Klei keeps good/bad skill trees ratio at 50/50

[Mortalbane]

So far, Willow, Woodie and Wormwood got some good and interesting skills, while Wolfgang, Wigfrid and poor Wilson... not so much.

(i decided to elaborate and provide arguments why i think some trees are good, and some aren't. It can be found below)

The story continues, with Winona looking extremely good, and Wurt looking like a mosquito that will again get slapped with a slipper of zero popularity.

Winona had her main problems fixed, which already is enough for her to see play. And on top of that she got some neat stuff.
Also nice to see that i've guessed at least one thing - socketing different gems into the generator leads to different effects =)
But even though i didn't see any other things that i wanted for Winona (like tool making or repairing tools/weapons with duct tape instead of clothes), i'm not worried for her at all.

Wurt, on the other hand... Like, nothing shown was good. Nothing but the Merm King working between shards now, but that i consider a fix.
Wurt's skills are like first shown Wormwood skills, when fruit flies attacked him instead of farm plants. I mean, great, but.. why?
Klei takes mosquitoes - the least interesting, least powerful, and most annoying thing in the swamp - and makes not one skill with them, but a whole branch. The sound alone is a neigh vote for using mosquitoes.
That remodeled Wendy's sisturn for merm spawning, is it needed? And if so, could it instead be a big totem, that affects all the merms, and not just in small radius.
Fertilizers made out of mosquitoes? You know what would help Wurt grow vegetables? A merm farmer.

 

Some Wurt suggestions
I see the two mentioned big branches as Feral and Civilized.

Feral would let Wurt embrace the fierce merm nature, make her a better warrior, better fishermerm, utilize that mentioned amphibious stuff. Maybe one mosquito skill, but perhaps one is too much. Maybe, add armor made out of tentacle spots, or different warpaint for different effects?
This branch could and should encourage living in the swamp, away from others.

Civilized, as the name implies, would instead focus on bringing merms into the society. Make fishermerms and farmerms, repair those dilapidated wild merm homes, make merms non-aggro towards players. Read books to merms.
Imagine a farmerm hut that you can build in a regular non-swamp base, and the farmerm would till the soil for you. No more hoes, no more asking Wormwood to plant. Simply amazing!
Or choose the path of war - make a few personal merm guards, arm them with tentacle spikes, build a totem that increases their respawn time. Healing them individually? Add mermedic? No thanks, why not just add some regeneration via that totem, not too strong, and be done with it.

Also, i think that that any Merm King related skills actually belong in the Feral branch. Cuz he is a lazy and demanding tyrant, much like the Pig King. And in Civilized i think that Wurt herself should be viewed as the leader, and those merm guards would be loyal to her.

 

Good skill trees (in my opinion)

1. Woodie
Has something to chose from in wereforms (at least between moose and beaver), has useful skills for early game, cheesy but kinda fun treeguards, and his affinities compliment the character.

2. Wormwood
Has some fun and useful skills in affinities, tries to provide variety for different playstyles.

3. Willow
Definitely brought back the forgotten character, and people seem to enjoy playing her. Though i personally don't enjoy her that much, i can see myself playing her.

Are those trees ideal? Well, depends on who you ask. For me no - if i would go in detail about every skill, i'd end up reworking most of the trees.
But at least they are fun, they do a better job at giving variety, new things they add don't feel out of place.

 

Bad skill trees (in my opinion)

1. Wigfrid
She already had early game equipment, why not add those perks to that, why add new stuff which is only a little bit better (without skills i mean).
Why throw the basic spear and shield out of the window, instead of upgrading them into the new items?
Shield as the only weapon, because DS equipment system couldn't find a way to use two hands? Couldn't make a single item that gives both weapon and shield when equipped? This is just meh. Also shield cooldown feels too long for me to be useful.
Wigfrid is literally the last character who needs a beefalo. Not to mention that we still can't see their hp, and the taming process still is very long and can be easily ruined.
Super lazy affinities.

What i would do for Wigfrid:
- since she can make those helmets for pigs, i'd make a Battle Commander branch. Lead a pig army, buff them with songs, have fun. Like, what they tried to do with Wolfgang, but fitting the character and the kit, and also complete and viable
- explore her hunting, since she loves meat so much. Perks for decreasing the required number of tracks or to better see them, higher chances of finding rare prey instead of koalefants, and of course throwing spears.
- maybe further exploring her hunting and equipment crafting to make equipment from all sorts of worthy beasts. Like weapons and armor made out of loot from hounds, worms, tallbirds, and so on - and from bosses too.

 

2. Wolfgang
You play Wolfgang to be Mighty and stay Mighty. Skills that punish that and reward being puny are bad. It's like making skills for Wendy that require to unsummon Abigail - who needs that?
His skill tree is only damage, damage and damage. There is so much room to explore variety, like making him a better tank rather than damage dealer, or being a true coach and buffing your teammates, or getting even better at chores and having higher stack size for items. But what was explored is out of place and lame, and nobody picks that.
Tried to fix the useless gym, but failed.
Also lazy affinities.

In my concept for Wolfgang, in addition to mentioned things, i reworked his mightiness to not require a separate indicator and to make it a little bit more useful. Also had better gym concept, and dumbbells replaced with a barbell, which could be used as a slow but mighty weapon with AoE.

 

3. Poor Wilson
Oh, the guy was so scammed with those skill trees. Like, having to spend seven skills on a torch, so that said torch is still worse than the lantern (which you can acquire on day 1).
In DST nothing indicates that he is a "starting character", and nothing justifies him having such an awful tree. I mean, if others had similar trees, it wouldn't be awful. But they don't.
Also storing food in the beard is gross. Same genius-level idea as to add dead children into the game for Wendy.

In my rework Wilson is a true alchemist, and beside transmutating stuff he can make alchemical goop, which is highly flammable. So, this goop can be applied to torches (and given to allies), thrown at monsters to increase the fire damage they take, and used as a very good fuel. Like, one skill that is better that Wilson's whole branch.
He had elixirs with fun effects, such as ability for anyone to grow a beard, or the one that can make a crop to instantly turn into giant.
The other branch was about pseudoscience, dabbling in the stuff you get from the ruins.
And all Wilson's creations and elixirs could misfire or backfire, to create the feeling of being a mad scientist.

Are my trees better than Klei's? Not necessarily. They just show that all skill trees should suit the characters and expand them in the right directions, while also trying to be fun, have variety and meaningful skills. Having more that one viable builds, and no dead skills.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[chirsg]

Wigfrid is happy with the elding spear full tree. With that alone, it's a good skill tree. I don't really expect klei to strike gold every time. The mosquito skill tree for wurt looks really suspect. I hope other perks she has carries the entire tree.

[Cheggf]

Wigfrid & Wilson's skill trees are much better than Willow's.

[Antynomity]

The mosquito items feel like the mushroom hat from the last update but tied to a skill tree for some reason.

[Evelo]

I fully believe items and core abilities should not be tied to skills. I still dislike the system but we are stuck with it now, so might as well make it enjoyable.

I still feel Willow's is horrible as all of her unique abilities are tied to it rather than giving her a true re-refresh. But whatever. I am voicing my disdain to a void.

[CuteC]

2 hours ago, chirsg said:

Wigfrid is happy with the elding spear full tree. With that alone, it's a good skill tree.

Do not speak for me, I very much still hate Wigfrid's skill tree as the one char I play 90% of the time.

I am afraid Wurt may also get a skill tree that has nothing to do with her identity.

[arubaro]

4 hours ago, chirsg said:

Wigfrid is happy with the elding spear full tree. With that alone, it's a good skill tree. I don't really expect klei to strike gold every time. The mosquito skill tree for wurt looks really suspect. I hope other perks she has carries the entire tree.

The tree is kinda awful. More when you play with new people and see how limited are the choices. And dont make me talk about her unispired and lazy affinity perks...

[Jakepeng99]

3 hours ago, Antynomity said:

The mosquito items feel like the mushroom hat from the last update but tied to a skill tree for some reason.

Exactly. They could make them a craft for everyone.

[chirsg]

3 hours ago, CuteC said:

Do not speak for me, I very much still hate Wigfrid's skill tree as the one char I play 90% of the time.

I am afraid Wurt may also get a skill tree that has nothing to do with her identity.

 

1 hour ago, arubaro said:

The tree is kinda awful. More when you play with new people and see how limited are the choices. And dont make me talk about her unispired and lazy affinity perks...

Do either of you not like the spear?

[Echsrick]

im out of date, but mosquitoes? that sounds like......not worth like ever, they are litteraly worthless, if klei realy wants to give wurt that part of the skill tree, im sure like more then 90% are probably not realy goin to use them, just like wilsons torch skill tree, its a begginers trap of sorts

[BezKa]

They are all bad. And they will only get worse, either the new ones will be not good enough or overpowered enough to cast the ones you deem good now into meh category. Kind of like we knew would happen from the beginning.

 

I am happy for Merm King working between shards though.

[AliceShiki]

I wanna say I like Wigfrid's shield! Really cool item!

The rest of the skill tree did feel kinda meh though (well, I like the Commander's Helm, and I like extra Duration on Battle Helm too, I'll say)... Like, the Spear is cool, but requiring 2 Volt Goat horns is like... I need to kill 8 Volt Goats on average to make it? That sounds like a big cost (unless I missed some other way of getting the horns).

And then the first upgrade for the Spear is hilariously bad without the second upgrade... And said second upgrade is only useful if you're doing endgame content that lets you enhance the spear.

So like... Wigfrid has the usual Planar choice thingies, 2 Spear upgrades that are only useful with Endgame stuff. Planar Resistance (and helm upgrade that gives Planar Resistance) that are also useful only with endgame stuff... That's 5 skills locked behind doing endgame stuff... That felt kinda bad to me tbh. I prefer the skill trees that have only 1 endgame skill, and the rest are generically useful, since they feel more new-player friendly.

But that's basically my only complaint about it. Overall, I like Wigfrid's skill tree. Especially the shield! I love that shield!

[flamboyant wolf]

2 hours ago, chirsg said:

 

Do either of you not like the spear?

Now, personally? I love the spear. I love the shield even.

However, I'm pretty sure that when people say they dislike the tree, it's likely because of the lack of actual choice, or because there are certain skills they don't see fit, or maybe cause they don't like the overall design/direction of the tree.

Elding spear is nice, but it's just one item/3 skill points. It's not like it's flawless either, people can still dislike it, and that's ok! But that's why there must be actual choices and options in the skillset for it to be good.

Personally, I still like the Wigfrid's skill tree for what it adds, but that's just what it is at the moment, basically an add-on to Wigfrid, with barely any choices and customization. 

[arubaro]

5 hours ago, chirsg said:

 

Do either of you not like the spear?

I like it but imagine a noob not having use for 1/3 of her skill tree plus the beefalo branch 

I think skill trees should be more versatil. If not they just feel like adding perks with extra steps

[Mortalbane]

I've edited the post to include my opinion on the rest of the skill trees

[AliceShiki]

I'll never understand the hate for Wilson's skill tree tbh.

The starting character gets torch perks to help newbies out because they dunno how to make lanterns... Sounds good to me.

Then he gets a bunch of transmutation perks that can help you access resources you need more at will. A simple and straight-forward way of helping newbies out.

Then there is the beard stuff that helps newbies survive Winter more easily and also gives extra backpack slots, which tend to be very necessary for newer players (and even more experienced players can probably appreciate those too).

... And then there is the usual alignment stuff.

It just feels like a perfect newbie skill tree to me? Nothing is particularly incredible, but all of it can make a new player experience easier, and a handful of things can also be useful for experienced players too (like basically every gem-related transmutation). It seems perfect for what it's set out to do? Wilson doesn't need to be a good character for experienced players in the first place. It just needs to be as simple as possible to let new players learn the game without needing to worry about character gimmicks.

[Mortalbane]

1 hour ago, AliceShiki said:

I'll never understand the hate for Wilson's skill tree tbh.

Stop viewing Wilson as the newbie character, and you will start understanding.
Nothing in DST indicates that Wilson is for new players. He was in DS, but not in DST.
Newbie characters don't have gem transmutations.
When new players poke around the characters, they usually stop at Wendy, and not at Wilson.

1 hour ago, AliceShiki said:

The starting character gets torch perks to help newbies out because they dunno how to make lanterns... Sounds good to me.

Yeah, don't know how to make a lantern, but they know what an iridescent gem is.
Also, if the goal is to learn, why would they learn to craft lanterns or winter clothes, if they have skills that replace them?

If you still don't understand after this, i really don't know how else to explain =)

[Jakepeng99]

6 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Stop viewing Wilson as the newbie character, and you will start understanding.
Nothing in DST indicates that Wilson is for new players. He was in DS, but not in DST.
Newbie characters don't have gem transmutations.
When new players poke around the characters, they usually stop at Wendy, and not at Wilson.

Yeah, don't know how to make a lantern, but they know what an iridescent gem is.
Also, if the goal is to learn, why would they learn to craft lanterns or winter clothes, if they have skills that replace them?

If you still don't understand after this, i really don't know how else to explain =)

Alot of Wilson skills like transmutations are kinda useless for noobs which is contradicting. Too confusing.

[Mortalbane]

1 hour ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Alot of Wilson skills like transmutations are kinda useless for noobs which is contradicting. Too confusing.

True.
I don't get why people see Wilson as a character for new players. You see 15 (or how many are unlocked from start) characters, with no indication that this one you should start with.
Cuz he has no meaningful downsides? Well, then pick Wolfgang. When not fed and not trained, he is basically a Wilson, but when fed and trained, he is x2 better.

[mkemal23]

20 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

A simple and straight-forward way of helping newbies out.

This game does not need a tutorial mode or a tutorial character. 

It's understanble why some people want him to stay as a blank character, sometimes you don't want to play with flashy abilities. But this still does not justify his Ultra unfun skilltree.

Especially considering what klei stated for other characters.

20 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

.. And then there is the usual alignment stuff.

It just feels like a perfect newbie skill tree to me?

Yup, especially the part where it says "go kill god" is really helpful for newbies, lol.

[Mortalbane]

Also, if there is a newbie character beside Wendy - it's Wigfrid. I mean, with that hp and sanity regen, increased damage, good and cheap equipment from start, what else can you ask for.

But the point is not who is for new players and who isn't.
The point is that every character should have a good, interesting, meaningful skill tree, with some options to choose from and have different builds.
Cuz that is the point of skill trees in other games, why would DST be any different

[Mysterious box]

Yep wendy is the noob character and is what is always recommended she has a permanent follower with no upkeep, a huge sanity gain altar, no sanity loss from night,  and her lowered damage matters not to someone who isn't going to be fighting bosses like a new player.

[Kwaik]

Wolfgangs skilltree isn't fun or interesting, but it is good 

 

Wigfrids is quite solid, albeit completely carried by her new weapon 

Wurts sound like crap, and it's 100% legitimate to be worried about. But let's be fair and realize they haven't actually shown us the majority of it. 

 

If you looked at the early version of wormwoods skill tree it was garbage, but people are generally very happy with it 

[mkemal23]

1 minute ago, Mortalbane said:

True.
I don't get why people see Wilson as a character for new players. You see 15 (or how many are unlocked from start) characters, with no indication that this one you should start with.
Cuz he has no meaningful downsides? Well, then pick Wolfgang. When not fed and not trained, he is basically a Wilson, but when fed and trained, he is x2 better.

Becuase (unfortunately) Klei is using Wilson as a budget tutorial character since he is the "Steve" of Don't starve.

They slap his face everywhere and make his gameplay as braindead as posible to lure new players in. And they add **** ton of bloat to other characters to hook those players even more. I mean good for them, in the end it's just a job but still, It breaks my heart that we waited four years to get a even worse version of Winon- Oh...

[AliceShiki]

40 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Stop viewing Wilson as the newbie character, and you will start understanding.
Nothing in DST indicates that Wilson is for new players. He was in DS, but not in DST.
Newbie characters don't have gem transmutations.
When new players poke around the characters, they usually stop at Wendy, and not at Wilson.

It's the first character in the list, and it's the most barebones one, and it's also the character that shows up first when you look at the game's steam page, videos and etc.

It's clearly meant to be the starting experience. Do you really think people don't go, "I dunno what character to pick, so I'll just pick the first one"?

And yes, gem transmutations are not for new players. They're the things for experienced players in Wilson's skill tree.

As for the Wendy comparison, that's different. If a player asks for advice on what character to pick when starting, they'll often be suggested to play with Wendy, but that's not something they'll intuitively get to... But yes, Wendy is also a good tool for newbies, as the newbie won't have to worry too much about combat while playing Wendy.

44 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Also, if the goal is to learn, why would they learn to craft lanterns or winter clothes, if they have skills that replace them?

Because they'll be able to have an easier time with those skills that ease their way as they play.

Then, when they go into other characters, they'll start feeling the difference that those skills make, so they'll realize that it's probably a good idea to look for items that provide a similar function.

Also, if they have built-in insulation with the beard (and beard skills) the new players will be able to focus more on the aspects of dealing with the Winter's food gathering at first, so they'll have an easier time adapting to it (because yes, while killing spiders is all you really need for Winter, newbies don't know that, and they'll suddenly be surprised by how they can no longer get berries and carrots to sustain themselves) because they'll have less things to focus on at first.

36 minutes ago, mkemal23 said:

This game does not need a tutorial mode or a tutorial character. 

If you want a good level of new player retention, you definitely want a character (or a few characters) that are easier to get into than others.

The first character in your character list in particular should be as new-player focused as possible, even if it means this character will have no meaningful appeal for experienced players.

38 minutes ago, mkemal23 said:

Yup, especially the part where it says "go kill god" is really helpful for newbies, lol.

Yes, I did say some parts of the skill tree were aimed at experienced players, like the gem transmutations and the alignment stuff. I don't get why you and Mortalbane brought that up as a "gotcha" when I already stated that in my previous post.

34 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

it's Wigfrid. I mean, with that hp and sanity regen, increased damage, good and cheap equipment from start, what else can you ask for.

Eating berries, seeds and carrots, for one. Because newbies won't feel very comfortable relying a lot on Cooked Monster Meat.

36 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

The point is that every character should have a good, interesting, meaningful skill tree, with some options to choose from and have different builds.
Cuz that is the point of skill trees in other games, why would DST be any different

Because different characters are aimed at different portions of the playerbase?

I doubt people will start feeling like Wurt's skill tree is interesting and meaningful if they don't like playing with followers, for example. No matter what is there in the skill tree.

And if they prefer focusing on the survival aspect of the game, and on building/decorating a base, they also won't see anything interesting in Wigfrid's or Wolfgang's skill tree, as those are combat-focused.

And if you don't like the gimmick of Woodie's transformations, you also won't see anything particularly meaningful or interesting in his skill tree either.

Wilson just so happens to be focused at new players, so the skill tree is good, interesting and meaningful for new players, even if most things there are bad for experienced players, and they don't look very interesting or meaningful for experienced players either. That's not a problem with the skill tree, it just points to you not being its target audience.