Affinities are a mistake. Prove me wrong

[Mortalbane]

I have a lot of issues with how skill trees are made. In this episode let's talk affinities.

I've edited the post to include more stuff

1. Planar damage can and should be tied to crafts, not to a skill tree

Why? Because of 2. and 3. - to create a better, uniformed system, which has room for effortless expansion if needed.
To free up space for skills that try to bring new builds, explore new roles/playstyles. There is no guarantee that removing affinities would help, but there is a chance. For example, Wolfgang's tree without affinities would be even more pathetic, so devs might feel more need to put more effort into exploring new stuff for him.

Everything that affinities do can be moved outside of skill trees.
Want x2 planar damage for Wolfgang? Make his passive work on planar weapons.
Want planar defense - make it a passive (like Wigfrid), or put onto the planar armor.
Want lunar flamethrower? Craft a lunar lighter. Make a lunar Bernie. A lunar Abigail flower. There always is a way to make a lunar/shadow item for a character, and most of the time you won't need to think hard.

When do you need that planar damage stuff? Only post rifts, when you will have materials.
Giving a bonus vs regular shadows makes early game easier, which for DS mentality is kinda not good, except for new players. But new players don't get affinities. Also, having bonuses vs shadows kinda makes the "choice" for us, because there is no need to have bonuses vs lunar.

This issue is about planar damage, but let's mention affinity abilities. If you want to give character an early-game ability, give it - doesn't have to be lunar or shadow. And lunar/shadow crafts can enhance that ability or change it, also giving planar damage.
I mean, for example, why Willow's signature move is lunar/shadow, isn't she a regular fire girl?

2. Affinity branches can't decide if they are post-rift or not

Some characters have their affinity available and fully unlocked (like Willow, Woodie or Wolfgang), some have it fully locked behind post-rift materials (Wigfrid), some are in between (Wilson and Wormwood).
Wormwood can fully unlock his affinities after killing only one boss, and can have all of the affinity skills at once (almost).
I don't see any system or logic.

People keep saying in the comments that this is not a problem. But it is - there is no uniformed system, skills are just used as a character re-rework, where underwhelming ones get buffs, while strong ones get nothing.
Characters are like people - we all are different, some are stronger, some are weaker, but we should at least have equal rights. That would be a system. Not when one character has everything available, one has everything locked until post-rifts, and one can skip a boss and have all skills at once.

3. Moon vs Shadow is limiting

Are you saying that there will be no new major arc with several new bosses, leading to a new mega boss? Like the Celestial Champion arc now.
No new content, no third power will ever show up? Like those entities form Gorge and Forge, looking to take part in the power struggle after CC and FW were killed. Or any new power entirely. Nothing like that in plans, only moon vs shadow for all eternity?

Thinking about characters who have yet to receive a skill tree, you limit yourself to moon and shadow too. What if it doesn't fit?

With affinity perks tied to crafts from new content, you are free to expand into the eternity.
With the current system, imagine skill tree 20 years from now - it would look like in Path of Exile. Of course you can say that i'm exaggerating, or that it could be re-reworked. But why not just make easily adjustable systems from the start. Systems where everything follows rules, with a few exceptions, like W-name convention. Not where every case is an exception, like with current affinities.

4. It is as if we are picking sides, but we are not

First, skills are unlocked after you kill a boss, and not after you give its loot to Charlie/Wagstaff. So, the Queen actually doesn't "reward your loyalty", and Cryptic Founder doesn't "reward your curiosity". it's more like you get the power by "absorbing the essence" of that boss.

Second, we can pick lunar affinity, kill shadow stuff, then use celestial portal, pick shadow affinity and kill lunar stuff. Doesn't look like picking a side.

Third, this "picking a side" is nothing but a flavor text on some skills. Charlie and Wagstaff don't care about us, and we don't care about them. The game offers literally no feeling of working for one of them.

And btw that flavor text in some cases doesn't even make sense. For example lunar Willow:
"The Cryptic Founder will reward your curiosity with the formula for lunar flames."
So, there is a formula for lunar flames? So does he hand you a custom-made lunar flamethrower? I'm sure Wilson would love to hear about lunar flame formula for his mighty 7 skill torch.
"Entreat the moon to strengthen Bernie's planar attack and defense, particularly against shadow enemies."
In second skill we suddenly don't need Wagstaff, and pray directly to the moon. After having just killed its champion.

_________________

Am i wrong? Maybe i don't see something important, why things are as they are.
I mean important, like why the current thing is better than what i'm saying. Not because "it is already done" or "it was a design choice". Those arguments are to why it won't be changed, but not to why it is better.
From where i stand, affinities seem like a mistake, that should be corrected now. Better to re-rework 6 characters now, than 18 later.

 

Suggestions
Solutions to all of the above are kinda self-explanatory. But not all, so i'll list some suggestions.

Remove affinities from the skill tree
This would solve issues 1, 2 and 3.
We are not aligning ourselves with the higher powers that are always present, so that we can have lunar/shadow skills from day 1.
For example, Willow can have a regular flamethrower as a skill.
Planar damage from affinities should be tied to crafts from post-rift materials. Like lunar lighter for Willow.
Also, more items = more skins to sell.

What can they be replaced with?
More regular skill branches, exploring new roles/playstyles. Preferably with some effort put into them.
Character mastery branches. For example, discover N hunting preys as Wigfrid, and you will have less tracks to investigate from now on.
Actually Wigfrid deserves a whole hunting branch with spear throw included, but this is an example nonetheless.

Create a better immersion for choice / story / moon vs shadow conflict
a) Edit the flavor text
So that we don't have hints to working for Charlie and Wagstaff, if in actual gameplay we are not.

b) Make a real choice
Complex but potentially very cool.
How is that a choice if we can undo it by going through the celestial portal? We can't undo rifts - it's a permanent change for this world.
So the choice could also be permanent for world. With a server vote, when someone starts it. Like, with lunar creatures replacing shadow creatures as a threat, if we choose Charlie.
I could talk a lot about how choice could be made, possible options and ways, possible mechanics and quests. But this post is big enough already, and i think you get the idea.
Make sure that we can't undo it, like with celestial portal. This is a kind of limit that increases replayability - a good limit. Arguably of course, there are arguments for being able to unlock and see everything in one go, but i'd prefer permanent choices for world. This also imo should apply to not being able to re-spec skill points via portal. So that there would be no "early game" or "switch" skills, which at some point lose all value. But this is kinda outside of the affinity scope.

[grm9]

42 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Third, this "picking a side" is nothing but a flavor text on some skills. Charlie and Wagstaff don't care about us, and we don't care about them. The game offers literally no feeling of working for one of them.

And btw that flavor text in some cases doesn't even make sense. For example lunar Willow:
"The Cryptic Founder will reward your curiosity with the formula for lunar flames."
So, there is a formula for lunar flames? So does he hand you a custom-made lunar flamethrower? I'm sure Wilson would love to hear about lunar flame formula for his mighty 7 skill torch.
"Entreat the moon to strengthen Bernie's planar attack and defense, particularly against shadow enemies."
In second skill we suddenly don't need Wagstaff, and pray directly to the moon. After having just killed its champion

when everything that's described in lore doesn't fully apply to gameplay (unfathomable)

42 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

First, skills are unlocked after you kill a boss, and not after you give its loot to Charlie/Wagstaff

multiple people can deal damage to the boss, but only 1 player can activate rifts per world

42 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Second, we can pick lunar affinity, kill shadow stuff, then use celestial portal, pick shadow affinity and kill lunar stuff. Doesn't look like picking a side

iirc celestial portal lore is whoever used it gets sent to another world

42 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Some characters have their affinity available and fully unlocked (like Willow, Woodie or Wolfgang), some have it fully locked behind post-rift materials (Wigfrid), some are in between (Wilson and Wormwood).
Wormwood can fully unlock his affinities after killing only one boss, and can have all of the affinity skills at once (almost).
I don't see any system or logic

it doesn't need to exist, arbitrary demand

42 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Planar damage can and should be tied to crafts, not to a skill tree

why? that's an arbitrary demand

42 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Moon vs Shadow is limiting

devs can still change stuff after adding it (unfathomable)

[ChintzyGnat]

Klei making a video game? (Unfathomable)

[Uedo]

I mean, I completely get where you're coming from. They're all elements Klei could explore but it looks like they're probably not going down that route. It's just a creative decision, so long as it's all cohesive in the end it'll make for a good narrative.

[lowercase skye]

1 hour ago, Mortalbane said:

Are you saying that there will be no new major arc with several new bosses, leading to a new mega boss? Like the Celestial Champion arc now.

No new content, no third power will ever show up? Like those entities form Gorge and Forge, looking to take part in the power struggle after CC and FW were killed. Or any new power entirely. Nothing like that in plans, only moon vs shadow for all eternity?

Why would new content necessitate allowing you to pick a third side? Why couldn't these other entities exist without the option to align yourself with them?

[Mortalbane]

1 hour ago, Uedo said:

it looks like they're probably not going down that route. It's just a creative decision, so long as it's all cohesive in the end it'll make for a good narrative

Well, yeah, it was a creative decision. Decision to shoot themselves in the foot. Both narrative- and gameplay-wise.
So far i don't see any pluses in that decision.

1 hour ago, finn from human said:

Why would new content necessitate allowing you to pick a third side? Why couldn't these other entities exist without the option to align yourself with them?

They could, they could not. A good system leaves room for expansion and plans ahead. This system seems not to.

[lowercase skye]

6 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

They could, they could not. A good system leaves room for expansion and plans ahead. This system seems not to.

If they really wanted to, they could easily add in a third alignment and just shift the other two to different parts of the skill trees. What kind of "good system" are you proposing exactly?

[Mortalbane]

1 hour ago, finn from human said:

If they really wanted to, they could easily add in a third alignment and just shift the other two to different parts of the skill trees.

Yeah, in another re-rework =)

1 hour ago, finn from human said:

What kind of "good system" are you proposing exactly?

At least the one that ties planar damage and special abilities to crafts, and puts them off the skill tree

[Valase]

I love how you mention affinities as the main topic in the title only to not mention what every single affinity has in common, nor offer an solution for this "problem".

I think that the forums need a new emote related to the affinities.

[Faintly Macabre]

Prove that you're right first. Not one little bit of this is self-evidently an actual problem.

[Mortalbane]

1 hour ago, Valase said:

I love how you mention affinities as the main topic in the title only to not mention what every single affinity has in common, nor offer an solution for this "problem".

Solution is literally in the first item of the list

[Anis5240]

4 minutes ago, Valase said:

offer an solution for this "problem"

well that's the point of the forums, eh? coming up with solutions together among fans

That said, the affinities are barely interesting themselves. Just 10% more damage for opposing foes, and 10% less damage gotten from the same foes (for most characters). I think it definitely would high up the stakes a bit if the opposing affinity enemies CAN also do more damage to you, but hey we all know how that would turn out.

[Mortalbane]

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Prove that you're right first. Not one little bit of this is self-evidently an actual problem.

Something tells me you are a fan of Wilson's skill tree

[Anis5240]

1 minute ago, Mortalbane said:

Something tells me you are a fan of Wilson's skill tree

Don't bother with the guy, that's all I'm gonna say.

Anyway @Mortalbane I do think it can be interesting to imbue the characters' specific items with the rift items (pure brilliance/pure horror/dreadstone) for rift stuff (and have the affinity perk unlocked). Just the question of HOW it gonna be implemented cuz we all know Klei is kinda garbage when it comes to coding some weird shenanigans.

[Faintly Macabre]

4 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Something tells me you are a fan of Wilson's skill tree

And something tells me you don't have an actual argument.

[Anis5240]

1 minute ago, Faintly Macabre said:

And something tells me you don't have an actual argument.

Hey, at least he had a solid thing to go on.

Wilson having to remain basic is such an old news, and even if you gonna spout this damn thing every time a Wilson thread comes out, the DS Wilson is still there. You CHOOSE TO ENGAGE WITH HIS SKILL TREE ALREADY CHANGES THE "BASE" GAME EXPERIENCE.

[Uedo]

2 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

Well, yeah, it was a creative decision. Decision to shoot themselves in the foot. Both narrative- and gameplay-wise.
So far i don't see any pluses in that decision.

 

Yeah, I mean, potentially. At the end of the day though, this is one of those things where it's Klei's creative project and not yours, it's not very constructive conversation. It's fine to express how you don't like it, but, like what's your aim here? 

[Wormboi]

10 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

well that's the point of the forums, eh? coming up with solutions together among fans

That said, the affinities are barely interesting themselves. Just 10% more damage for opposing foes, and 10% less damage gotten from the same foes (for most characters). I think it definitely would high up the stakes a bit if the opposing affinity enemies CAN also do more damage to you, but hey we all know how that would turn out.

I agree, If more affnities gave you a special power like willow's they would be more worth it.

[Faintly Macabre]

Just now, Anis5240 said:

Hey, at least he had a solid thing to go on.

Wilson having to remain basic is such an old news, and even if you gonna spout this damn thing every time a Wilson thread comes out, the DS Wilson is still there. You CHOOSE TO ENGAGE WITH HIS SKILL TREE ALREADY CHANGES THE "BASE" GAME EXPERIENCE.

Except that he didn't. He didn't explain why it matters whether or not planar perks are derived from crafts or skill trees, he didn't explain why affinity perks should only be pre or post-rift content, limits are not inherently bad, and there's nothing wrong with flavor for its own sake.

Also, stay on topic. If you still want to have it out about Wilson's skill tree after your embarrassing poll that wasn't nearly as one-sided as you expected, do it somewhere that it's actually relevant.

[Mortalbane]

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

And something tells me you don't have an actual argument.

I've listed my arguments. The system is flawed and pretty much unnecessary, only putting on limitations. Everything it does can be done through crafts, and skill trees should be used as god intended - to have various builds, roles and playstyles. This should be the main idea behind skill tree, not fix for a character or adding that planar stuff.
Lore-wise and choice-between-sides-wise also makes little sense.

[Faintly Macabre]

2 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

skill trees should be used as god intended - to have various builds, roles and playstyles.

You know what's a great and fundamental way to do that?

2 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

putting on limitations.

[Mortalbane]

1 hour ago, Uedo said:

it's Klei's creative project and not yours, it's not very constructive conversation. It's fine to express how you don't like it, but, like what's your aim here? 

Very strange arguments
Their project yes, but they make it for us to play, not for themselves. If any of us doesn't like anything, we are free to say that and ask for a change. At the end of the day, it's not like we have the final say in anything anyway
My aim is just that, point out what i don't like. And in this particular case, i think it's not a just a matter of personal taste and dislike, but a flawed system. As i said, prove me wrong. I mean, if you like it it's not enough, you should at least say why you like it

[Anis5240]

10 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

your embarrassing poll

But many still sided with me, and that's more than enough.

[Draggofroot]

Just wanna give a little input here. I think I like the affinities. It makes me feel like I'm more integrated into the ecosystem by relating to some of the creatures there. And the defense and damage bonuses aren't that bad either.

[Mortalbane]

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Except that he didn't. He didn't explain why it matters whether or not planar perks are derived from crafts or skill trees, he didn't explain why affinity perks should only be pre or post-rift content, limits are not inherently bad, and there's nothing wrong with flavor for its own sake.

Ok, i'll try to explain then
Why do we have affinity branches in the first place? They are locked behind killing bosses, which also happens to mark the start of post-rift content. So their main idea is to help with the new content. That's why they are filled with planar stuff. Does that alone give any builds, roles, playstyles? .Look at Wolfgang, for example. I don't want such affinity branches.

Why it matters that they are not on skill tree? So that we could have some actual skills there, worthy of spending points. Adding planar damage can be done outside of skill trees.

Why affinity should be only pre- or post-rift? First, to have a system. It's not like one character has 5 skills, and another has 30, they are more or less the same. Similarly, locking skills behind new materials should apply to all or to none, not at random. Why Wigfrid has nothing, while Willow enjoys flamethrowers? Why Willow gets no new crafts from new resources, while Wigfrid does?
Second, until you kill those bosses, your character has nothing to do with moon or shadow. Why Willow has cold flamethrower, if she hasn't met Wagstaff yet? How does that fit in her identity as a character, is she lunar? And don't say that she met him in a previous life, you know what i mean. After first playthrough Willow is suddenly a lunar character with lunar flamethrower. Would she craft a lunar lighter from brightshade - there would be no questions.

Did i explain now?

1 hour ago, Draggofroot said:

Just wanna give a little input here. I think I like the affinities. It makes me feel like I'm more integrated into the ecosystem by relating to some of the creatures there. And the defense and damage bonuses aren't that bad either.

Would any of it change if you had same bonuses/abilities not from a skill tree, but from crafted items?