When are we fixing the bosses?

[Gi-Go]

All I wanna say is fuelweaver is already nearly perfect. The only thing I would have changed is the shadow creatures spawning. They aren't welcome, but you have to go insane at some point. 

All shadow creatures instantly die when the portal is shaking after you beat fuelweaver, but for some reason not during the fight itself when it would actually help. There is an insanity attack already we don't need this nasty rng crap with annoying mobs that some times can't even figure out if you are insane or not. 

If you want the experience fight with cage gone, you can just use the thurible or whatever it's called from previous fuelweaver fight and see how that will go. It makes a fight a joke more so than the brightshade staff. 

[grm9]

40 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

All I wanna say is fuelweaver is already nearly perfect. The only thing I would have changed is the shadow creatures spawning. They aren't welcome, but you have to go insane at some point. 

All shadow creatures instantly die when the portal is shaking after you beat fuelweaver, but for some reason not during the fight itself when it would actually help. There is an insanity attack already we don't need this nasty rng crap with annoying mobs that some times can't even figure out if you are insane or not

they're capped at 1 nightmare and terrorbeaks don't spawn if you're above 10% sanity, so it isn't RNG if you have sanity food, you're accepting RNG by doing a 0 sanity fight though, otherwise nightmare amulet, sanity food etc. would've been mostly pointless because you can go to somewhere with no woven shadows close enough to the way for them to reach FW and far enough from FW for him to not hit you or teleport before it gets fully applied 

[Cheggf]

7 hours ago, Ridley said:

There is no intended puzzle to something like Bee Queen

Do something to prevent the Grumble Bees from being a problem, then attack the queen.

7 hours ago, Ridley said:

and Toadstool

Decide the way that you think would best allocate your time to maximize DPS against Toadstool while keeping hazards to an acceptable level.

7 hours ago, Ridley said:

What I think should happen is that bosses start off designed for a singleplayer fight, but enraging to a higher difficulty levels depending on damage taken per second (Like Dragonfly's stun mechanic). They then look different, have new attacks to mix in, gain appropriate stat buffs, and drop higher amounts of their loot as reward (not new loot!). This allows for a tight singleplayer fight, the prevention of boss melting, better distribution of boss loot in multiplayer, incentive to bring friends to the fight without requiring them, a challenge for vets to solo enraged bosses (some might call it a puzzle), and a system that avoids punishing uncoordinated groups of survivors with low dps.

Now people get mad that they're being punished for doing too much damage with a harder fight.

[Popian]

13 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

That's how my brain works, I compare myself to other players and that is why I try to get better and waste less time.

Comparing what one person can do to multiple isn't very fair. Of course more would get done if you matched the total time that the others put in. The only way to compete with that in the same amount of time is to put your effort into finding others to play with, keeping in mind that most may not play the same as you do.

And if you think about it, it's more efficient for more people to split up into groups of ~2-4 for bosses so they can cover more ground. In the end they run out of content to play with sooner outside of grinding resources for others.

7 hours ago, Ridley said:

There is no intended puzzle to something like Bee Queen

But there is the relative aggro timing and distance so you can save on armor and healing? It's something that can be figured out by observing.

6 hours ago, Ridley said:

Can one player in a team even aggro all the lavaes?

Because Dragonfly tends to move too fast to hit between ponds, it's best for the others to assist in killing all but the last Lavae if you want to do the kiting (can still contribute damage between dodges) not that there's much benefit to that unless you want to bypass enraged form with health triggers.

[00petar00]

23 hours ago, grm9 said:

you don't need to practice to do most BQ strats, practice only really applies to stuff like FW and CK without AoE/teleportation/nightmare amulet/ice staves, which you don't need to do, you can get weather pains/bees and ice staves and brightshade staff and nightmare amulet

This just shows how you have no understanding of the playerbase, most players die regularly to bosses, especially on the first few attempts.

How can you actually say that an average player can kill a boss on first try? This makes no sense.

23 hours ago, grm9 said:

the point was that it's like complaining about the game punishing you for not learning instead of saying that the game becomes easier after you learn more

At the same time game difficulty becomes a joke with 3+ players but the whole point of raid bosses and hp buffing from singleplayer DS is for multiplayer and the funny part is that only solo players are punished.

On 5/6/2024 at 1:10 PM, grm9 said:

why are they unfair? define unfair, since if unfair means that you can't counter it, then that's misinformation, and if you mean that people can't know about stuff, then they can except stuff like bone cage dodge that doesn't have a clue or an indication about it existing

What I see as unfair is minion summoning abilities that a solo player can't beat without using specific strategies or pan flute, most bosses are made to offer a window of opportunity for player to deal damage but unless you use a specific method, you can't do that as a solo player on some bosses.

On 5/6/2024 at 1:10 PM, grm9 said:

do you think that only a few people have fun when fighting dfly without walls/BQ with lunar fire/shadow prison/spell that ignites everything nearby or figure out new strats for it on their own?

I don't really care If there's a few hundred of players which I don't even think there is that many that do that regularly, the point is that you are a minority of the playerbase so the game shouldn't cater to you on something that impacts everyone else.

How is BQ bunnymen method considered as a perfect solution for a terrible mechanic? It just proves that the boss fight is terrible for solo players that they use bunnymen to farm BQ because it drops some of the best loot in the game.

On 5/6/2024 at 1:10 PM, grm9 said:

so because the devs are making the game worse, they should make it even worse?

It will become worse If it keeps going in this direction and nothing is done to make bosses more solo friendly before removing the specific methods players use.

On 5/6/2024 at 1:10 PM, grm9 said:

it's extremely funny that you're complaining about it now considering that no one did that previously even though wolfgang and FW were in the game 7 years ago, that's an extremely unrealistic scenario that only got used in a seeded speedrun

I always knew that it was possible and that bosses were a joke in multiplayer but didn't see it done so easily. There's nothing funny about it, it was terrible since release and maybe I didn't  have that view 7 years ago but I did for at least 4-5 years when I put more thought into it.

Why does it matter If it is a speedrun or not? I didn't even care to look at the time and anyone can do it on any server, the boss fight will be just as easy but it will take longer.

On 5/6/2024 at 1:10 PM, grm9 said:

that's a 2nd option

Damage multiplayer being considered an option for a boss fight just proves my point.

 

[grm9]

4 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

most players die regularly to bosses, especially on the first few attempts

how? how do they die when using bramble husk/abigail/bunnymen/pan flute/catapults strats unless they simply didn't bring as much stuff as they need?

5 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

At the same time game difficulty becomes a joke with 3+ players but the whole point of raid bosses and hp buffing from singleplayer DS is for multiplayer and the funny part is that only solo players are punished

they got what they wanted, bosses were laughable in DS with 1 player and now they are in DST with 3 players, i wish DS bosses were interesting too

6 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

What I see as unfair is minion summoning abilities that a solo player can't beat without using specific strategies or pan flute, most bosses are made to offer a window of opportunity for player to deal damage but unless you use a specific method, you can't do that as a solo player on some bosses

why is that unfair? how else are puzzle bosses supposed to work? what's the problem with needing to spend resources on getting a lot of useful stuff?

7 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Damage multiplayer being considered an option for a boss fight just proves my point

it doesn't, for some reason you were telling me that i should play dark souls even though there's only 1 strat for bosses there and they can all be killed even when using a fist, but you want to turn DST bosses into that?

9 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

only solo players are punished

how are they punished? by getting the ability to have fun when fighting bosses/figuring out strats for them instead of killing everything by mindlessly holding F?

9 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

don't really care If there's a few hundred of players which I don't even think there is that many that do that regularly, the point is that you are a minority of the playerbase so the game shouldn't cater to you on something that impacts everyone else

you don't have any statistics and everyone can use brightshade staff, pan flute, bees etc.

10 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

How is BQ bunnymen method considered as a perfect solution for a terrible mechanic? It just proves that the boss fight is terrible for solo players that they use bunnymen to farm BQ because it drops some of the best loot in the game

why is using bunnymen bad? that's 1 of more than 20 solutions for the puzzle, what's the problem with that?

what does 

11 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

solo friendly

mean? they're already more fun to fight and figure out strats for when playing solo in comparison to multiplayer

12 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I always knew that it was possible and that bosses were a joke in multiplayer but didn't see it done so easily. There's nothing funny about it, it was terrible since release and maybe I didn't  have that view 7 years ago but I did for at least 4-5 years when I put more thought into it.

Why does it matter If it is a speedrun or not? I didn't even care to look at the time and anyone can do it on any server, the boss fight will be just as easy but it will take longer

the point was that you're complaining about something that didn't happen until 7 years later and still didn't affect you in any way after it happened, why do you care about that being possible? stop caring about how other people play

[00petar00]

22 minutes ago, grm9 said:

how? how do they die when using bramble husk/abigail/bunnymen/pan flute/catapults strats unless they simply didn't bring as much stuff as they need?

Do you ever play with other players that aren't as experienced?

22 minutes ago, grm9 said:

why is that unfair? how else are puzzle bosses supposed to work? what's the problem with needing to spend resources on getting a lot of useful stuff?

Because the fight is designed for multiplayer and you are bypassing that requirement by using specific strats that require much more resources or skill on the player's part.

22 minutes ago, grm9 said:

it doesn't, for some reason you were telling me that i should play dark souls even though there's only 1 strat for bosses there and they can all be killed even when using a fist, but you want to turn DST bosses into that?

From what I could tell is that the enjoyable part of the game for you is to test your limits and improve your skill, you can always limit yourself in these games. The thing is that not using a weapon in a game like that makes the fight more difficult, now you can decide not to use roll/iframes like you decide not to use specific items for boss fights in DST.

Using a fist is comparable to using axe or dark sword for example, it is your choice If you want to make the fight more difficult.

22 minutes ago, grm9 said:

how are they punished? by getting the ability to have fun when fighting bosses/figuring out strats for them instead of killing everything by mindlessly holding F?

Because the game is fundamentally designed for multiplayer and it shows with boss fights like toadstool, dragonfly and BQ. In multiplayer setting these bosses are a breeze but like I said the buffs bosses received to HP from singleplayer shows that they were made to be fought together and solo players need to put moch more effort or use unique strategy.

22 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you don't have any statistics and everyone can use brightshade staff, pan flute, bees etc.

I don't have stats but we both can connect to like 5 or even 10 random servers and see how people are faring with bosses because you seem to have no idea. I would bet money that we wouldn't find anyone doing dragonfly without walls.

22 minutes ago, grm9 said:

mean? they're already more fun to fight and figure out strats for when playing solo in comparison to multiplayer

I agree with you, most boss fights are more fun for me as a solo player after having multiple thousands of hours played but I am not the average player and I don't think that it is good for the game for it to be this difficult and punishing.

22 minutes ago, grm9 said:

the point was that you're complaining about something that didn't happen until 7 years later and still didn't affect you in any way after it happened, why do you care about that being possible? stop caring about how other people play

What didn't happen 7 years ago? Since release DST multiplayer boss fights have been a joke If the players on the server had any clue on what they were doing. We just didn't have the visual representation of 5-6 wolfgangs or Fuelweaver boss in the game. I have had similar thoughts about boss fights for years and have even mentioned boss HP scaling a few times.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, 00petar00 said:

Because the fight is designed for multiplayer and you are bypassing that requirement by using specific strats that require much more resources or skill on the player's part

how is that unfair? how does what the fight was designed for matter?

1 minute ago, 00petar00 said:

Do you ever play with other players that aren't as experienced?

yes, and i've only seen someone die against a boss once excluding people that tried to help while i was using a strat that they might've not even known about and those that got too close to dfly when exploring

2 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

From what I could tell is that the enjoyable part of the game for you is to test your limits and improve your skill, you can always limit yourself in these games. The thing is that not using a weapon in a game like that makes the fight more difficult, now you can decide not to use roll/iframes like you decide not to use specific items for boss fights in DST

ik about that, i've played those games but they're still not similar, you only have rolls, dps and sprinting to take away and there are no new strats to make other than dodging X attack without X by walking into a specific direction

4 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Using a fist is comparable to using axe or dark sword for example, it is your choice If you want to make the fight more difficult

that's not how DST works, most old bosses are largely puzzles, you're supposed to figure out what you should use instead of only using a weapon and expecting that to work and be as efficient as possible if you practice enough

6 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I don't have stats but we both can connect to like 5 or even 10 random servers and see how people are faring with bosses because you seem to have no idea. I would bet money that we wouldn't find anyone doing dragonfly without walls

that's a problem with the community, you still see people saying that weather pains/brightshade staff, nightmare amulet and lazy explorer/wortox are required for FW and that you can't use ham bat against toad, people use the 1st strat that they find, start thinking that it isn't fun/efficient and instead of trying to find a better strat, they complain on the forums about bosses being bad

8 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I am not the average player and I don't think that it is good for the game for it to be this difficult and punishing

most people seem to either not think about what are they doing wrong or think that they're supposed to be able to kill every boss by using only a weapon and get disappointed whenever they can't instead of trying to figure out how to do that with more than a weapon

9 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

What didn't happen 7 years ago? Since release DST multiplayer boss fights have been a joke If the players on the server had any clue on what they were doing. We just didn't have the visual representation or Fuelweaver boss in the game. I have had similar thoughts about boss fights for years and have even mentioned boss HP scaling a few times

FW existed 7 years ago iirc, ANR got released during 2024 - 7 = 2017 iirc and you still didn't say how does that affect you

[arubaro]

14 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

All I wanna say is fuelweaver is already nearly perfect. The only thing I would have changed is the shadow creatures spawning. They aren't welcome, but you have to go insane at some point. 

All shadow creatures instantly die when the portal is shaking after you beat fuelweaver, but for some reason not during the fight itself when it would actually help. There is an insanity attack already we don't need this nasty rng crap with annoying mobs that some times can't even figure out if you are insane or not. 

If you want the experience fight with cage gone, you can just use the thurible or whatever it's called from previous fuelweaver fight and see how that will go. It makes a fight a joke more so than the brightshade staff. 

Then what would be the point of FW having insanity aura and needing to manage going insane??

[Ridley]

12 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Do something to prevent the Grumble Bees from being a problem, then attack the queen.

The point isn't that the Grumbles are impossible to manage, but how the boss is really only made to be fought in a team, and solo is unreasonably difficult as a result. The difficulty plummets for every capable player fighting the boss. Why do people hail these bosses as good when they are just chumps against a team? Or rather, why can't the bosses be designed to create a challenging experience for the inexperienced and the veterans alike? I see people say things similar to, "The bosses are more fun in solo, they are too easy in multiplayer." Well since this is primarily a multiplayer game, why do those people defend a status quo that makes the multiplayer experience lesser to the singleplayer?

 

12 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Now people get mad that they're being punished for doing too much damage with a harder fight.

This depends on what the damage thresholds are set to. Stunning Dragonfly, which uses a damage threshold like what I purpose, is a rather high bar for one player or a bad group. Granny Wanda can't do it alone unless she tanks hits, so I don't see this being a real complaint. It should also soothe things over that the harder fights drop more loot.

[Cruvimaster]

What I'm sure is that it will be the most stressful period for developers, as it is not possible to please everyone and complaints will rain on the forum for each giant they change.

The simple fact of removing the exploit in AF has already caused around 200 repeated topics in the community. Imagine a design change in the other giants...

[grm9]

26 minutes ago, Ridley said:

Well since this is primarily a multiplayer game, why do those people defend a status quo that makes the multiplayer experience lesser to the singleplayer?

no one does, since no one suggests making them more fun for multiplayer anyway

26 minutes ago, Ridley said:

This depends on what the damage thresholds are set to. Stunning Dragonfly, which uses a damage threshold like what I purpose, is a rather high bar for one player or a bad group. Granny Wanda can't do it alone unless she tanks hits, so I don't see this being a real complaint. It should also soothe things over that the harder fights drop more loot

that'd also be bad because you'd need a high damage multiplier/minions to get more loot out of fights and damage multipliers would be worthless if x2.6 damage will also trigger x2.6 hp

26 minutes ago, Ridley said:

why can't the bosses be designed to create a challenging experience for the inexperienced and the veterans alike?

they already are, you can get brightshade staff if FW is too hard for you or kill it with only a weapon, sanity food, insanity food and armor

[Capybara007]

There are things that are objectively bad and nobody disagrees with which is what klei should focus

Misery toadstool drops

Crab king drops

Malbatross spawning

Changing literally anything else would make a lot of people upset even if i personally would agree with those changes

[Gi-Go]

5 hours ago, arubaro said:

Then what would be the point of FW having insanity aura and needing to manage going insane??

The mind control attack, hello? That's the whole reason you even need to go insane. So he could potentially stun you. 

[arubaro]

3 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

The mind control attack, hello? That's the whole reason you even need to go insane. So he could potentially stun you. 

Still, the danger of being insane is to be atacked by shadows made of nightmare fuel, would feel artificial to fight a boss made of fuel, called ancient fuelweaver, with the nightmare phase locked and not seeing any shadow at low sanity

Being atacked by shadows is more punishing than few seconds of stun. Even less when you can spam something like WP to prevent his healings during the stun or to telepuff to avoid the mechanic 

[Cheggf]

8 hours ago, Ridley said:

The point isn't that the Grumbles are impossible to manage, but how the boss is really only made to be fought in a team, and solo is unreasonably difficult as a result. Or rather, why can't the bosses be designed to create a challenging experience for the inexperienced and the veterans alike?

How are you supposed to create something that's as difficult for "veteran gamers" as it is for "the experienced"? Those are two entirely different groups. I like the difficulty in solo, yet you're saying that it's "unreasonably difficult". You aren't asking for it to be as difficult for me as it is for you, you're asking for it to be the difficulty you want, without any care for what I want. Fight the easier bosses if the harder ones are too hard, or do something to make the harder bosses easier like using minions, cheese, buffs, etc.

8 hours ago, Ridley said:

The difficulty plummets for every capable player fighting the boss. Why do people hail these bosses as good when they are just chumps against a team?

This is literally every boss and also every single mechanic, inherently, because the game is multiplayer.

8 hours ago, Ridley said:

I see people say things similar to, "The bosses are more fun in solo, they are too easy in multiplayer." Well since this is primarily a multiplayer game, why do those people defend a status quo that makes the multiplayer experience lesser to the singleplayer?

Because the thing you guys are proposing is even worse. Bosses should scale in multiplayer like they do with Klaus. Klaus summons the spells underneath the player's feet, and when he summons krampii he summons them on the player. Because of this, those things naturally get multiplied with more players. Klaus doesn't just do his boring autoattack until he sees that there's multiple players then he decides to start actually trying because before this he didn't actually care if he died for some reason, so now he's going to start casting spells. And also magically gain a lot of damage resistance for some reason.

8 hours ago, Ridley said:

This depends on what the damage thresholds are set to.

No it doesn't. If someone ever triggers something that they could perceive as "bad" because they were "doing too good", then they will complain about "being punished for doing well". Unless you're suggesting something that is impossible to achieve and may as well not be implemented, there will inevitably be people that complain about it.

I'd much rather they simply add more bosses of varying difficulties instead of essentially add entirely new bosses by reworking every single boss and giving it a weird trigger to start the different version of the fight with. And how would that even work with its health? If you got a boss to 2% health then accidentally triggered its frenzy is it at full health now and it's just infuriating and guaranteeing a loss against worse players who weren't expecting it? Does it not heal so nobody actually engages with the frenzy system and just gets bosses to 2% health before frenzying them to get the rewards without actually fighting the harder boss? How are you supposed to know this is a mechanic to begin with if the thresholds are high enough where it won't accidentally trigger? What if you want to fight the frenzied version without having enough DPS to trigger it? It's just worse in every way than simply adding more bosses instead of fake adding more bosses but hiding it behind this arbitrary system.

[AliceShiki]

Tbh, if Klei wanted to make things easier for solo players without making things easier/harder for multiple players, they'd probably ignore everything in this thread.

Instead, what they'd probably do would be to add a toggle in world generation (similar to how we have toggles for certain mechanics, like Wildfires and whatever), which lets you increase/decrease boss health... So if someone wanted bosses to have less health, they'd just change that in world generation and that would be that.

No need to do any specific mechanic that depends on the number of players or whatever, that sounds like too much trouble for something that will certainly get complaints no matter how it is implemented... A world gen toggle to make bosses squishier/tankier OTOH would solve the entire problem and that would be that.

I don't personally think it's necessary, but I also don't play solo, so I dunno. I just think it's the more logical solution Klei would go for if they wanted an update that makes things easier for solo players without affecting the people who prefer things the way they are.

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, AliceShiki said:

Tbh, if Klei wanted to make things easier for solo players without making things easier/harder for multiple players, they'd probably ignore everything in this thread.

Instead, what they'd probably do would be to add a toggle in world generation (similar to how we have toggles for certain mechanics, like Wildfires and whatever), which lets you increase/decrease boss health... So if someone wanted bosses to have less health, they'd just change that in world generation and that would be that.

No need to do any specific mechanic that depends on the number of players or whatever, that sounds like too much trouble for something that will certainly get complaints no matter how it is implemented... A world gen toggle to make bosses squishier/tankier OTOH would solve the entire problem and that would be that.

I don't personally think it's necessary, but I also don't play solo, so I dunno. I just think it's the more logical solution Klei would go for if they wanted an update that makes things easier for solo players without affecting the people who prefer things the way they are.

Solo players can already scale the boss' health down by doing things like using better weapons, using characters with higher damage multipliers, using buffs, using minions, using traps/catapults/etc, and so on. The game doesn't need ten billion world gen toggles for every single conceivable thing.

[AliceShiki]

1 minute ago, Cheggf said:

Solo players can already scale the boss' health down by doing things like using better weapons, using characters with higher damage multipliers, using buffs, using minions, using traps/catapults/etc, and so on. The game doesn't need ten billion world gen toggles for every single conceivable thing.

I mean, multiple players can also do all that you just said, so that's a non-argument.

That said, I'm not saying it's needed. I'm just saying that if Klei wanted to add something to make solo players' experience easier when compared to the current experience that is balanced around multiple players, they'd just add world creation toggles, because that seems like the simplest solution that won't bother anyone. It will just be a hassle on their end.

Also, if they wanted to avoid cluttering their world generation menu with this, they'd probably add an option to modify all bosses' HP at once instead of one different toggle for every single boss.

And again, I'm not saying it's needed. I'm just saying that it's a much more likely "solution" than anything else suggested on the thread, since it's something using the already built-in functions of the game and that won't bother anyone and will just be seen as a net positive by the community, as it either does nothing, or makes things better for the people who want different HP for bosses.

[Cheggf]

Just now, AliceShiki said:

I mean, multiple players can also do all that you just said, so that's a non-argument.

Multiple players can also use world generation settings.

[Hi.]

On 5/4/2024 at 9:39 PM, goldenpanda56 said:

Malbatross - Garbage to find, garbage and not guaranteed loot, and a messy and boring fight

I feel like malbatross is over hated. The bill is decent and it’s a really easy fight with an anchor. It’s not the best fight but it’s not the worst fight either. The only problem I really have with malbatross is the spawning  mechanics but it’s certainly not the worst boss to spawn.

[AliceShiki]

14 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Multiple players can also use world generation settings.

Yes, they can. And if they want to make things easier (or harder) for them... All the power to them?

But the discussion in question was about making bosses "fairer" for single players because they have to deal with increased HP pools that have only been increased due to it taking multiplayer into account... So a toggle to move those HP pools to a level that would be "acceptable" for Single Player would be a logical "solution" to this "problem".

Multiple players who want an easier time also being able to use it is just a part of the flexibility that toggles offer. Just like how people can turn off Wildfires or Antlion if they don't wanna bother with the annoyances of Summer. Up to them if they wanna make the game easier on themselves or not.

[00petar00]

15 hours ago, grm9 said:

how is that unfair? how does what the fight was designed for matter?

You keep repeating yourself. How is it not unfair that a multiplayer designed fight is unfair for solo players? When a group of players make a fight so easy compared to solo players?

Why do I have to repeat that these fights were designed for multiplayer and you yourself pulled code from dragonfly mentioning that "lavae should pick the closest player and imprint on them. This allows to pick a person to kite lavaes", If this isn't obvious enough I don't know what to say that would make you change your mind.

15 hours ago, grm9 said:

yes, and i've only seen someone die against a boss once excluding people that tried to help while i was using a strat that they might've not even known about and those that got too close to dfly when exploring

You have no idea what you are talking about, most players regularly die against bosses and  have no idea what to do. This seems like a lie or you never played on any random server seeing how players fare against bosses, especially using your strategies that are quite advanced that you won't almost ever find on pubs.

15 hours ago, grm9 said:

that's not how DST works, most old bosses are largely puzzles, you're supposed to figure out what you should use instead of only using a weapon and expecting that to work and be as efficient as possible if you practice enough

Not really, most seasonal bosses and even raid bosses you can fight with axe, the thing is that you don't want to increase difficulty that much but you argue that players should fight CK without ice staffs which is very contradictory because both increase difficulty by a lot.

15 hours ago, grm9 said:

that's a problem with the community, you still see people saying that weather pains/brightshade staff, nightmare amulet and lazy explorer/wortox are required for FW and that you can't use ham bat against toad, people use the 1st strat that they find, start thinking that it isn't fun/efficient and instead of trying to find a better strat, they complain on the forums about bosses being bad

This is just your personal opinion and If majority of the players are doing the same thing but you choose to do something else the problem lies with you and game shouldn't be balanced around players like you.

The main problem is that you practice bosses and spawn items and read code while majority of players won't ever do that so you find these boss fights very interesting when these players won't ever figure out the strategies you mention unless they watch a youtube video or read wiki/discord.

15 hours ago, grm9 said:

most people seem to either not think about what are they doing wrong or think that they're supposed to be able to kill every boss by using only a weapon and get disappointed whenever they can't instead of trying to figure out how to do that with more than a weapon

You can kill every boss using a weapon, it may require more armor or healing items but players that kill bosses for the first time use the same strategies for every boss.

15 hours ago, grm9 said:

FW existed 7 years ago iirc, ANR got released during 2024 - 7 = 2017 iirc and you still didn't say how does that affect you

How does it not affect me when klei is making HP pools very high because of multiplayer and I as a solo player have to have much more skill and resources for the same boss fight that a group of players can mow down without the boss being able to use any abilities?

I don't understand why do you bring up the timeframe when the same problem existed since DST release and anyone that put enough thought into it would've thought the same at that time.

14 hours ago, grm9 said:

no one does, since no one suggests making them more fun for multiplayer anyway

Fun and time invested are two different things. Players don't want to spend 20+ minutes gathering resources for boss to fail and do it all over again when the boss fight is going to be a few minutes. It is fun to you when you have so much experience in the game but most players don't have 200 or more hours played so they don't find it fun while they might find it fun in multiplayer where they can melt bosses and not need to farm as much.

6 hours ago, Cheggf said:

his is literally every boss and also every single mechanic, inherently, because the game is multiplayer.

So you agree that bosses are a joke in multiplayer but somehow it is fine to leave them in the current state because you a player with thousands of hours (even speedrunner?) finds them fun?

6 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Because the thing you guys are proposing is even worse. Bosses should scale in multiplayer like they do with Klaus. Klaus summons the spells underneath the player's feet, and when he summons krampii he summons them on the player. Because of this, those things naturally get multiplied with more players. Klaus doesn't just do his boring autoattack until he sees that there's multiple players then he decides to start actually trying because before this he didn't actually care if he died for some reason, so now he's going to start casting spells. And also magically gain a lot of damage resistance for some reason.

What we are proposing is to make bosses as difficult for solo players as it is for multiplayer and I do think that they need to be easier for solo players even if the difficulty is increased for multiplayer because a lot of players can't kill bosses because they are too difficult for solo players or require a lot of resources.

6 hours ago, Cheggf said:

No it doesn't. If someone ever triggers something that they could perceive as "bad" because they were "doing too good", then they will complain about "being punished for doing well". Unless you're suggesting something that is impossible to achieve and may as well not be implemented, there will inevitably be people that complain about it.

I'd much rather they simply add more bosses of varying difficulties instead of essentially add entirely new bosses by reworking every single boss and giving it a weird trigger to start the different version of the fight with. And how would that even work with its health? If you got a boss to 2% health then accidentally triggered its frenzy is it at full health now and it's just infuriating and guaranteeing a loss against worse players who weren't expecting it? Does it not heal so nobody actually engages with the frenzy system and just gets bosses to 2% health before frenzying them to get the rewards without actually fighting the harder boss? How are you supposed to know this is a mechanic to begin with if the thresholds are high enough where it won't accidentally trigger? What if you want to fight the frenzied version without having enough DPS to trigger it? It's just worse in every way than simply adding more bosses instead of fake adding more bosses but hiding it behind this arbitrary system.

This makes no sense, playing multiplayer even 2 players will make a boss fight so much easier because they have limited abilities and have cooldowns between casting them so it isn't 1+1 but a multiplier since boss fights are made for solo players to have windows of opportunity to deal damage even though bosses are buffed for multiplayer.

Adding more bosses doesn't solve the issue because every boss has a specific loot table/items you can obtain and some are more valuable than others. It would be fine If for example bosses dropped specific currency like hamlet and you are able to buy anything and raid bosses gave more but since it isn't like that and bosses like BQ have the best loot, why would adding more bosses that are made for single player solve anything?

How are you supposed to know about so many mechanics that you bring up like evading bone cage or being able to position your boat for CK claws? How is a new player supposed to know that they need to use pan flute or catapults for BQ when they have never fought the boss? Why do you need to be able to trigger frenzied version when you don't have the dps? The whole point is that if you melt a boss down it becomes stronger. 

[grm9]

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

You keep repeating yourself. How is it not unfair that a multiplayer designed fight is unfair for solo players? When a group of players make a fight so easy compared to solo players?

Why do I have to repeat that these fights were designed for multiplayer and you yourself pulled code from dragonfly mentioning that "lavae should pick the closest player and imprint on them. This allows to pick a person to kite lavaes", If this isn't obvious enough I don't know what to say that would make you change your mind

how does what the fight was designed for matter? you still didn't answer, imo the fights ended up being boring in multiplayer and fun when playing solo, even if you think that they were designed for multiplayer, what were they designed for is irrelevant

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

You have no idea what you are talking about, most players regularly die against bosses and  have no idea what to do. This seems like a lie or you never played on any random server seeing how players fare against bosses, especially using your strategies that are quite advanced that you won't almost ever find on pubs

i did play on klei pubs some time ago and i've only ever seen death messages against AG and BQ once iirc, but those people could've simply not known that BQ requires more than a weapon and AG is a new boss so it's whatever, idk how did they die because of it

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Not really, most seasonal bosses and even raid bosses you can fight with axe

seasonal bosses are irrelevant and i don't want them to stay the way they are, toad requires either a torch or working multiplier, BQ realistically requires a flute so you don't just run from 1 end of the arena to the other during p2, FW requires sanity and insanity food unless you're gambling on nightmares RNG

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

the thing is that you don't want to increase difficulty that much

what was this about?

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

How does it not affect me when klei is making HP pools very high because of multiplayer and I as a solo player have to have much more skill and resources for the same boss fight that a group of players can mow down without the boss being able to use any abilities?

why do you care about how easy it is for other people? you can install a mod that decreases bosses' hp when playing solo if you want, since you're the host in that case

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

You can kill every boss using a weapon, it may require more armor or healing items but players that kill bosses for the first time use the same strategies for every boss

already responded to this, it's just absurdly inefficient when fighting most of them

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

I don't understand why do you bring up the timeframe when the same problem existed since DST release and anyone that put enough thought into it would've thought the same at that time

you're complaining about something that didn't happen for 7 years after it became possible and still didn't affect you in any way after it happened

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Fun and time invested are two different things. Players don't want to spend 20+ minutes gathering resources for boss to fail and do it all over again when the boss fight is going to be a few minutes. It is fun to you when you have so much experience in the game but most players don't have 200 or more hours played so they don't find it fun while they might find it fun in multiplayer where they can melt bosses and not need to farm as much

rollback if you don't like doing that or use strats that you can easily do 1st try e.g. brightshade staff and imo fighting them in multiplayer is boring

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

How are you supposed to know about so many mechanics that you bring up like evading bone cage or being able to position your boat for CK claws?

they should add a clue about dodging bone cage and you can see that claws can't go further than X tiles away from where they spawned and possibly figure out that you should go to where the least claws reach you

3 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

How is a new player supposed to know that they need to use pan flute or catapults for BQ when they have never fought the boss?

fight it once?

3 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Why do you need to be able to trigger frenzied version when you don't have the dps?

more loot

3 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

What we are proposing is to make bosses as difficult for solo players as it is for multiplayer and I do think that they need to be easier for solo players even if the difficulty is increased for multiplayer because a lot of players can't kill bosses because they are too difficult for solo players or require a lot of resources

can't tell me that FW with brightshade staff and CK with bees are unironically hard and you can get stuff for them again very quickly if you die 

[00petar00]

11 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you're complaining about something that didn't happen for 7 years after it became possible and still didn't affect you in any way after it happened

Why does this matter?

Since release of DST this was the issue. So what If there wasn't as much of a discussion about it at that time? (I believe people discussed HP issues at release too) Can't we discuss game's problems after some time or is there a time limit?

18 minutes ago, grm9 said:

i did play on klei pubs some time ago and i've only ever seen death messages against AG and BQ once iirc, but those people could've simply not known that BQ requires more than a weapon and AG is a new boss so it's whatever, idk how did they die because of it

So you acknowledge that bosses are difficult for players to fight for some reason argue that it is isn't? AG isn't a new boss and his rework has been a while ago.

12 minutes ago, grm9 said:

rollback if you don't like doing that or use strats that you can easily do 1st try e.g. brightshade staff and imo fighting them in multiplayer is boring

So because you cheat and use rollback to practice fights other players should be forced to play like that too? There's a reason new boss fights can be learned after 1-2 tries even though they are boring for being linear, if they didn't have some of these aoe/knockback mechanics they would be perfect.

14 minutes ago, grm9 said:

they should add a clue about dodging bone cage and you can see that claws can't go further than X tiles away from where they spawned and possibly figure out that you should go to where the least claws reach you

Sure, a player that is overwhelmed by a boss fight has the time to pay attention to distance of the claws.

15 minutes ago, grm9 said:

fight it once?

Fighting BQ once will tell a player that they need to use pan flute, catapults or bunnymen? Where are you finding these genius players that figure everything after one try?

15 minutes ago, grm9 said:

can't tell me that FW with brightshade staff and CK with bees are unironically hard and you can get stuff for them again very quickly if you die 

FW doesn't even need that many changes, what I am talking about is BQ, CK and DF mostly. I don't see the point of choosing a specific strategy like bees for CK and saying that boss fight is fine because that exists when players won't ever figure that out by playing the game and maybe want to have a fun and interesting boss fight which CK isn't for most players.