Frustrated regarding Winona update

[shaurun]

Possibly I'm not used to it yet, but I feel so much frustration with the update.

First of, some bugs:

1. Whenever I play Winona, the world becomes very laggy. I play solo (local, 1 player world) - I've tried 1000+ days world with Wurt and his army and it was fine, but lags on Winona. Same with ~30 days world. Same when playing on official Klei servers. Mostly lags start when I use rose-colored glasses or fight with catapults, however this is inconsistent and I can't really tell if it's because of some Winona's mechanics or something else with the update. Anyway it defenitely start happening after the update.

2. Winona's Spot Light could stop working for unknown reason. I used several catapults, generator and single spot light setup, and when the night dropped, the spot light hasn't activated. At first I thought I'm out of fuel but that wasn't the reason, since adding some fuel didn't activated the light. Occured only once and was fixed by dismantling the structure, but probably QAs could play around to reproduce.

 

Now, to my frustration.

1. Rose colored glasses don't have proper indication on what player can interact with.There are "rose" circles which I assume suppose to work somehow, maybe becoming red or something like that when you're close to the target, but it simply doesn't work. I've traveled with it in complete darkness (which I suppose would be thematic), at full moons, at day light, and at nights with light sources - no any indication. You either do know what to seek for, or you don't.  Inscpectacles provide clear indication - I assume rose colored glasses also should do that, e.g. change colors at night if you travel near proper objects at least.

2. 1 nightmare fuel once per day per search. In fact, if you explore the world in complete darkness as Winona, which I suppose you should do with the rose colored glasses and the perk to be immune to Charlie attacks. will lead you to becoming insane pretty often and thus fighting lots of shadow creatures. This way allows you to farm nightmare fuel faster. And in public servers most people do that - just fight shadow creatures. So "seeking for Charlie" is not rewarding enough. You might say that there's a chance to receive pure horror - I'd tell you that after playing ~100 days in 1000+ days world with shadow rifts opened I always received 1 nightmare fuel, no pure horrors. Same to the worlds in public servers with shadow rifts opened.

What I would do to make the perk useful, would be increasing the numbers of nightmare fuel given by Charlie by 10 and possibly increasing the rate of receiving 1 pure horror. Just imagine how usedul the perk will become in public servers when Winona will simply collect nightmare fuel without fighting and bring it to the team. Not fighting shasow creatures is also usefull time-wise since she has to work a lot in order to gain the materials for catapults...

Inspectacles could probably be buffed too, but they offer at least something good for lights out worlds where you don't have tons of gold - electrical doodads are handy, cut stones are also nice + late-game scrap is useful so no complains on that. 

3. Arming catapults. It's simple - why? Can't they detect an enemy like any followers do? I always thought catapults will be my safezone, I run to it and they protect me. What I have instead? I'm running from horde of spiders at night in complete darkness, I can't stop because I don't see anything and I'm afraid, my catapults are here and they're useless. Another scenario: I install catapults near spider dens to destroy them, I seem to arm them but it appears that some of them are not armed, I have to run around and tap spacebar but it chooses different catapult, I'm bitten by spider, etc. 

Yes catapults have better area damage now and they save fuel, but if I'd be able to choose, I'd prefer to spend resources to charge the generators but have my catapults always active. They should be my safe zone. Logically, they could have some aggression-to-player indicatiors and turn on automatically.

4. Portability vs stationary setup. It's very good we can dismantle Winona's structures, but it also gives an idea that player could travel with the catapults, make quick setup whenever he needs it, etc. However, it appears not really worthy in real senario:

• it takes a lot of inventory space
• it takes time to place in emergency situation 
• if you travel with no light... it's impossible to place
• even in scenario you want to farm resources at darkness with spotlight help, you need to have at least 2 spot lights and 2 generators if you don't have other lightsource

So that means you end up using stationary setup all the time. Combine it with point 3: your safe-zone is no longer safe because you need to activate catapults first - this leads to a conclusion that it became more difficult to play.

 

What I like, however, is the disctinctiona between early game and late game. Aligning with Charlie provides you with early game benefits: resurection, night-exploration, bridges and wormholes traveling, and boosts cheep generators. Aligning with Wagstaff is more about scrap for W.A.R.B.I.S. gear and summoning Celectial Champion, stationary teleposrtation (you choose the place, instead of relying on world generation), and suppports costly G.E.M.erators.

I also like that this skill tree hasn't made Winona OP - she is still complecated character, with tons of resource farming, thinking to make clever setup, etc.

Hovewer, listed issues make me feel very hesitant of selecting Winona. Since I can't rely on catapults on daily basis, I almost play as if I'm Wilson until I have enough resources to face bosses with proper catapult setup. Other characters are much cheaper or at least are more interesting in terms of gathering resources for their setups. If I could easily collect nightmare fuel with rose-colored glasses and build catapults which would activate automatically, I would be happy to play as Winona. Also adding some "station pack" item which would allow wrap some setup (e.g. one generator or G.E.M.erator + any possible to place around number of catapults/spot lights) and then place the setup in single click will add some playstyle change to Winona. Also we could probably allow item interaction as Winona at night if she goes Charlie way, so traveling in darkness will become not only useful for exploring the map, but also useful for resources gathering.

[Frosty_Mentos]

I agree with the OP on the fuel from exploration being meager 1 normal or pure horror is pretty lame. There's gotta be some kinda seeker stacking system where you inspect different objects of shadow relation to grow in given resource by a whole lot more instead of just giving one fuel each. What's the point of it if I can kill nightmares and have it easier? That's also a lategame skill to unlock if you survive as a newbie for THAT long, but neither it's rewarding or fun to do so.

I like the mechanic of needing to find and inspect shadow related structures and things, though it's not a clear indicator that wormholes or bridges are a thing. Neither the glasses describe it or there's any indicator when exploring.

Winona catapults needing turning on and off feels like a slight nightmare for regular player to use when wanting to use them quick for something. I get that they are supposed to be a lot more Winona centric but nothing is bigger pain than that turning on animation when acting with each one of them. Activation on fueling should be a thing, if a gem breaks then put another one to activate them back on as a quicker solution.

Winona seeing in darkness shouldn't be a thing as she's not exactly equipped to nor the glasses are. She may get pardon from dying to Charlie, but the world is still there to get her regardless. The only thing to matter for that skill that you can freely lose sanity and freely walk in darkness if you've got the map to navigate without the light. Vision is a core mechanic when it comes to both combat and interactivity, it can be dangerous and it can annoying - but it does it's job as an obstacle from being to do anything in the moment.

My own annoyance about her rework is that her spotlights are still kind of boring. I like free light but I also would enjoy them doing some farm heating or be directed where to light and heat up like incubating eggs or helping crops to grow.

[shaurun]

@Frosty_Mentos I agree on what you're saying, and the ideas with spotlights are so good! It would really be a cool option to hatch eggs, making tallbirds a funny option.

 

However I should admit that I never meant to give Winona any sight in darkness, could you please clarify why you're thinking I proposed that so I can explain myself / correct it.

[Mike23Ua]

This update particularly almost Winona’s ENTIRE skill tree is absolutely Awful for Xbox players.. I Legit don’t even know where to begin.

First off I’ll list the things I like about it-

Being able to side with Charlie & Wagstaff and unlock Winona’s best abilities without having to fight end game bosses (affinities) is extremely helpful for a newer player or less skilled player (like me) and when it comes to the perks you obtain as her “End-Game” Affinity thingy they honestly don’t even feel THAT powerful.. Especially when it comes to Charlie’s Side, sure she gets darkness immunity, but she can’t see s*** and her sanity still starts to Tank, Her Teleports (on Charlie’s side) are limited to Wormholes- Which is cool & not at all OP considering I also own Wortox & Wanda. Being able to upgrade firing rate, AoE damage radius and how long fuel in generators last are all great! I particularly enjoy the Portable Winona Structures & The Heated Spotlights, and I WOULD Enjoy the Rose-Tinted Glasses (more on that later..)

Now for the things that’s frustrating about it…

I’ll start with the heaviest offender in this category, which is Ironically Rose-Tinted Glasses, ughh just UGHHH!!! These things are practically useless when it comes to Vine Bridges, you can’t choose the direction the bridge will be built within, I’m assuming you CAN with a Keyboard & Mouse, but over on Xbox.. you can’t, and what this means is you could’ve tried to bridge a gap to save significant time, but instead it builds a bridge you could’ve just walked around in literally 2 seconds..

Its absolutely AWEFUL.

Then there’s the remote clicker thingy this thing.. I have 13/15 skill points already used up and the ONLY use for this stupid device so far that I can find is it’s ability to arm catapults in range of it.

Again this is f***ing AWEFUL, I imagine that on PC you can scroll your mouse to find a “sweet spot” between two different generators and a whole bunch of Catapults to activate them all at Once, which would be cool, if Xbox had any control whatsoever over this “Activation circle” as it stands right now, You can only activate half on one side or half on the other. I’ve legit not bothered investing skill points into this thing beyond it’s required unlock.

Then there’s the very confusing “WTF is all this? What do I even use it for???” Particularly Wagstaff Cache stuff & Winbot.

The game on Xbox doesn’t actually tell the player what ANY of this stuff does, What is a Calibrated Perceiver?? What’s it used for???

SCRAP OMFG why does Winona NEED so much scrap from Cache Boxes?!?! I would understand if SCRAP could be used to Repair Broken Catapults, or to fuel Generators, but instead I have no damn idea what this resource is even for…! 

it could be something late game, but if it is… it’s pretty useless for newer players, and only a new resource that litters the game world and storage boxes.

It is dumb… I can’t even feed these to WX78 to heal him or some cool crap like that.

Scrap is 125% useless!!!

Then there’s the other stuff, “doohickeys”?? What are these for?!

Lastly on a final note Winbot: There’s no on screen instructions on how to activate or use Winbot, so I just drop it on the ground and it does nothing… until I go on a Wikipedia page and read what im doing wrong with it.

This could probably be made more easily understandable if Winona could use that useless remote to issue commands to it to do things like collect nearby resources or whatever..?

Very unfun skill tree, I enjoy the “concept” very very much but holy god & Jesus does it painfully feel like something designed for KB + Mouse first, and then poorly ported to an Xbox controller. 
 

I love Winona, she’s one of my favorite characters (quotes and skins wise) but this skill tree (outside of portable kit items, heated spotlights and wormhole teleports) is just plain heartbreaking and painful.

[shaurun]

@Mike23Ua it's good you'be mentioned the issues with Winbot, I also had to visit wiki in order to understand what's that for so yes, she needs some quotes to help player. E.g. if she passes by the robot with the tool in inventory she could say something like "what's that? maybe I can use this tool to understand" or something like that. 

Really sorry for xbox struggles. I use keyboard and mouse and honestly I have issues with arming catapults, as I'm annoyed how I should click "alt+left mouse button" with rose colored glasses to inspect the wormhole (so this teleportation is hidden). Bridges also are not intuitive, I am lucky cause I saw this feature on youtube.

[Maxil20]

2 hours ago, shaurun said:

I also had to visit wiki in order to understand what's that for so yes, she needs some quotes to help player.

I wish Winona had locked recipes when you scrolled over the character crafts, and it hinted at needing the calibrated perceiver. IIRC it just reads “some things must be discovered on your own” for those crafts, which is not exactly very helpful and is admittedly confusing.

[Evelo]

I like the catapult skills but her top row I am very disappointed with (aside from the Wagstaff inventions).

The rose glasses are far too powerful, Infinite revives (without dropping your loot) at the expense of 1 inventory slot), Wormhole teleportation to anywhere with no cooldown, crossing 3 tile gaps in the world with no cooldown (actually really neat visually but I feel it doesn't fit Winona's vibe).

She has insane synergy with Wilson who can craft Pure Horror or Pure Brilliance for cheap which makes her catapults even more stronger.

I feel like her first 2 rows of skills are really nice just would like a rebalance on the top row.

[shaurun]

13 hours ago, Evelo said:

I like the catapult skills but her top row I am very disappointed with (aside from the Wagstaff inventions).

The rose glasses are far too powerful, Infinite revives (without dropping your loot) at the expense of 1 inventory slot), Wormhole teleportation to anywhere with no cooldown, crossing 3 tile gaps in the world with no cooldown (actually really neat visually but I feel it doesn't fit Winona's vibe).

She has insane synergy with Wilson who can craft Pure Horror or Pure Brilliance for cheap which makes her catapults even more stronger.

I feel like her first 2 rows of skills are really nice just would like a rebalance on the top row.

Have you played it?

Because real life scenarios are the following:

1. I don't need to jump through wormhole again right after the first jump - I jumped here in order to do something. So cooldwon is meaningless. Also. wormhole teleportation is limiting by itself: same to Wortox, you need to explore the world first. but you won't ever be able to travel to lunar island, for example, or bring shadow pieces if you're unlucky, etc.You also can't use it in caves.

2. I can't imaging any scenario where you will need to build bridge right after you've made one. Why to have cooldown? It's also useless in PvP unlike Wortox's teleportation since you actually leave the bridge for team. It's probably beneficial to be able to transport you team to another biome, but people rarely travel together so close to each other and for the most part, if you play another character, you don't want to ask Winona to create bridge because you want to cross the river. because this will make her stop what she's doing, + spending time in chat - you will likely simply go over and it will take you the same time.

So both features are good, but absolutely not OP.

3. Wilson can craft Pure Horror/Pure Brilliance at will? If you played in public, you will notice that Wilson's don't really practise that. Expecially when it relates to pure brilliance, finding infused moon shards isn't simple. But overall most Wilsons are noobs. You should be very lucky to rely on Wilson in your team in public server.

 

Regarding revives, it's a cool feature to be honest and it could be the reason to suggest Winona to new players (but someone should explain them how to use rose-colored glasses first). However in terms of boss fights life-giving amulet is better (so the boss won't despawn because you've teleported far enough. This can be countered by placing night light however. 

Anyway, that's the only super-cool feature which for some reason beats Wilson's meat effigy, so poor Wilson-man.

[Evelo]

22 minutes ago, shaurun said:

Have you played it?

Because real life scenarios are the following:

- snip-

Yeah that's fair. Wilson doesn't need to be public either just a friend to play Wilson. Or abuse the Celestial Portal (stupid thing, I hate it) to get the benefit.

It is mostly the fact that the Charlie skills don't feel very Winona esque. I get it is because Winona is her sister but it just doesn't feel right for an engineer character to have these kind of abilities.

[shaurun]

14 minutes ago, Evelo said:

It is mostly the fact that the Charlie skills don't feel very Winona esque. I get it is because Winona is her sister but it just doesn't feel right for an engineer character to have these kind of abilities.

But being a sister to a powerful entity could actually affect the character. I personally lile this aspcet of Winona. She is both relative to Wagstaff as her boss and to Charlie as her sister and Charlie forces her to choose: either you continue live the way you lived, with engineering, or you become more relative to me, touching the shadow magic. And Winona. as a person, either invests her time to search for her sister. desperately trying to save her, or to focus on engineering and humnting Wagstaff.

Also note that rose-colored glasses still require craft, but it's more about magic craft. And Winona has 200 initial sanity, making her potentially good magician.

[Intrepidpioneer]

I think that the delay when you arm catapults with the remote should not be there, while being chased the delay is long enough for your attacker to catch up and strike you. I think that when a catapult gets 0% it should turn into broken state like the lunar and shadow gear, brightshade keep destroying my catapults somehow off screen and its annoying having to riskily place a new one close enough to reach them.

Charlie's protection is perfect, and needs no change.

(kinda unrelated) but I think the nautipilot that attracts boats by pairing them should be dismantlable as well, if at least only for winona.

The rose colored glasses rewards for following charlie's trail should definitely be looked at again, you get so much more from the wagstaff hunts than the charlie ones. I only use the glasses to get the fragile rose, otherwise I store it away. I think if it stopped your sanity from decreasing only in complete darkness it would be super good, allowing you to be in darkness forever safe.

I think the different routes are uneven, there's a clear favour of the lunar side, it has forever fuel, and a better teleport. Pure horror fuel is very strong against brightshade but it runs out pretty fast. I think a small buff there wouldn't be strange at all.

[loopuleasa]

23 hours ago, Evelo said:

The rose glasses are far too powerful, Infinite revives (without dropping your loot) at the expense of 1 inventory slot), Wormhole teleportation to anywhere with no cooldown, crossing 3 tile gaps in the world with no cooldown (actually really neat visually but I feel it doesn't fit Winona's vibe).

As much as I love all things shadow, the winona rose perks are overrated

Science all the way for winona, it's not even close