winona poll i guess

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Zima Blue said:

But all I'm asking is to be like it used to before the beta. Everyone could use winona's catapults before, why is it a problem now? Her skills are definitely worth it, the new planar attacks are really strong and Winona can make them shoot even faster. There's definitely a reason to play with Winona, she even teleports now and get revives for free, she gets free pure horror and easy scraps. Klei removed others from using her catapults to stop her from being a swappable character, but she isn't anymore, there's a lot of value in her skills now. I don't get your comparison with Wolfgang, I'm asking for something to stay the same, we were never able to use mighty form with other characters, that makes no sense. 

I think the honest answer is that Winona was the very first refresh EVER and she’s had several re-refreshes & reworks after that, but her problem was and maybe still is she was the first.

She existed long before later DLC characters ever got added like Walter, and Walters Slingshots, which weren’t useable by other characters besides Walter.

Other players can’t even ride or borrow Woby…

Winona (& the way she was designed) is just something that up till now, was lingering design from being one of the first DLCs/reworks.

You can even see it in the newer content stuff.

Wigfrid is the only one who can craft and use her shields and upgraded spears, despite “building stuff to share with others” having always been part of Wigfrids original design.

Ahh but without something to make her unique, a shield that blocks damage and a spear embedded with the power of the gods to effectively “Wheeler Dodge” who even is Wigfrid?

Klei made a wide decision not to let other characters use her Ronds & Dash Spears.

Without the catapults (& the 16 perk slots you can unlock for them) who even is Winona?

Does she have something like Walters Slingshot, Wigfrids spear & shield, Wanda’s Alarming clock, Wormwoods funny plant combat, or Willows Fire Mage powers to give her a unique way of engaging in the games combat?

The answer is no and you know it..

[GimplyGoose]

I would like Winona to lose her "swap character" status with her skill tree and I can see how preventing non-Winona characters from using her catapults accomplishes this. I don't think that is the best way to accomplish it.

DST is a multiplayer game and Winona's perks are kind of based around setting up infrastructure. I think it would unfortunate if the only character who can benefit from the infrastructure is Winona. If you set up some catapult defenses at base and then go exploring, nobody else except for other Winonas can take advantage of the defenses that you set up. The defenses you set up only have value if you are there baby-sitting them. If you are playing wormwood, your bramble traps keep working even if you are somewhere else, but you are much more efficient with rearming them (with the right perks). Maybe that is how it should be with Winona as well?

If DST was a single player game, my opinion would be different.

[chaosmonkey]

13 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

<snip>

If other survivors could utilize the catapults with their basic functionality, it doesn't make Winona less of the catapult lady.

[SilverSpoon]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Without the catapults (& the 16 perk slots you can unlock for them) who even is Winona?

I'm already tired of some people intentionally ignoring the Handy Remote.  

[Zima Blue]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

The answer is no and you know it..

No Mike, don't pretend you know me. As I said before, there's much to Winona now besides her catapult. Of course it is a great part of her, same as Wigfrid battle helmet wich stayed the same after rework and she got an upgrade to it with planar defense just like Winona got an upgrade to her catapults to deal planar dmg. And same as Wigfrid, she got new things that only she can use, like I said before, her teleports, her rose revives, like Wigfrid's battle rond and elding spear, making her even more unique. People are failing to see this, Winona is not only her catapults anymore, she's not a default Wilson without them. There's power in her skill tree besides her base catapult.

 

 

58 minutes ago, chaosmonkey said:

If other survivors could utilize the catapults with their basic functionality, it doesn't make Winona less of the catapult lady.

Plus this. Having other characters interact with her base catapults doesn't take away anything from her. 

[Gashzer]

7 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

I'm already tired of some people intentionally ignoring the Handy Remote.  

The handy remote doesnt compete with me using wanda with my alarming clock and all my backtrek watches plus using winonas catapults.

Winonas perks including the handy remote dont outcompete another character with all their perks PLUS winonas catapults. There will be no reason to play Winona if they revert this beta change.

[grm9]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

There will be no reason to play Winona if they revert this beta change

having fun and not spawning in with catapults at all bosses? i'd need to test later but wolfgang with a dark sword holding F with pre skill tree catapults probably isn't much more than winona with skill tree catapults

[SilverSpoon]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

There will be no reason to play Winona if they revert this beta change.

Wanda is DLC Character and she requires very specific HP management unlike Winona. 

Also, even if I ignore the fact that Winona can operate the catapult more powerfully than other characters, she still has Fast Craft, Trusty Tape, Rose-Colored Glasses, and the Moon thing. Those are reason to play Winona.

And most importantly, Not give players something special for characters in updates and encourage them to play as specific characters, but take away what players were able to do before in updates and force them to play as specific characters, is a BIG BAD CHOICE(Grandiose voice and echo).

[Gashzer]

17 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

Wanda is DLC Character and she requires very specific HP management unlike Winona. 

Also, even if I ignore the fact that Winona can operate the catapult more powerfully than other characters, she still has Fast Craft, Trusty Tape, Rose-Colored Glasses, and the Moon thing. Those are reason to play Winona.

And most importantly, Not give players something special for characters in updates and encourage them to play as specific characters, but take away what players were able to do before in updates and force them to play as specific characters, is a BIG BAD CHOICE(Grandiose voice and echo).

Tbh there is an easy solution to this.

After the them arc is over and we have defeated whatever the final final big bad boss they have planned for.

Klei should allow us to upgrade the celestial portal one last time to be able to become charlie (or some god character) that allows us to use all character perks and skills. To act as a sorta late late late game creative mode.

But as of right now Winona's gear should stay as her own.

[Venurix]

Like why u all wanna other players have winona stuff its like saying I am a woofgang and other charactors should grow mascles too. Leave winona alone why all wanna swap her out

10 hours ago, GimplyGoose said:

I would like Winona to lose her "swap character" status with her skill tree and I can see how preventing non-Winona characters from using her catapults accomplishes this. I don't think that is the best way to accomplish it.

DST is a multiplayer game and Winona's perks are kind of based around setting up infrastructure. I think it would unfortunate if the only character who can benefit from the infrastructure is Winona. If you set up some catapult defenses at base and then go exploring, nobody else except for other Winonas can take advantage of the defenses that you set up. The defenses you set up only have value if you are there baby-sitting them. If you are playing wormwood, your bramble traps keep working even if you are somewhere else, but you are much more efficient with rearming them (with the right perks). Maybe that is how it should be with Winona as well?

If DST was a single player game, my opinion would be different.

To fix this issue just setup catabult to be manuell oparated by other players nothing else like picking her stuff up or its back to ”swap charactor issue.

[ALCRD]

Okay i have to adress this: who is Reecitz and why they are giving everyone waveys across these entire discussions? 

[Dr. Safety]

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

And most importantly, Not give players something special for characters in updates and encourage them to play as specific characters, but take away what players were able to do before in updates and force them to play as specific characters, is a BIG BAD CHOICE(Grandiose voice and echo).

But the nature of character choice is that you have to decide what set of perks you want to play with. You shouldn't be able to cheese this and get the upside of two characters while only getting the downside of one. Any instance of this being possible will make actually playing the characters suboptimal, because 2 sets of upsides will always be better than 1.

On 6/12/2024 at 11:55 PM, Mike23Ua said:

Ironically enough the people who voted “yes” also voted “because it’s for better co-op”

mans gotta call y’all out on that vote, Nothing about Winona being able to build catapults and then leave the game so they remain is “Co-op”

 I think a lot of people overlooked Mike's point here, but he's 100% right. How is having the upside of a character without them actually being present promoting cooperation at all? If you wanna play as Maxwell and hold an enemy in place while a catapult lays into them, then actually cooperate with a Winona player. I think that poll option was made/voted for because it says "yes" and it sounds the least selfish. Character swapping is, at its core, an alternative to cooperation, not an enhancement of it.

[Cruvimaster]

The result of the poll only shows Klei how much Winona is seen as a disposable character by the majority of the community and it will continue like this if the developers do not block the use of catapults for only Winona to use.

[grm9]

41 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

But the nature of character choice is that you have to decide what set of perks you want to play with. You shouldn't be able to cheese this and get the upside of two characters while only getting the downside of one. Any instance of this being possible will make actually playing the characters suboptimal, because 2 sets of upsides will always be better than 1

you don't spawn in with catapults at all bosses, she's better at using them now and i don't see the issue if it's more fun for people

45 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

 I think a lot of people overlooked Mike's point here, but he's 100% right. How is having the upside of a character without them actually being present promoting cooperation at all? If you wanna play as Maxwell and hold an enemy in place while a catapult lays into them, then actually cooperate with a Winona player. I think that poll option was made/voted for because it says "yes" and it sounds the least selfish. Character swapping is, at its core, an alternative to cooperation, not an enhancement of it

you could've also put catapults for other players to use without constantly asking you to come to turn them on and why is that selfish if that isn't hurting anyone?

13 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

The result of the poll only shows Klei how much Winona is seen as a disposable character by the majority of the community and it will continue like this if the developers do not block the use of catapults for only Winona to use

so everyone're objectively having fun the wrong way and devs need to force them to not have fun and stop playing the game

[Blue Tangerine]

I was going to make some comments,but I saw Chaosmonkey and Zima Blue who had expressed my thoughts perfectly. Thank you guys

[Curly Bill]

i just dont believe this whole "it encourages cooperation" talking point. It doesnt encourage cooperation if youre just switching right off the character. I guarantee people who are using this talking point would still have problems with it if the catapults work for other players IF and only IF a winona was on the server. And even after that, i feel they would find a way to get a bot winona to just idle the server. Catapults are unfortunately mainly used for mass farms, and to that maybe we should just get a new Hondious Shootius item or something to replace the old catapults for farms or something.

I just dont think it's "promoting cooperation" if half of that involves a player just not participating after craft.

[Dr. Safety]

28 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you don't spawn in with catapults at all bosses, she's better at using them now and i don't see the issue if it's more fun for people

She's better at using them but not better than other characters using them without her. It's like the Maxwell Wickerbottom thing. Yeah Wicker is "better at using the books" because of the sanity, but the small benefits of using them as her don't outweigh another character getting their complete upsides as well as the books. As for the fun thing, I'm sure it would be considered fun to get Wolfgang's double damage applied to WX or Maxwell, but that doesn't mean it should be possible.

38 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you could've also put catapults for other players to use without constantly asking you to come to turn them on and why is that selfish if that isn't hurting anyone?

Wigfrid can't apply her battle buffs if she's not nearby. Wortox can't heal the team if he isn't nearby. Maxwell can't hold enemies in place if he isn't nearby. You want the upsides? Play as the character or cooperate with someone who is. Just about every teammate focused perk in the game (that is more than just a small sanity aura or a minor convenience) requires the character to actually be there to apply it, besides Warly and Wickerbottom. Catapults are no different. The really good part of their kit requires them to be present, and the more "fluff and filler" stuff (spotlights and I guess WINbot to an extent?) can be used by anyone at any given time.

[grm9]

27 minutes ago, Curly Bill said:

i just dont believe this whole "it encourages cooperation" talking point. It doesnt encourage cooperation if youre just switching right off the character. I guarantee people who are using this talking point would still have problems with it if the catapults work for other players IF and only IF a winona was on the server. And even after that, i feel they would find a way to get a bot winona to just idle the server. Catapults are unfortunately mainly used for mass farms, and to that maybe we should just get a new Hondious Shootius item or something to replace the old catapults for farms or something.

I just dont think it's "promoting cooperation" if half of that involves a player just not participating after craft

it allows people that you're playing with to use stuff that you made without constantly asking you to come and turn it on

26 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

She's better at using them but not better than other characters using them without her. It's like the Maxwell Wickerbottom thing. Yeah Wicker is "better at using the books" because of the sanity, but the small benefits of using them as her don't outweigh another character getting their complete upsides as well as the books

both winona spamming shots and wolfgang holding F with a ham bat and alignment perks require around 25 seconds to kill something with 10k hp that stands still and wolfgang needs to get moon portal, 2 idols and 128 catapults to use that on all bosses instead of 16

26 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

As for the fun thing, I'm sure it would be considered fun to get Wolfgang's double damage applied to WX or Maxwell, but that doesn't mean it should be possible

simply killing things twice as fast with no requirements and strats that that allows you to do doesn't seem fun which is why almost no one plays as wolfgang but sure, why not

26 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

Wigfrid can't apply her battle buffs if she's not nearby. Wortox can't heal the team if he isn't nearby. Maxwell can't hold enemies in place if he isn't nearby. You want the upsides? Play as the character or cooperate with someone who is. Just about every teammate focused perk in the game (that is more than just a small sanity aura or a minor convenience) requires the character to actually be there to apply it, besides Warly and Wickerbottom. Catapults are no different. The really good part of their kit requires them to be present, and the more "fluff and filler" stuff (spotlights and I guess WINbot to an extent?) can be used by anyone at any given time

yeah idk why is it that way and people're only asking to be able to use catapults without skill tree buffs at this point

[Copyafriend]

the coop defense is very simple, and i put it in because its a "pro catapults" argument 

 

its for winonas who leave defenses for hound waves. i leave a presumably automated system to defend an area and it just doesnt activate unless i'm there.

 

whether you think this is ENOUGH of an argument to leave catapults in or not isnt the point.

the POINT of the choice is to show WHY people want catapults left in. because "then my defenses can help defend the base even if i'm not there"

 

i cant stop people from literally just lying on the poll, and frankly ive never switched characters to use catapults on another character. but its just weird to pretend like this isnt a totally reasonable expectation for automated defenses to just defend an area.

[adminaaassh]

In my opinion, many people's objections lack logical reasoning and can only be described as forced arguments. A good example to illustrate the logic about the trebuchet is this: There is a building with a floor that has a restroom. The people on this floor usually use this restroom. One day, the restroom was renovated, and the building manager declared that only one specific room on that floor was allowed to use it, reasoning that this was to highlight the uniqueness of that room. The other people had no choice but to find alternative solutions themselves, as the company did not provide a better option. Then one day, someone from the other rooms on that floor said that this was unfair to them. Some people from the room that was allowed to use the restroom then argued that it was unfair to them. So, who is right and who is wrong in this situation? If it were you, how would you resolve this issue?

I'm sorry if my expression was a bit crude, but the logic remains the same. In my opinion, many people's arguments lack any logical basis and cannot even be considered valid reasons. These people often avoid directly addressing the reasons given by those who agree.

Actually, the main logic is very simple. First, it's a matter of habit. Second, the changes do not offer a better option, only adding inconvenience without enhancing the gameplay. The opponents suggest explaining these issues clearly to make the reasoning convincing.

These were all translated using a machine translator. I'm not sure if the expressions are accurate, but based on the translation, they should be fine.

• Have better alternatives been provided?
• Has the playability of the original game decreased solely concerning the trebuchet? (Please do not mention other items introduced in this update)
• Is this a way of forcing players to choose a new character to play?
• Has this destroyed some of the original game's fun?

Opponents seem to engage in debates with like-minded individuals whose reasoning aligns with theirs, which in reality is an argument between extremes, lacking any logical basis. I would say this amounts to a farce and fundamentally does not solve the problem.

 

[SilverSpoon]

2 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

The result of the poll only shows Klei how much Winona is seen as a disposable character by the majority of the community and it will continue like this if the developers do not block the use of catapults for only Winona to use.

Regarding the concern about "disposable characters," I don't deny that they have been disposable characters up until now, but wouldn't it be better to confirm if she actually remains a disposable character after alpha version update before nerf her?

[zhangsheng]

26 minutes ago, adminaaassh said:

In my opinion, many people's objections lack logical reasoning and can only be described as forced arguments. A good example to illustrate the logic about the trebuchet is this: There is a building with a floor that has a restroom. The people on this floor usually use this restroom. One day, the restroom was renovated, and the building manager declared that only one specific room on that floor was allowed to use it, reasoning that this was to highlight the uniqueness of that room. The other people had no choice but to find alternative solutions themselves, as the company did not provide a better option. Then one day, someone from the other rooms on that floor said that this was unfair to them. Some people from the room that was allowed to use the restroom then argued that it was unfair to them. So, who is right and who is wrong in this situation? If it were you, how would you resolve this issue?

I'm sorry if my expression was a bit crude, but the logic remains the same. In my opinion, many people's arguments lack any logical basis and cannot even be considered valid reasons. These people often avoid directly addressing the reasons given by those who agree.

Actually, the main logic is very simple. First, it's a matter of habit. Second, the changes do not offer a better option, only adding inconvenience without enhancing the gameplay. The opponents suggest explaining these issues clearly to make the reasoning convincing.

These were all translated using a machine translator. I'm not sure if the expressions are accurate, but based on the translation, they should be fine.

• Have better alternatives been provided?
• Has the playability of the original game decreased solely concerning the trebuchet? (Please do not mention other items introduced in this update)
• Is this a way of forcing players to choose a new character to play?
• Has this destroyed some of the original game's fun?

Opponents seem to engage in debates with like-minded individuals whose reasoning aligns with theirs, which in reality is an argument between extremes, lacking any logical basis. I would say this amounts to a farce and fundamentally does not solve the problem.

Firstly, Winona's Catapult is not a public restroom, and even if it is a restroom, it should still be Winona's private restroom. A group of capable characters forcibly occupied her toilet and even promoted that it should be public. Not only that, they also want Winona to make a toilet and drive her away.
Don't think what I'm saying is extreme. This is the current situation, and most people have this idea. So, may I ask who the extreme people are.
 

[adminaaassh]

28 minutes ago, zhangsheng said:

首先，薇诺娜的 Catapult 不是公共厕所，就算是厕所，也应该还是薇诺娜的私人厕所。一群能干的人物强行占领了她的厕所，甚至鼓吹应该公开。不仅如此，他们还想让薇诺娜做一个厕所，把她赶走。
不要以为我说的很极端。这就是目前的情况，大多数人都有这个想法。所以，请允许我问一下谁是极端的人。
 

Firstly, this is an example. Secondly, please address or refute the reasons I mentioned, rather than making irrelevant remarks. What you said only pertains to the original game design.

你的意思是原先官方就想让Winona's Catapult只有Winona她自己能用吗？你的意思是官方一开始就是错的？然后这么多年了，他们不改全是在妥协？你是他们的内部人员，知道他们的内心想法？游玩的人习惯了之后都是将错就错吗？然后强行改正就一点毛病都没有？不会带来任何问题？所有都是合理的？而且那四个问题都没解决呢，会不会减少游戏性啊？会不会改变玩家的一些习惯啊？有没有提供更好的选择呀？这些你回答了吗？

English translation:Are you saying the developers originally intended for Winona's Catapult to be usable only by Winona herself? Are you suggesting the developers were wrong from the start? And all these years, have they simply been compromising without making any changes? Are you an insider who knows their inner thoughts? Do players just accept mistakes once they get used to them? And making forced corrections won't cause any issues? Is everything perfectly reasonable? Moreover, none of those four questions have been addressed yet—will it reduce gameplay? Will it change some player habits? Have better alternatives been provided? Have you answered these questions?

[Demigardenerner]

On 6/12/2024 at 12:49 PM, chaosmonkey said:

False dichotomy. It could be made so that Winona's catapult tree only applies when winona activates the catapults. The old version could remain for everyone else, and Winona can get better version and control with the remote.

The alarming clock could be balanced appropriately to be usable by anyone else. Wanda getting a big bonus on it when she's elderly is what makes it actually useful to her. It could be balanced to be sharable with the whole team, and I wouldn't be against it. It should just be that it's the best when Wanda uses it because it's her item and in the future because she specs her skill tree into melee damage or whatever.

Being able to pick it up and use it and not do as much damage unless you're Wanda seems like a fine solution there. It's this sort of solution that people are asking for with Winona's catapults.

It's not like we've spent a bunch of time building worlds reliant on alarming clocks as other characters, unlike catapults. We're not asking for something new to be given to everyone else, just something old to not be taken away.

I understand people spent countless hours using Winona catapults but every character have a main perk/benefit and a good amount have side perks other characters can use old Winona was swap character because there was no reason to play her because everyone got her main perk so they did what they should of done from the start made her catapults exclusive to her because it’s her main perk just like every other character besides warly you need to constantly play the character to use their main perks so play Winona or take the spotlight and take and be happy.

[chaosmonkey]

The reason she was considered a swap before was because she had nothing beyond being able to simply craft catapults, and everyone got the same benefit as she did. With the skill tree, that's changed dramatically. With her powers, the catapults are far stronger. There's actually an incentive to play her now if you enjoy catapult gameplay. Letting others continue using the base catapult functionality takes nothing away from her.