such that you take them both out at the same time on paper. However in execution I don’t think it really works here. The game tells you NOTHING about how these work and how if you don’t take them out at the same time you’re basically never going to be able to hit him, and it’s not just something you’re going to intuitively figure out. Punishing a player this severely for them not knowing a mechanic they can’t learn without outside help is just silly.