Cold was never a challenge (after 100 cycles)

[evilcat19xx]

Any new content for ONI is appreciated, and I'm glad we can support the developers in their efforts. Some of the new creatures look great: Bammoth is cute, Alveo Vera and Bonbon trees are appealing, and Wood heaters give a cozy feeling (Floxes designs are okay but not as impressive as the others). This DLC feels more like a content pack since it does not introduce any new mechanics like Spaced Out did (e.g., space, nuclear, mutations). Here are my thoughts after 100 cycles:

Coldness Management:

• Coldness is not a significant challenge. One or two heaters are sufficient to manage the cold.
• By cycle 25 the colony becomes semi-stable due to oxygen production from Aloe Vera and food from Pikeapples.
• By Cycle 80-100, space exposure allows for free (unlimited) power generation with solar panels, which in turn supports space heaters. Maybe it would be better to make the light dim or almost nonexistent in this planetoid and the nearby planetoid.
• After that, coldness is even helpful since everything generates heat and we need them cold, like the glass forge and metal refinery.
• Heat and coldness do not become integral to the gameplay as hoped.
• The changes mainly affect the early game (first 50-100 cycles), after which the game feels similar to previous versions.
• The presence of saltwater geysers generating water at 95 degrees negates the challenge of coldness. Let's remove them.

Lack of Gameplay Changes:

• The main challenges in ONI are managing oxygen, water, and power:
  • With many geysers, especially saltwater geysers, water management is not a problem.
  • Power is easily managed through space exposure or oil in the nearby planetoid, which provides unlimited energy.
  • With sufficient water and energy, oxygen production becomes straightforward. For early games, using Aloe Vera is very easy. 
• All of our previous solutions still work here. 

Here is my base at 88 Cycles:

Spoiler

 

[hydragyro]

The light level is already very low, and those solar panels are only producing about 40 watts each on average, so it's hardly a complete solution for power, and you'll have to dig them out regularly due to frequent snow meteors. I've played two beta saves past 100 cycles and didn't bother with solar on the second save, it just wasn't worth it.

The salt water geyser presents an opportunity and a problem. Yes, it's a water source, but it's too hot to pump directly without steel. You can let it heat up the environment while also cooling the salt water to iron-ore-pump temperatures, but that's a very temporary solution. It also means you won't be able to grow any of the new plants in an ever-expanding area around the geyser.

I do agree that this new stuff mostly affects the early game, and once you can produce food and oxygen without the new plants there's no reason to keep anything cold (except the mercury biome, but that's more of an annoyance than a challenge). The transition from early-game to mid-game is a bit tricky, since the environmental cold will kill most of the old plants and critters outright; I suggest playing until your food and oxygen production is completely sustainable (including any power required) to see it it's as simple as you predict it will be.

[Tytan]

2 hours ago, evilcat19xx said:

This DLC feels more like a content pack since it does not introduce any new mechanics like Spaced Out did (e.g., space, nuclear, mutations)

unfortunately I have the same feeling, of course there are more things added to the game, but it seems more like a mundane update than necessarily a DLC like spaced out was... it's actually funny that: if you start WITHOUT spaced out and try to play the new dlc you will be able to enjoy things that you shouldn't have without spaced out, or that you don't have in vanilla, so you get a feeling of spaced out with mods

[GluttonyMain]

9 hours ago, evilcat19xx said:

This DLC feels more like a content pack since it does not introduce any new mechanics like Spaced Out did (e.g., space, nuclear, mutations).

They have outright said thats going to be the case with DLCs going forward, becuase it avoids having to design for multiple different systems at the same time (they already have to keep in mind the 2 rocketry systems for each update that involves space, imagine every DLC adding new system)

[pether]

10 hours ago, evilcat19xx said:

This DLC feels more like a content pack since it does not introduce any new mechanics like Spaced Out did

 

8 hours ago, Tytan said:

unfortunately I have the same feeling, of course there are more things added to the game, but it seems more like a mundane update than necessarily a DLC like spaced out was... it's actually funny that: if you start WITHOUT spaced out and try to play the new dlc you will be able to enjoy things that you shouldn't have without spaced out, or that you don't have in vanilla, so you get a feeling of spaced out with mods

They said that making new DLC with new mechanics will in time be impossible to maintain due to growing number of combinations of enabled and disabled DLCs - right now they would have 4 possible ways to play with or without specific DLCs, next time it would be 8. That means balancing and bug fixing 8 different games, it's just impossible. At first they wanted not to release any more DLCs than SO!, finally they moved to a model with DLCs being content packs and huge gameplay changes comming for free for all players.

I hope we will see something like that soon.

Anyway, neither this nor future DLCs will have massive mechanics updates, so please don't expect that

[SkunkMaster]

I'm quite sure I read in a patch note that there is a mechanic with this DLC that is not active in the beta.

 

But other than that I can only agree with everyone else. It seems more like a content pack than a straight up DLC.

 

I'll give Klei the benefit of the doubt, I'm certain they know the difference between a paid DLC and a content pack

[pether]

7 minutes ago, SkunkMaster said:

I'm quite sure I read in a patch note that there is a mechanic with this DLC that is not active in the beta.

There is geothermal POI that is currently inactive, it says it will start working after DLC release

7 minutes ago, SkunkMaster said:

It seems more like a content pack than a straight up DLC.

Well, it is named "Frost Planet Pack" so yeah... it is a content pack

[Gurgel]

Actually, I think this works nicely. The early game is a major part of ONI and the part where you have to improvise and try things. This DLC/content pack does that nicely. Obviously, mid- and end-game will not be affected that much, since the usual point where I think mid-game starts is when you have oxygen, food and temperature solved permanently. At that time all time-pressure goes away and your own personal standard approaches will just work. 

[goetzjam]

• By Cycle 80-100, space exposure allows for free (unlimited) power generation with solar panels, which in turn supports space heaters. Maybe it would be better to make the light dim or almost nonexistent in this planetoid and the nearby planetoid.

 

How are you dealing with the meteors, while they won't damage the panels they will block the light and accumulate on them?   Manually digging them out?   Hardly consider that free then, sure it is some and you can use it.   But space exposure has other uses which is why lux is generated on this planet, removing it would remove the point and synergy with the new plant, so its not an option.

 

While we all approach the game differently, I dont see a test setup for the new critters and foods.  

 

One thing I do agree with is removing the hot water supply, players should not have a clear renewable heat source they can use it mitigate the cold.   That being said, the new plants and animals NEED to be cold, so you don't play this type of map and use them like you would in Ryhme.

 

[evilcat19xx]

15 hours ago, hydragyro said:

solar panels are only producing about 40 watts each on average, so it's hardly a complete solution for power

That is true, but that is more than enough to generate oxygen, food for the dupes, and slowly develop everything else. The colony is stable at that point, it is just slower than a normal run. This means the grind is a bit longer.

 

15 hours ago, hydragyro said:

Yes, it's a water source, but it's too hot to pump directly without steel

I think I used copper, and I have been fine so far. You can always make the water colder with the many ice biomes available on the map. Even if that was the case, it is very easy to get one steel pump.

 

15 hours ago, hydragyro said:

The transition from early-game to mid-game is a bit tricky

It is a bit slower but not much tricky.

6 hours ago, pether said:

Anyway, neither this nor future DLCs will have massive mechanics updates, so please don't expect that

I like the content packs, but they are slightly different from DLCs. Developing new critters is much more straightforward, whereas introducing new game mechanics can be tricky and might break the game due to its complexity. However, even content packs require some mechanical updates. For example, they added Woodheaters, but after the very early game, it’s much easier to use Spaceheaters, making Woodheaters more aesthetic than functional.

In the end, I still hope for new mechanical expansions in future updates, which is why I provided my feedback. Klei has changed their decisions many times in the past. I am part of the group that looks to naturally integrate the new critters and tools into the colony, but if they are not needed, they will be forgotten by many players, like the Somnium Synthesizer.

 

5 hours ago, Gurgel said:

The early game is a major part of ONI and the part where you have to improvise and try things. This DLC/content pack does that nicely. Obviously, mid- and end-game will not be affected that much,

Based on the discussion I have seen here and on the game Reddit, it seems the early game is the part most ONI players replay (not me), and I think they are the main target for this release.

A DLC like Spaced Out affected the game from start to end. Innovation is what keeps ONi's world alive. 

 

4 hours ago, goetzjam said:

How are you dealing with the meteors, while they won't damage the panels they will block the light and accumulate on them?   Manually digging them out?   Hardly consider that free then

That is true. But that only means that your progress is just a bit slower and more grindy for a while. Maybe instead of 30 cycles, it will take you 50 cycles to complete the oil solutions. 

4 hours ago, goetzjam said:

While we all approach the game differently, I dont see a test setup for the new critters and foods. 

In a way, there was no need for those yet. I have around 30 Reed Fibers, which is more than enough for the exosuits to tackle the Oil biome and expand power generation. At this point, I do not even need Floxes that much because I do not need much wood anymore, and the wild ones and trees provide more than enough.

[goetzjam]

Quote

In a way, there was no need for those yet. I have around 30 Reed Fibers, which is more than enough for the exosuits to tackle the Oil biome and expand power generation. At this point, I do not even need Floxes that much because I do not need much wood anymore, and the wild ones and trees provide more than enough.

If you are just going to rush to use the same old systems we've had then what is the point of the new content pack for you?  I'm assuming the unknown POI at the bottom will be enough of a reason for many to play, but figuring out how to survive without falling back on the known staples seems like a good idea.

 

Its possible the implementation into various cold biomes as fragments is interesting enough, but I"m not sure.

 

I think if I do play this map again soon, I'll just rush the teleporter planet get stable there with research and come back with a plan.

 

Regardless you ignored the biggest point I made which is sunlight has to be available on the starting asteroid because of the new plant.

[Hokaeru]

@evilcat19xx Hi, thanks for sharing your experience with the DLC. You said oxygen was sorted since cycle 25, whereas I ran into a CO2 deleting problem with the oxylite, would you mind sharing your design with us so I can learn from you ? 

Regarding your opinion on the fact that is wasn't a challenge, to me it seems like a new fresh (pun not intended) option / challenge : "are you willing to keep the temperature down so your beautiful snow tiles stay intact ?"

Cheers

[evilcat19xx]

@Hokaeru I had a row of Aloe vera at the bottom of the base. Later, I expanded that to two rows. You can see them in the picture I shared in the original post. I did not change them even after 200 cycles.

At the time, I had 4-5 dupes. My guess is that you either accepted too many dupes or used wood burners for energy production, as they emit a lot of CO2. Feel free to share a screenshot of your base; then I could provide more informed help.

I added a mini Rodrigo after 150 cycles for additional oxygen generation and started to vent out the excessive CO2 to the space. 

 

8 hours ago, Hokaeru said:

Regarding your opinion on the fact that is wasn't a challenge, to me it seems like a new fresh (pun not intended) option / challenge : "are you willing to keep the temperature down so your beautiful snow tiles stay intact ?"

 

I agree. That is a limitation we could impose on ourselves to keep nature intact. But I think the developers did not intend that, and the "DLC" feels a bit rushed. Why is there a hot geyser here, and why is the bottom of the map super hot? Everything is melting even if we don't exist on the frosty planet. 

After 200 cycles, it becomes a constant chore to mop the base due to the melting ice. 

 

[Hokaeru]

Spoiler

Still quite an early base

As you can see, no CO2 on the bottom of the map. Gas overlay shows a low pressure of oxygen almost everywhere. So I started using sublimation stations while I'm building the electrolyzer setup on the left. On another thread, fellow dupe-overlords suggested to use the petroleum generator for CO2 supply. 

17 minutes ago, evilcat19xx said:

But I think the developers did not intend that.

The ways of the dev are mysterious, I shall not question them. To me, this game is always about how I can find a creative and fun solution to a problem. Magma fed hatches ? Gassy Moo ranching ? Rust deoxydizer oxygen supply ? I like things even if they are not gold standard. So now, I have even more ways to do silly things. My end goal is usually try to have every planetoid be a sustainable independent colony, each with different food and oxygen supply chains. 

[evilcat19xx]

32 minutes ago, Hokaeru said:

As you can see, no CO2 on the bottom of the map. Gas overlay shows a low pressure of oxygen almost everywhere. So I started using sublimation stations while I'm building the electrolyzer setup on the left. On another thread, fellow dupe-overlords suggested to use the petroleum generator for CO2 supply

You are on the right track. One easy solution is to go to the neighboring planetoid and send back algae and coal. Coal generators provide additional CO2 and energy, while algae generate oxygen. This gives you time to finish your oxygen generation project on your base. If I am not mistaken, you seem to have 6 dupes from the beds, which is a bit too many before sorting out the oxygen generation, but I'm pretty sure you will be fine.

41 minutes ago, Hokaeru said:

The ways of the dev are mysterious, I shall not question them. To me, this game is always about how I can find a creative and fun solution to a problem. Magma fed hatches ? Gassy Moo ranching ? Rust deoxydizer oxygen supply ? I like things even if they are not gold standard. So now, I have even more ways to do silly things. My end goal is usually try to have every planetoid be a sustainable independent colony, each with different food and oxygen supply chains. 

I completely understand your points. I think we have two main perspectives on ONI: survival and goal-oriented players like me, and sandbox players like you. I always try to keep nature intact for aesthetic reasons, but beyond that, I go for what makes sense in terms of roleplaying. If your colony is trying to survive, what is the next logical step they would take? I don't use exploits, but I always look for simple solutions. 

@goetzjam was being sarcastic when he said, "I think if I do play this map again soon, I'll just rush the teleporter planet, get stable there with research, and come back with a plan," but that was one of the first things that came to my mind to do.

[Hokaeru]

I am also on the survival and goal-oriented side  

I get bored too quickly in sandbox 

I just sometimes like unconventional (silly?) goals