Affinities are a mistake. Prove me wrong

[Draggofroot]

17 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Would any of it change if you had same bonuses/abilities not from a skill tree, but from crafted items?

No, however the reason they made it the way it is right now is so that it can be a commitment that the survivors make, and they get rewarded for it. Like willow getting a flamethrower and Wilson learning his alchemy.

It wouldn't be a commitment if anyone could make the items.

[Mortalbane]

 

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

You know what's a great and fundamental way to do that?

About limitations - i never said they are bad in general. I said these are bad.
It's like we are forever tied to that lame moon vs shadow conflict. Lame not because the ideas are bad. Ideas are all great - new skills, new mobs, new crafts, choosing a side. But the way it is made, flawed on every level.
I'm really not excited to see how that conflict ends, it feels like Klei themselves don't know, and are making stuff up on the go.

1 hour ago, Draggofroot said:

It wouldn't be a commitment if anyone could make the items.

Nobody said that anyone could make those or use those. Character-specific items. Like Willow's lighter - you can use it as a torch, but you can't cast her spells

[Faintly Macabre]

6 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Did i explain now?

I mean you tried, which is an improvement over the topic post at least

6 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Why do we have affinity branches in the first place? They are locked behind killing bosses, which also happens to mark the start of post-rift content. So their main idea is to help with the new content. That's why they are filled with planar stuff. Does that alone give any builds, roles, playstyles? .Look at Wolfgang, for example. I don't want such affinity branches.

This is just fundamentally wrong. They aren't filled with planar stuff, and their main idea is pretty obviously not to help with post-rift content because 1. post rift content is incredibly sparse, and 2. they're frankly more impactful with pre-rift content. Hell, you deal with shadow aligned creatures from pretty close to the word go in the gameplay loop, and a lot of the shadow perks are just being more combat-effective against them.

22 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Why it matters that they are not on skill tree? So that we could have some actual skills there, worthy of spending points. Adding planar damage can be done outside of skill trees.

There's no reason to believe that if the affinity perks had never been implemented that you'd just get different perks or the same amount of points. The only character with an especially egregious implementation in this regard is Wolfgang, and while that's maybe bears some criticism, it's more than anything a product of the fact that Wolfgang is just boring design-wise.

35 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Why affinity should be only pre- or post-rift? First, to have a system. It's not like one character has 5 skills, and another has 30, they are more or less the same. Similarly, locking skills behind new materials should apply to all or to none, not at random. Why Wigfrid has nothing, while Willow enjoys flamethrowers? Why Willow gets no new crafts from new resources, while Wigfrid does?

This is a whole lot of nothing. There is a system, it's just not a system that suits you, and there's nothing self-evidently wrong with some characters getting their perks in the form of crafts and some not.

36 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Second, until you kill those bosses, your character has nothing to do with moon or shadow. Why Willow has cold flamethrower, if she hasn't met Wagstaff yet? How does that fit in her identity as a character, is she lunar? And don't say that she met him in a previous life, you know what i mean. After first playthrough Willow is suddenly a lunar character with lunar flamethrower. Would she craft a lunar lighter from brightshade - there would be no questions.

Segregation of story and gameplay is a thing. It can be overdone but it's pretty much vital to some degree to make video games actually fun. Most people would not enjoy games where things like fire or bullets are always as life-stoppingly destructive as they are in reality, so generally, a fireball doesn't mar you for life and a bullet doesn't cause irreparable and often deadly damage to your internal organs.

Anything else?

24 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

About limitations - i never said they are bad in general. I said these are bad.

But have yet to demonstrate that to be true, hence my original post.

[Anis5240]

It's kinda bad in execution, you get what I mean? Just look at the 3-tier planar damage Wolfgang affinity perk. Why do that when it can be condensed to just 2 tiers? Not to mention before the skill tree spotlight thing, Wolfgang got his rework just about a year prior. Why not giving chances to the old reworked characters first to be "fixed" via these skill trees? Yes, Woodie and Willow too got their skill tree too by now, but still.

I have been saying Klei barely got any creative ideas these days, but of course not of it was true. I enjoyed the designs of the moon-tated bosses, especially Crystal Deerclops.

Story-wise and gameplay-wise can still exist y'know, but what Klei do right now is flawed.

[goblinball]

7 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

Planar damage can and should be tied to crafts, not to a skill tree

Why?

 

7 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

Affinity branches can't decide if they are post-rift or not

This isn’t really a problem 

 

7 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

3. Moon vs Shadow is limiting

Are you saying that there will be no new major arc with several new bosses, leading to a new mega boss? Like the Celestial Champion arc now.

We’re literally going through that major arc right now (from beyond). We have new post cc/fw content which will probably lead up to some stuff, potentially another superboss or 2 (there’s already all the lunar mutant bosses for crying out loud). There’s also the daywalker arc, and sharkboi will presumably have more content as well.

 

8 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

4. It is as if we are picking sides, but we are not

First, skills are unlocked after you kill a boss, and not after you give its loot to Charlie/Wagstaff. So, the Queen actually doesn't "reward your loyalty", and Cryptic Founder doesn't "reward your curiosity". it's more like you get the power by "absorbing the essence" of that boss.

This is excessively pedantic.

 

8 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

Second, we can pick lunar affinity, kill shadow stuff, then use celestial portal, pick shadow affinity and kill lunar stuff. Doesn't look like picking a side.

You’re still picking a side, you just have the option to undo it, which is a good thing. If you really don’t want to use the celestial portal because being able to swap affinities really breaks your immersion for some reason then just don’t use it.

 

8 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

Third, this "picking a side" is nothing but a flavor text on some skills. Charlie and Wagstaff don't care about us, and we don't care about them. The game offers literally no feeling of working for one of them.

No, it’s also the skills themselves.  Yknow, if you pick the lunar side you get lunar perks, if you get the shadow side you get shadow perks. You’re “working for them” by killing the monsters they want you to kill and by using their post rifts equipment.

[Anis5240]

17 minutes ago, goblinball said:

using their post rifts equipment

I think it could be great if people can get more efficiency from their respective chosen affinity's tools, and got lesser efficiency from the opposite side's tools. Like how the Void Cowl can boost the Shadow Reaper's damage after some time.

But of course this exact kind of thing will get people riling over how unfair it gonna be so like why bother

[goblinball]

45 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

I think it could be great if people can get more efficiency from their respective chosen affinity's tools, and got lesser efficiency from the opposite side's tools. Like how the Void Cowl can boost the Shadow Reaper's damage after some time.

But of course this exact kind of thing will get people riling over how unfair it gonna be so like why bother

I don’t really see the point in this how would this be any fun

alignment doesn’t need to apply to everything, that’d restrict your options way too much and like either way you’re going to be using the post rift equipment this stat boost is pointless

[Anis5240]

3 minutes ago, goblinball said:

how would this be any fun

It won't be like the good kind of fun, sure. But at least the alignment skills can be more impactful, even by just a bit. The warnings player get before activating the rifts will have more consequences. Choosing a side should have more impacts than just 10% more damage/10% less damage. Would a lunar-affinity player gonna suffer in acid rain? Sure, but it's not like he's prohibited from using the umbralla. The umbralla can still be placed on the ground for the AOE protection, but maybe can make the area smaller.

Same goes for the shadow-affinity player with the lunar hail. They can get more damage when got hit by the shards, but also can have more protection from the umbralla. And it's not like the umbralla is the only way to avoid the hail. The above average trees and even the normal trees can protect them just fine.

If a player holding a shadow weapon can be attacked by the greater gestalts in the Lunar Grotto, why shouldn't the opposite happen?

This game should move past catering of any (crybaby) player's needs. Yes, I may be tooting my own horn for keep asking for Wilson's skill tree improvement, but the game itself is changing. There's no real base game experience, aside from not choosing any of Wilson's insight points. But why would you (and I, and any other Wilson players) do that? Same goes for any other characters.

[Mortalbane]

10 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

2. they're frankly more impactful with pre-rift content. Hell, you deal with shadow aligned creatures from pretty close to the word go in the gameplay loop, and a lot of the shadow perks are just being more combat-effective against them.

Wigfrid's and Wilson's are surely more impactful. WW case looks the best, cuz you have early-game skills, and then can use portal and add late-game skills. Even add, not replace. But this involves portal. And you know what can do same but better? Post-rift items.
Choosing a side is kinda not a choice, if you deal with shadow creatures whole game.

10 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

There's no reason to believe that if the affinity perks had never been implemented that you'd just get different perks or the same amount of points. The only character with an especially egregious implementation in this regard is Wolfgang, and while that's maybe bears some criticism, it's more than anything a product of the fact that Wolfgang is just boring design-wise.

True, there is no guarantee. But there is a chance, that if affinities were not included in trees, devs would put more thought and effort into skills themselves, creating diversity and so on.

10 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

This is a whole lot of nothing. There is a system, it's just not a system that suits you, and there's nothing self-evidently wrong with some characters getting their perks in the form of crafts and some not.

This is a whole lot of nothing. You see system, where there is none. One character gets this, one gets that, one can skip the boss and get all skills at once.
I don't like that skill points are not reset to zero in a new world. This is a system that doesn't suit me. Affinities are not a system.

10 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Segregation of story and gameplay is a thing. It can be overdone but it's pretty much vital to some degree to make video games actually fun. Most people would not enjoy games where things like fire or bullets are always as life-stoppingly destructive as they are in reality, so generally, a fireball doesn't mar you for life and a bullet doesn't cause irreparable and often deadly damage to your internal organs.

Yeah, a thing - called ludonarrative dissonance. Which is never a good thing. In your overexaggerated example with bullets, which has nothing to do with how "choosing a side" should work, you forget one important rule. In simulators (and DST is a simulator of a survivor in a strange world), the closer you are to realism, the better. Look from this perspective at successfull games. Of course, to some extent, so game would still be fun and not overcomplicated, like lethal bullets, or having to pee or poop.
So, "a lunar flame formula given by the Cryptic founder", according to this logic, is in a form of lunar lighter, not a skill in a skill tree. And this is not overcomplication, it is exactly the solution to the ludonarrative dissonance.
A better solution. Because i mentioned this saying that "text makes no sense". Change the text - get rid of the problem. Worse and lazy solution, but still.

Anything else?

[Arcwell]

There is really nothing to prove here.

If you think affinities are bad, that's okay. Personally, I like their concept and implementation, although admittedly the more mundane ones like Wilson's and Wigfrid's could use more flair.

In either case, I highly doubt Klei would ever outright remove them.

[Mortalbane]

I've edited the original post to include more stuff

________________________

 

1 hour ago, Arcwell said:

In either case, I highly doubt Klei would ever outright remove them.

I doubt it as well. Well, maybe in a few years, in another re-rework

7 hours ago, goblinball said:

We’re literally going through that major arc right now (from beyond). We have new post cc/fw content which will probably lead up to some stuff, potentially another superboss or 2 (there’s already all the lunar mutant bosses for crying out loud). There’s also the daywalker arc, and sharkboi will presumably have more content as well.

But it will end some day. Then y'all will remember my words, and i will have a big cup of itoldyouso =)

7 hours ago, goblinball said:

You’re still picking a side, you just have the option to undo it, which is a good thing. If you really don’t want to use the celestial portal because being able to swap affinities really breaks your immersion for some reason then just don’t use it.

But we can't undo rifts, why we can undo choice.
This is part of a bigger issue with the celestial portal, which allows you to re-spec skill points. This makes choice shallow, this makes "early game skills" and "switch skills", which have their value reduced to zero after some time. As i said, i have a lot of issues with skill trees, affinity is just one of them.
In games like Diablo i'd like to have the ability to re-spec. It's not rogue-like, i don't want to make another same character to test all skills.
DS/T is a rogue-like. Ability to re-spec should be considered only for endless modes, if at all.
Difference is if permadeath mode is an option, or a default.

7 hours ago, goblinball said:

No, it’s also the skills themselves.  Yknow, if you pick the lunar side you get lunar perks, if you get the shadow side you get shadow perks. You’re “working for them” by killing the monsters they want you to kill and by using their post rifts equipment.

This is excessively forgiving for a lazy approach.

[Ryusuta]

My affinity will always be Team Survivors. Screw Lunar, screw Shadow. The Survivors are where my allegiance will always lie.

[Anis5240]

53 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

we can't undo rifts

Technically you can turn off the rifts in the world settings (yes, even after you opened it the first time), but like, why would people do that in their normally played world? It's going to be a waste of another Enlightened Shard/five dreadstones. And we all know how the CC quest can get pretty boring, especially with the moonstorm minigame.

7 hours ago, goblinball said:

Yknow, if you pick the lunar side you get lunar perks, if you get the shadow side you get shadow perks. You’re “working for them” by killing the monsters they want you to kill and by using their post rifts equipment.

But like only for damage? That's kinda shallow, don't you think? And players don't even feel like those choices matter. The only one affinity that I think is decent and have enough impact to be at play was Woodie's Shadow Wrangler perk.

[Faintly Macabre]

2 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

Wigfrid's and Wilson's are surely more impactful. WW case looks the best, cuz you have early-game skills, and then can use portal and add late-game skills. Even add, not replace. But this involves portal. And you know what can do same but better? Post-rift items.
Choosing a side is kinda not a choice, if you deal with shadow creatures whole game.

I don't understand what that first paragraph was trying to say, at least not in relation to the part of my post you quoted. And all of those perks stack with post-rift items, and have the bonus of... not requiring you to be post-rift. Help me understand what you're getting at here.

The second bit, hey, we almost got to an actually debatable criticism! Except that most of the affinities actually provide appreciable benefits regardless of which side you pick, because of the few that have combat effects against aspected enemies, only Wolfgang's affinities offer benefits that only work against one of the two (not counting Willow because her Bernie perks aren't her only aspected options and her others don't care what the enemy is). Both Wigfrid's and Wilson's provide offensive benefits in one direction while giving defensive benefits in the other. If you want to argue whether or not offensive benefits outweigh defensive ones, I'm happy to have shown you where to move your goalposts to next, but I won't be following. I'd basically be arguing with myself at that point.

2 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

True, there is no guarantee. But there is a chance, that if affinities were not included in trees, devs would put more thought and effort into skills themselves, creating diversity and so on.

Probably not any more than was put into the affinities. I assume your rebuttal is that little or no thought was put into the affinity perks but except in Wolfgang's case that's just not true, no matter how much you don't like them.

2 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

This is a whole lot of nothing. You see system, where there is none. One character gets this, one gets that, one can skip the boss and get all skills at once.
I don't like that skill points are not reset to zero in a new world. This is a system that doesn't suit me. Affinities are not a system.

The system is very simple: if you do this, you can have this, or you can have that if you do that, but not both. That's a system. It's not a very complex system, but it doesn't need to be. Also what are you talking about? Who can skip what boss? All of the affinity skills require you beat either CC or AFW. Nobody can skip them.

2 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

Yeah, a thing - called ludonarrative dissonance. Which is never a good thing. In your overexaggerated example with bullets, which has nothing to do with how "choosing a side" should work, you forget one important rule. In simulators (and DST is a simulator of a survivor in a strange world), the closer you are to realism, the better. Look from this perspective at successfull games. Of course, to some extent, so game would still be fun and not overcomplicated, like lethal bullets, or having to pee or poop.
So, "a lunar flame formula given by the Cryptic founder", according to this logic, is in a form of lunar lighter, not a skill in a skill tree. And this is not overcomplication, it is exactly the solution to the ludonarrative dissonance.
A better solution. Because i mentioned this saying that "text makes no sense". Change the text - get rid of the problem. Worse and lazy solution, but still.

Ludonarrative dissonance is literally unavoidable. It's all about degrees. And no, I'm sorry, but DST is absolutely not a simulator in any appreciable sense. No serious person would ever call DST a simulator. And even if it were, uh, that's not true! It is absolutely not always the case that closer to realism is better... as you concede two sentences later? Did you lose track of what you wrote here?

Also bro, do you think you can build a machine out of rocks and logs that will teach you to turn pig skin into umbrellas and backpacks? There is no need for a "solution to the ludonarrative dissonance" because most people have accepted that they're playing a very silly and nonsensical game and read these skill descriptions and rightfully thought, "Oh, silly flavor text," and went on to like, have fun. In fact part of your entire argument hinges on a supposition that most people probably never even approached: that you're actually, meaningfully "taking sides." It seems very unlikely that these cutesy bits of flavor are real pledges of allegiance to a particular side. Why? Because neither side cares if you live or die. Wagstaff is a literal psychopath who has ruined dozens of lives that we know of and Charlie is off her rocker. Most people will never have read this narrative significance into these choices because actually siding with either of them doesn't make any sense at all. How would Wormwood even factor into this? He doesn't even get a choice, and his lunar perks don't have anything to do with Wagstaff at all. You've read meaning in where there almost certainly is none. This problem is only a problem for you and the other handful of people actually still scratching their heads over why you couldn't just cast Raise on Aerith.

3 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

Anything else?

Yeah. Do you have many more vaguely valid criticisms for me to drag out of you? This is exhausting.

[Mortalbane]

1 hour ago, Anis5240 said:

Technically you can turn off the rifts in the world settings

But not in game. Technically you can switch characters with a mod, without celestial portal
Anyway, none of that is the point

[Mortalbane]

3 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

I don't understand what that first paragraph was trying to say, at least not in relation to the part of my post you quoted. And all of those perks stack with post-rift items, and have the bonus of... not requiring you to be post-rift. Help me understand what you're getting at here.

The second bit, hey, we almost got to an actually debatable criticism! Except that most of the affinities actually provide appreciable benefits regardless of which side you pick, because of the few that have combat effects against aspected enemies, only Wolfgang's affinities offer benefits that only work against one of the two (not counting Willow because her Bernie perks aren't her only aspected options and her others don't care what the enemy is). Both Wigfrid's and Wilson's provide offensive benefits in one direction while giving defensive benefits in the other. If you want to argue whether or not offensive benefits outweigh defensive ones, I'm happy to have shown you where to move your goalposts to next, but I won't be following. I'd basically be arguing with myself at that point.

About Wigfrid and Wilson's affinities being useful it was sarcasm.
Bonuses like +10% defense/offense are lazy and unnecessary. New players won't have them, veterans don't want their game to be easier. When you get post-rift gear, you can have bigger bonuses and start stomping pre-rift enemies, cuz they are no longer that relevant.
You can't say that having a defense vs one and offense vs other, and vice versa, is good and justified. Shadow creatures are the main threat throughout the game. Defense is worse than offense with DST combat system, where you most of the time can evade damage completely and where you have weapon durability. There is nothing here to argue about. So yeah, if you wanna argue about that, do it with yourself.

3 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Probably not any more than was put into the affinities. I assume your rebuttal is that little or no thought was put into the affinity perks but except in Wolfgang's case that's just not true, no matter how much you don't like them.

You assume wrong. First, affinity skills vary in quality from character to character, i'm not saying they all are bad.
Second, some i consider good, but don't like them, personal preferences have nothing to do with that. For example, i use WW's summons and find them good for what they do, but if i was making his affinities, he would not have carrats/lightbugs/salamanders. And i'm not saying that perks that i'd make would be better than those summons, they would be different.
Third, on the initial subject. Affinities mainly seek to enhance what the character already does, and Wolfgang is the pinnacle of that. With no affinities on the tree, there would indeed be a higher chance the devs would start thinking what Wolfgang could possibly have or be doing. With current affinities and planar damage they have their work cut out for them.

3 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

The system is very simple: if you do this, you can have this, or you can have that if you do that, but not both. That's a system. It's not a very complex system, but it doesn't need to be. Also what are you talking about? Who can skip what boss? All of the affinity skills require you beat either CC or AFW. Nobody can skip them.

It seems you don't know how Wormwood's affinities work, and what is fundamental difference compared to others.

3 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Ludonarrative dissonance is literally unavoidable. It's all about degrees. And no, I'm sorry, but DST is absolutely not a simulator in any appreciable sense. No serious person would ever call DST a simulator. And even if it were, uh, that's not true! It is absolutely not always the case that closer to realism is better... as you concede two sentences later? Did you lose track of what you wrote here?

Do you even know what that dissonance is? It's not unavoidable. And there is no need o create it where it can be so easily avoided.

Simulator in a broader sense. All games are simulators, on the scale from being a total arcade (often with weird rules to make the game more interesting) to being totally real-life accurate.
Good game design is when you stick to the realism as much as you can, without hindering or overcomplexifying your game.

I see you often have troubles understanding what i say. Guess i have to explain things in simpler terms, and provide vivid examples.
Chess simulate battle between two armies. Does it need hp or special abilities? No, it would be overcomplexifying. It has weird rules like moving in weird patterns, and so on. Because chess is closer to the arcade on the scale.
DST simulates survival, it has hunger, dangerous world, where you can go insane. You craft torches and tend to farms, like in real life. Making it more realistic here would hinder and overcomplexify.
 

3 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Also bro, do you think you can build a machine out of rocks and logs that will teach you to turn pig skin into umbrellas and backpacks? There is no need for a "solution to the ludonarrative dissonance" because most people have accepted that they're playing a very silly and nonsensical game and read these skill descriptions and rightfully thought, "Oh, silly flavor text," and went on to like, have fun. In fact part of your entire argument hinges on a supposition that most people probably never even approached: that you're actually, meaningfully "taking sides." It seems very unlikely that these cutesy bits of flavor are real pledges of allegiance to a particular side. Why? Because neither side cares if you live or die. Wagstaff is a literal psychopath who has ruined dozens of lives that we know of and Charlie is off her rocker. Most people will never have read this narrative significance into these choices because actually siding with either of them doesn't make any sense at all. How would Wormwood even factor into this? He doesn't even get a choice, and his lunar perks don't have anything to do with Wagstaff at all. You've read meaning in where there almost certainly is none. This problem is only a problem for you and the other handful of people actually still scratching their heads over why you couldn't just cast Raise on Aerith.

If you say "Cryptic Founder rewards you with a formula for lunar flame", and it's a scientist guy who makes gadgets, i expect to see a schematic for a lunar flamethrower. So make a lunar lighter (then sell skins for it).
If you aren't making a lunar lighter, make better flavor texts. Because some people read text. Is that so hard to understand?

About story and choices. I got the impression that Klei is trying to tell us a story. To make us part of that story. Why do they make those animated shorts and put so much effort in that? It's not like, for example, Overwatch, where whatever happens in animations has no impact on gameplay.
Again, if you are saying that we work for Charlie/Wagstaff or serve them, make me feel it. Otherwise, don't say that.
And again, i have all the rights to ask questions about that, because Klei is telling a story. It's not tetris or CS:GO that i'm playing.
Failing to answer those questions properly just indicates lazy approach. Would you mind those choices and that story being more impactful and involved? I doubt.

You say it's my problem, i say that people who don't care about that would eat any content anyway, be it like what it is now or what it could potentially be. I will never encourage laziness in approach. Once again, don't wanna do big complex choice - don't hint it.
 

3 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Do you have many more vaguely valid criticisms for me to drag out of you? This is exhausting.

Oh, i have plenty. But having to explain why this or that is relevant, why can it be done better at almost no cost, is no less exhausting.

So far, you have not said a single thing that would prove that current system is better than what i'm saying. All you do is trying to prove that issues i have with affinities are nonsense, and so far you haven't succeeded.
All your arguments boiled down to "this is a problem for you, mate".
And i can say "it's not a problem for you, mate".

I just want more skill tree builds, consistent systems and story with meaningful choices, and me having that will not in the slightest affect people that think everything is fine as is.
It's like you fail to understand that, or don't want that.

[Faintly Macabre]

16 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Bonuses like +10% defense/offense are lazy and unnecessary. New players won't have them, veterans don't want their game to be easier. When you get post-rift gear, you can have bigger bonuses and start stomping pre-rift enemies, cuz they are no longer that relevant.
You can't say that having a defense vs one and offense vs other, and vice versa, is good and justified. Shadow creatures are the main threat throughout the game. Defense is worse than offense with DST combat system, where you most of the time can evade damage completely and where you have weapon durability. There is nothing here to argue about. So yeah, if you wanna argue about that, do it with yourself.

See, all of your points boil down to pure opinion and preference. +10% defense/offense is just fine and no more or less lazy than many other skill tree perks. They're not all meant to be complex and gamechanging. And don't presume to speak for all "veterans," nebulous a group as that is. Lots of people like killing things faster. It's why solo players often switch to Warly and make his special foods, and why people set up efficient mob farms.

And your new goalpost location is noted, and ignored.

27 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

You assume wrong. First, affinity skills vary in quality from character to character, i'm not saying they all are bad.
Second, some i consider good, but don't like them, personal preferences have nothing to do with that. For example, i use WW's summons and find them good for what they do, but if i was making his affinities, he would not have carrats/lightbugs/salamanders. And i'm not saying that perks that i'd make would be better than those summons, they would be different.
Third, on the initial subject. Affinities mainly seek to enhance what the character already does, and Wolfgang is the pinnacle of that. With no affinities on the tree, there would indeed be a higher chance the devs would start thinking what Wolfgang could possibly have or be doing. With current affinities and planar damage they have their work cut out for them.

Skills in general mainly seek to enhance things the character already does. Like, what? And you couldn't possibly pick a worse example for whose tree would maybe sort of possibly get better if affinities didn't exist than Wolfgang, the character whose entire skill tree is basically padding.

33 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

It's not unavoidable.

I'm gonna take an L here because I neglected to go back and replace "ludonarrative dissonance" with "segregation of story and gameplay," and even then that's only virtually impossible to avoid, if you want to tell a story any more complex than Super Mario Bros.

51 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Simulator in a broader sense. All games are simulators, on the scale from being a total arcade (often with weird rules to make the game more interesting) to being totally real-life accurate.
Good game design is when you stick to the realism as much as you can, without hindering or overcomplexifying your game.

You can justify your usage of this word however you like, but nobody who wasn't trying to make a BS argument would ever try to call DST a simulator. and "sticking to realism as much as you can" is not an essential tenant of all good game design. It's just not. This is easily blown out of the water by just going to an action movie. Is it at all realistic for cars to blow up like bombs in any impact or when shot at or whatever? No. But most of the audience probably gets a kick out of it. The fact that a handful of killjoys in the audience value strict adherence to physics over getting to watch **** blow up only makes that bad movie making if you're a pretentious fun-hater. Which a lot of people are, to be fair. Thankfully, that doesn't take the fun out of it for others.

1 hour ago, Mortalbane said:

opinions

That's all most of the rest of this and most of your argument in general boils down to: opinion, preference. I say it's your problem because it is your problem; people who don't hang on every word used and don't take literally everything as having deep narrative meaning have glanced by these bits and pieces, appreciating their flavor, and just moved on, and that's a perfectly normal and appropriate thing to have done. Receiving things as the average person can see they're meant to be received does not make them lesser consumers of content. You're just being pretentious and overly opinionated. Which is actually fine, in and of itself? But your topic is not "I don't like affinities" or "Affinities could be better" or even "Affinities suck". It's "Affinities are a Mistake. Prove me wrong." It suggests that the substance will be something if not objective than at least compelling, and the overwhelming majority of what it ultimately had to offer was completely subjective opinions, petty gripes about consistency, and unfulfilled expectations nobody but you and a minority of others would ever have had.

[Mortalbane]

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

And you couldn't possibly pick a worse example for whose tree would maybe sort of possibly get better if affinities didn't exist than Wolfgang, the character whose entire skill tree is basically padding.

It's the best example to my point. Failing to understand that doesn't make it worse. If you need another round of explanation, feel free to ask.

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

I'm gonna take an L here because I neglected to go back and replace "ludonarrative dissonance" with "segregation of story and gameplay," and even then that's only virtually impossible to avoid, if you want to tell a story any more complex than Super Mario Bros.

Well, add another L there and learn some terminology, i guess. And don't forget to learn it conceptually, what applies where, what is unavoidable and what isn't, and how all that applies to the case.

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

You can justify your usage of this word however you like, but nobody who wasn't trying to make a BS argument would ever try to call DST a simulator. and "sticking to realism as much as you can" is not an essential tenant of all good game design. It's just not. This is easily blown out of the water by just going to an action movie. Is it at all realistic for cars to blow up like bombs in any impact or when shot at or whatever? No. But most of the audience probably gets a kick out of it. The fact that a handful of killjoys in the audience value strict adherence to physics over getting to watch **** blow up only makes that bad movie making if you're a pretentious fun-hater. Which a lot of people are, to be fair. Thankfully, that doesn't take the fun out of it for others.

You are so far here from understanding my view, that i won't even bother explaining it.
I never said anything that could lead to such conclusions, i guess you should add another L and re-read all my messages. Preferably without your projection of what i said, and with actually understanding what i said.

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

It's "Affinities are a Mistake. Prove me wrong." It suggests that the substance will be something if not objective than at least compelling, and the overwhelming majority of what it ultimately had to offer was completely subjective opinions, petty gripes about consistency, and unfulfilled expectations nobody but you and a minority of others would ever have had.

Well, if it's not objective and compelling to you, it doesn't mean it's not objective and compelling at all.
I've listed facts:
main
-system is not consistent, every case is an exception, which unnecessarily contributes to imbalance
-current affinity form limits to moon vs shadow, making affinities through crafts has no limits
-creates false promise of picking a side (while this is not relevant to you, it's relevant to people who follow the story and immerse themselves. Also it's the easiest issue to fix by just fixing the text)
this proves that system is objectively flawed

also
-removing affinities from trees gives higher chance of having more variety in builds
-all of the above is relatively easy to fix. Planar damage and abilities can be done outside of skill trees easily, and that would even add some logic
-adding more items means adding more skins, means more money

How any of that is not an objective fact? 
It's as much fact as that Wilson's torch is underwhelming, as long as lantern exists. It's not personal opinion.

You probably should start listing facts proving any of this wrong, or i'll be just ignoring you. Don't like wasting time.
You've turned this thread into a semi-personal fight, instead of simply listing some facts. You won't prove that my point of view is any worse than yours, especially when you fail to understand concepts or what the other person is even saying. Don't waste your time as well.

[grm9]

7 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

It's as much fact as that Wilson's torch is underwhelming, as long as lantern exists

some people still use it, so no, it isn't

7 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

which unnecessarily contributes to imbalance

how? that also applies to characters' perks, should they also be standardized to be only numbers changes? why on earth would you care about balance in a game that isn't competitive and what even is balance and how do you know that something is objectively balanced in a game without a goal?

9 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

current affinity form limits to moon vs shadow, making affinities through crafts has no limits

why do you think that adding more affinities is impossible?

10 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

creates false promise of picking a side

it doesn't, no one promised you anything

12 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

this proves that system is objectively flawed

it doesn't

12 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

removing affinities from trees gives higher chance of having more variety in builds

it doesn't, they can add as many perks and points as they want without having to remove anything

12 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Planar damage and abilities can be done outside of skill trees easily, and even add some logic

what's the reason for doing that?

14 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

all of the above is relatively easy to fix

why would it get changed?

14 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

adding more items means adding more skins, means more money

there already are a lot of items without skins and they could just make skins for popular characters and early game items that all characters can use 

21 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

You are so far here from understanding my view, that i won't even bother explaining it.
I never said anything that could lead to such conclusions, i guess you should add another L and re-read all my messages. Preferably without your projection of what i said, and with actually understanding what i said.

You probably should start listing facts proving any of this wrong, or i'll be just ignoring you. Don't like wasting time.
You've turned this thread into a semi-personal fight, instead of simply listing some facts. You won't prove that my point of view is any worse than yours, especially when you fail to understand concepts or what the other person is even saying. Don't waste your time as well

you should learn how to talk to people without causing disgust

[Faintly Macabre]

12 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

How any of that is not an objective fact?

Oh Jesus. Yeah, say something like "creates false promise of picking a side" and "this proves that system is objectively flawed" and you're definitely proving you know what objective means. And "removing affinities from trees gives higher chance of having more variety in builds" is a good example of a "fact." And all of these things in isolation are the point, and not the conclusions they were used to reach. This is a good faith argument and you're someone who should be taken seriously. 

[Frosty_Mentos]

For the snail pace that Klei works while adding a whole lot of content in each update especially now in giant bundles I think that it'll take a while for them to develop properly how they want planar damage and skills combined with them into.

Whatever they got in plans is something we will see in the future than the present, because planar damage right now is a whole lot of nothing but just fancier 'damage'.

Skill tree part... It's a whole different issue for me in a sense that it should instead save per world instead of save per profile, but maybe they want us to have all those powers regardless cause leveling each character would take forever anyway (unless time skipping). What they could do with Insight is that ALL character you got get a point for just playing, and it would scale with your activity per world and the things you do to get them. It would make most sense and improve gameplay to remind you that you got only this much right now, but you will gain immense power if you got the knowledge to reach it quick.

[Faintly Macabre]

P.S.:

3 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

It seems you don't know how Wormwood's affinities work, and what is fundamental difference compared to others.

Since you didn't seem to think it worth explaining, I have to guess from your mentioning Wormwood that you're talking about his bonus damage to shadow creatures? Which he actually doesn't get until you've spent a point on one of his affinity skills. Which you can't put points into unless you've beaten CC.

Cheers!

[Uedo]

17 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

Very strange arguments
Their project yes, but they make it for us to play, not for themselves. If any of us doesn't like anything, we are free to say that and ask for a change. At the end of the day, it's not like we have the final say in anything anyway
My aim is just that, point out what i don't like. And in this particular case, i think it's not a just a matter of personal taste and dislike, but a flawed system. As i said, prove me wrong. I mean, if you like it it's not enough, you should at least say why you like it

Totally, you win. well done, everything should be for you and your tastes, even things you had no contribution in creating.

[Mortalbane]

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Cheers!

Yeah, this is just what i was waiting to hear from you, "your opinion is wrong and thus should be disregarded", a common phrase you can see on this forum. Says everything about a person who uses that. Just surprised how long it took for you to say it.
Move over, Germ! There is a new name on the ignore list.

1 hour ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Whatever they got in plans is something we will see in the future than the present, because planar damage right now is a whole lot of nothing but just fancier 'damage'.

True. Also i don't see why it had to be put on skill trees, except that they didn't have a better idea what to put in there. I mean, you have those armors and weapons, what other source of planar damage do you need. Abilities not tied to weapons? Make new crafts for them, like lunar lighter. That would create a better sense of progression.

1 hour ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Skill tree part... It's a whole different issue for me in a sense that it should instead save per world instead of save per profile, but maybe they want us to have all those powers regardless cause leveling each character would take forever anyway (unless time skipping). What they could do with Insight is that ALL character you got get a point for just playing, and it would scale with your activity per world and the things you do to get them. It would make most sense and improve gameplay to remind you that you got only this much right now, but you will gain immense power if you got the knowledge to reach it quick.

I also always said that skill trees should be reset to zero in a new world, especially with those built-in progressions, like "do this a little better" and "do this much better".
I don't think it's a good idea to be leveling up all characters at the same time regardless of who you play. Simply reduce the time to get all 15 points.

About connecting skill point with activities, it is another thing i've been talking about all the time. I see it like character Mastery branch, or veteran branch, or whatever, skills in which would be unlocked after doing things N times, like achievements. To improve or ease those activities.

[Uedo]

17 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

As i said, prove me wrong. 

It's not really a prove you wrong situation, I can totally just say you're right if it'll satisfy you? I've no qualms with that at all. 

Again though, it's not really a helpful conversation at this point - I guess the only reason I engaged with this was because it seems a bit fruitless at this moment in time? I completely get that you wouldn't get to see the direction Klei ended up going until they actually did it, so it's obvious WHY you raise it now, but if we're just wishing for stuff .... you know? You seem to know this topic achieves little based on your post, so why you poking the bear my dude?