Hardmode is not the way to go.

[dst_lover]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

no, i usually stop playing after killing all bosses and since i need to wait for around 35 days if i kill all of them during 1st spring like how i usually do, i just end up not doing mutated bosses because i need to wait for 5 days for varg, 15 for brightshades, around 35 for bearger and around 50 for deerclops and they aren't even fun nor hard, i don't make bases because that's boring

how do u kill all boss in your first spring like some of them like antlion u will have to wait for summer to  just to fight him and even if u say u only care about boss just go to your setting and make it spawn faster and them not being hard for u does not mean they are bad they are very good and fun if u went to paly more the 70 days on your world

[Antynomity]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

A better question is do most people actually even attempt to make it to the end game? If the answer is no then powerceep wasn't the solution even more so when you consider it's that powercreep that makes people care less about the endgame or exploring why try to accomplish something when you can just pick a specific character for your unique and "rewarding" experience. Skill trees aren't helping new players reach the end game all it's doing is making their current gameplay loop a lot easier and the idea that it should is a flawed idea in concept because if that were the goal all characters should have been balanced around the push but as is often said "balance doesn't matter!" can't have it both ways.

I'll once again say I don't hate skill trees but if we're all being honest with ourselves the only thing they're doing for the majority of people is trivializing the early and mid game with overpowered abilities. Which ironically hinders players from learning and deincentivises exploration. 

The thing is "hard mode" is the only direction the game can go at this point as any content before it is going to be a punching bag for people since it can't account for skill trees.

Klei has cornered themselves and they don't acknowledge it either. We just need to suck it up and wait I guess, there has been a ton of feedback on skill trees, how to improve them, hwo to make so they don't powercreep the game further tha nreworks did, every single one has been straight up ignored as far as I'm aware.

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, dst_lover said:

how do u kill all boss in your first spring like some of them like antlion u will have to wait for summer to  just to fight him

i thought that it was obvious that i don't kill bosses that i can't fight without waiting

4 minutes ago, dst_lover said:

even if u say u only care about boss just go to your setting and make it spawn faster

pretty sure that doing that still doesn't make bearger and deerclops spawn during spring and rifts frequency only changes after how much time a rift spawns after you activate them or a previous rift gets removed so still 10 days of waiting for brightshades

6 minutes ago, dst_lover said:

them not being hard for u does not mean they are bad they are very good and fun if u went to paly more the 70 days on your world

they're really boring because pretty much anyone can do them on 1st or 2nd try if they know about mutated deerclops' gimmick and idk how's amount of days that i play for related to them being bad

[Sir Noel]

2 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

I honestly think they do a pretty poor job at this given how inconsistent they are. A big one is how they stick planar perks onto non-allignment perks despite them being completely worthless pre-cc/pre-fw. Why does a new player have to research planar damage before ever opening rifts? Because otherwise they're not going to understand that things like Wigfrid's planar defense perks or Wolfgang's planar damage perks are worthless to them until they do.

A fix to this could be to stick all the planar related skills each character has to only be unlocked after actually opening the rifts of each respective boss per world, not just killing FW/CC once and then having those skills forever. It could be like a separate planar-tree that only unlocks once you open them, and maybe there can be upgraded versions of regular alignment perks? or just move alignment there. This obviously can't happen anymore since it would require a complete rework of the system, but it would make planar less confusing to the average player, since they really won't interact with it until defeating FW/CC. It would also give the devs more flexibility in how they want to handle endgame content in the future, and the skill trees can adapt accordingly.

This would remove all the random useless planar perks from the regular tree and opens the floor to more actually unique skills for the character while letting you focus on planar when it actually matters, and make actually picking an alignment more meaningful (when you can, anyway).

[dst_lover]

5 minutes ago, grm9 said:

i thought that it was obvious that i don't kill bosses that i can't fight without waiting

pretty sure that doing that still doesn't make bearger and deerclops spawn during spring and rifts frequency only changes after how much time a rift spawns after you activate them or a previous rift gets removed so still 10 days of waiting for brightshades

they're really boring because pretty much anyone can do them on 1st or 2nd try if they know about mutated deerclops' gimmick and idk how's amount of days that i play for related to them being bad

if u make your winter very short and spring very short and summer very short in the time u will kill the antlion there will be a rift and bearger will spawn or u can make your first autumn long a bearger and don't kill him until rifts in your spring will spawn and u can make winter long and and make rifts very fast and u should fight them pre 40 days on the world 

 and most bosses when u fight them and kill them in your first time they will not be as hard in your second time just like any boss an the game 

[Jakepeng99]

5 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Ok so if not many people are making it to the endgame then how is "powercreep" not needed?

Its because they cant be bothered going through the process.

[Mysterious box]

57 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

A fix to this could be to stick all the planar related skills each character has to only be unlocked after actually opening the rifts of each respective boss per world, not just killing FW/CC once and then having those skills forever. It could be like a separate planar-tree that only unlocks once you open them, and maybe there can be upgraded versions of regular alignment perks? or just move alignment there. This obviously can't happen anymore since it would require a complete rework of the system, but it would make planar less confusing to the average player, since they really won't interact with it until defeating FW/CC. It would also give the devs more flexibility in how they want to handle endgame content in the future, and the skill trees can adapt accordingly.

This would remove all the random useless planar perks from the regular tree and opens the floor to more actually unique skills for the character while letting you focus on planar when it actually matters, and make actually picking an alignment more meaningful (when you can, anyway).

I know this would be very unpopular but I feel like better solution for skill trees in general would be to make them unlock as soon as you open the rifts. The skill points would still be saved but the trees themselves wouldn't activate until you open them.

1 hour ago, dst_lover said:

idk why a all this hate on the 2023 and 2024 updates even though they make the game a lot batter i know that skill trees make another power gap but its not as big as some people think if a character like willow become as strong as any top tier its ok and even a good thing but the problem to me at least when a top tier gat a skill tree  like wolfgang when he get his skill tree but its not as strong as willow skill tree or any other skill tree so its not that of a power gap to me at least the only power gap that is with wolfgang and wurt but even then u can just nerf them a little bit , and the end game is very fun and rewarding to get and most of the updates are very good and a lot of fun to play and the thing about skill tree it make a lot of characters fun to play and some characters that u can't play it on late game like woodie they are doing a great job to me at least 

Besides a power fantasy what would you say skill trees improved about the game and I say this as someone who enjoys using them.

[BezKa]

4 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

How come it's the players who have already gotten invested into the game that should be abandoning it? Why should they loose the thing they love just so new players can fall in love with something else completely? Ain't that a bit screwed up?

You phrased that better than all my rants combined.

[Cruvimaster]

If all the old bosses and mobs were never changed, but all the characters are getting stronger with reworks and skill trees, how the hell is this game going "hardmode"? And when a giant is reworked, it's always to make it easier. It makes no sense to claim that the game is on the hardmode path.

[loopuleasa]

People are playing this game upwards of 5000 hours

This game was never designed to be played that much, it has limits

It is fine to be done with games, play something else, come back later

[Sir Noel]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I know this would be very unpopular but I feel like better solution for skill trees in general would be to make them unlock as soon as you open the rifts. The skill points would still be saved but the trees themselves wouldn't activate until you open them.

They probably didn't have a full scope of how they wanted to handle skill trees, but in hindsight this would have been the better approach. Some skills are just objectively more powerful than others, and some skill trees are just better than others. If they want to keep some of the more tame early game survival skills or general QoL skills that improve the character, then there needs to at least be some division between those and the super powerful amazingly fantastic alignment skills.

I like the idea of skill trees, but I think my and your idea of what a skill tree should be is different to Klei's. The distinction should be made more clear moving forward.

[Antynomity]

4 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Nah, hold up. Where do you think you're going with this?

First of all. How come it's the players who have already gotten invested into the game that should be abandoning it? Why should they loose the thing they love just so new players can fall in love with something else completely? Ain't that a bit screwed up? How'd you like it if  show or game you like suddenly took a hard 180 to appeal to an entirely different demographic? Probably a bit bad, eh?

That's the thing, we shouldn't feel like abandoning the game. I was very struck when I went from absolutely loving this game, being able to play it for hours on end (when I had the time) and that was after 1500 hours sunk in already, to straight up hesitating to even launch it at times.

I think people who say that we should quit should also understand that if Klei, does keep changing the game drastically, then not only will the people that feel alienated now, would have already been alienated by then, those people who are saying this would also probably start feeling like the game's alienating them in the future.

I know how it feels to have a game that you once loved alienate it's original playerbase by (for that game's terms) awful updates, that only serve to keep milking the game further, and while the milking part absolutely does not fit DST, as skins are an additional part of updates which doesn't take much dev time compared to the updates themselves, I definitely feel like a ton of people are starting to become alienated from the game through updates;

and here's the kicker, I don't ever feel alienated while playing Don't Starve and it's DLCs. So it's very much not me growing out of the game, even if it's correct while I have grown up alongside the game.

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I'd just like to leave it here, thanks to everyone leaving comments under this post, even if with a lot of them I really cannot agree, I still appreciate that people have a space to talk about these kinds of feelings on the forums now; and for the sake of this thread's future, please stay respectful, I don't want this post to join the huge hall of derailed posts locked down because of bickering, thanks!

4 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

If all the old bosses and mobs were never changed, but all the characters are getting stronger with reworks and skill trees, how the hell is this game going "hardmode"? And when a giant is reworked, it's always to make it easier. It makes no sense to claim that the game is on the hardmode path.

hardmode, as in going the terraria route... or at least in theory (not really) of having a point in the game that makes the world... or attempts to make the world harder.

 

3 minutes ago, loopuleasa said:

People are playing this game upwards of 5000 hours

This game was never designed to be played that much, it has limits

It is fine to be done with games, play something else, come back later

Abysmal take, reminds me of Deep Rock Galactic where people used to say the exact thing, despite the game having the groundworks to let people play for years and years without getting bored, that positivity quickly went away when they did 2 mediocre updates in a row, and now we're one really awesome update behind us and basically no one had anything to complain about.

Point is, DST is absolutely a game built to play for thousands of hours, or at least was, when it wasn't becoming easier and easier. It has randomised worlds, a ton of characters with different playstyles (characters are starting to become way more equal which I think is not the way to go, it makes the experiences of each character less unique from one another) and a ton of content, and ways to approach it. Which is why I dislike the 'hardmode' that Klei has been working on since last year, most content in all of Don't Starve / Together, can be done very early on if you're good enough and have the knowledge, excluding season-gated things, that makes runs a lot more unique and I don't understand why that isn't being added upon further, as it exponentially increases the replayability of the game, and a lot more than chracter refreshes/ skill trees could ever dream of doing.

[Mysterious box]

6 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

They probably didn't have a full scope of how they wanted to handle skill trees, but in hindsight this would have been the better approach. Some skills are just objectively more powerful than others, and some skill trees are just better than others. If they want to keep some of the more tame early game survival skills or general QoL skills that improve the character, then there needs to at least be some division between those and the super powerful amazingly fantastic alignment skills.

I like the idea of skill trees, but I think my and your idea of what a skill tree should be is different to Klei's. The distinction should be made more clear moving forward.

You misunderstood the question what specifically have skill trees done to improve the game?

[Sir Noel]

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

You misunderstood the question what specifically have skill trees done to improve the game?

Hm? Did you ask me a question? I don't see a question in your original reply to me, unless you mistook me for someone else.

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

Hm? Did you ask me a question? I don't see a question in your original reply to me, unless you mistook me for someone else.

Quoted wrong person sorry

3 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

Hm? Did you ask me a question? I don't see a question in your original reply to me, unless you mistook me for someone else.

Oh wait i thought you were other guy responding

[Cruvimaster]

Regarding the skill trees, the positive point for me is that the game is always updated instead of long pauses without content. I hope that after finishing this project the DST doesn't fall into a limbo of having updates every 6 months or so.

[Milordo]

3 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Mine brother in Christ Return of them ended 3 years ago. And sense then we've been averaging a single ocean-focused update per year.

You're right, the ocean isn't complete. But Klei has no interest in actually finishing it. And if they are "still cooking" as you say, then the recipe is apparently a Gods-be-Damned Century egg.

The brother in christ killed me ahahahah but it's true. The ocean was officially finished by Klei towards 2021ish + monkey island surprise. In fact this last update started as "Ocean rework update" not new ocean content. So we already let them cook with the ocean and I mean.....eeehh......uurghhh.... ew. 

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

--snip--

In fact new players should be teached in better ways such as making better scrapbook, hints, communications, events, ecc.... It's videogame design 101.

Also I disagree that "hard mode" is the only direction the game can go and I'm still hopeful that Klei can fix and go back to their errors.

[BezKa]

I'm no game dev but if I wanted to make hard mode for DST I would have made the player weaker, not stronger. Making the sides player can choose an infection of sorts, where if you choose one you are permanently weakened by the other with some very minor benefit for the chosen one, like a parasite hesitantly turned symbiotic. You can still add freaky bosses that are even harder, while upping the difficulty for the other bosses by proxy.

And no skill trees

[Milordo]

40 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I know this would be very unpopular but I feel like better solution for skill trees in general would be to make them unlock as soon as you open the rifts. The skill points would still be saved but the trees themselves wouldn't activate until you open them.

I could tollerate them a lot more with this.

[NPCMaxwell]

3 minutes ago, BezKa said:

I'm no game dev but if I wanted to make hard mode for DST I would have made the player weaker, not stronger. Making the sides player can choose an infection of sorts, where if you choose one you are permanently weakened by the other with some very minor benefit for the chosen one, like a parasite hesitantly turned symbiotic. You can still add freaky bosses that are even harder, while upping the difficulty for the other bosses by proxy.

And no skill trees

Exactly what I meant when I once mentioned that if Maxwell suddenly turns to choose lunar alignment I would expect Charlie to "kill" him at sight x) [the least I would expect from her is not making a warning sound anymore and kill him immediately when it gets dark]

No choice should be made without a negative trait by its side, or else the choice feels rather meaningless to me.

[Antynomity]

4 minutes ago, BezKa said:

I'm no game dev but if I wanted to make hard mode for DST I would have made the player weaker, not stronger. Making the sides player can choose an infection of sorts, where if you choose one you are permanently weakened by the other with some very minor benefit for the chosen one, like a parasite hesitantly turned symbiotic. You can still add freaky bosses that are even harder, while upping the difficulty for the other bosses by proxy.

And no skill trees

It is pretty funny... and sad how siding with one of the... basically symbolic devils of the world in-game doesn't bring any disadvantages, which doesn't even really fit the lore as far as I'm aware, at least... and especially for the shadow side, which has always been shown as to give great power at a huge price for the person getting the power/benefits.

[Milordo]

Just now, Antynomity said:

 and especially for the shadow side, which has always been shown as to give great power at a huge price for the person getting the power/benefits.

IN FACT allignments should have huge risk huge reward. Huge pro with huge malus. Not straight up power rangers moves.

[Antynomity]

Just now, Milordo said:

IN FACT allignments should have huge risk huge reward. Huge pro with huge malus. Not straight up power rangers moves.

That in and of itself would literally make me tolerate the current skill trees a lot more, because I'd get to play around with new powers, AND downsides, something which modern characters lack even more-so than old DS characters, which really didn't have big downsides to begin with.

[grm9]

47 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I know this would be very unpopular but I feel like better solution for skill trees in general would be to make them unlock as soon as you open the rifts. The skill points would still be saved but the trees themselves wouldn't activate until you open them

unless you only mean adding only planar stuff to stuff after that, that won't work because woodie and willow sucked before skill tree

13 minutes ago, BezKa said:

Making the sides player can choose an infection of sorts, where if you choose one you are permanently weakened by the other with some very minor benefit for the chosen one, like a parasite hesitantly turned symbiotic

what would that even be? turning into a rotten revived corpse and getting partially turned into a shadow or what?

[cybers2001]

Having your own opinions is one thing, but I think "veterans" should stop trying to speak on behalf of the newbies. Klei would surely know more about how different demographics receive their game than anyone here would, if they are collecting any data at all for their game.