BLUYOLOMAN Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 Willow absolutely stinks in multiplayer. She is basically an anti-synergy for 3 of the characters and just sucks to fight with on everyone else. Let's talk Wurt and Webber, they rely on followers, all of which panic when on or nearby fires, y'see where I'm going with this? Fighting as Webber with a Willow is downright impossible as the spiders need to stay close to an enemy and panic all the time. Oh and let's not forget Willows AOE Lunar Flames (I can't test combustion on followers without it crashing), which decimate the followers of your allies. Wurt is a little better as the Merms dodge so they're not panicking all the time. And of course, Wormwood, I don't think I need to state why Wormwood is such an anti-synergy. If I do then get this: plant = flammable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabin Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 it's true, i was the spider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xhyom Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 Has this Willow ever tried not to throw fire during team fights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubicska Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 One thing they could do would be that players don’t receive fire damage from enemies set on fire by Willow with controlled burning unlocked Maybe someone has already said this before but I can’t remember who Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUYOLOMAN Posted December 5, 2023 Author Share Posted December 5, 2023 6 minutes ago, xhyom said: Has this Willow ever tried not to throw fire during team fights? That's LITERALLY her gimmick now. Throwing fire... Why should half of her new combat skills be useless in a multiplayer setting in a multiplayer game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubicska Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 2 minutes ago, BLUYOLOMAN said: That's LITERALLY her gimmick now. Throwing fire... Why should half of her new combat skills be useless in a multiplayer setting in a multiplayer game? Yeah you can kinda forbid setting enemies on fire when fighting as a team as Willow at the moment and that’s definitely not a good thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xhyom Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 5 minutes ago, BLUYOLOMAN said: That's LITERALLY her gimmick now. Throwing fire... Why should half of her new combat skills be useless in a multiplayer setting in a multiplayer game? She kind of... does other things besides throwing fire, she can light up fights, heat her allies, protect them from any shadows that might attack them and Bernie can even serve as an HP sponge to give her allies some time to breathe in some dangerous situation, she does not necessarily need to set enemies on fire in every situation, especially in one where she would harm allies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 I'm pretty sure part of the intent with Willow was to make her shine better solo, and struggle / be risky in team fights. Is that not in character with her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skile Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 11 minutes ago, BLUYOLOMAN said: That's LITERALLY her gimmick now. Throwing fire... Why should half of her new combat skills be useless in a multiplayer setting in a multiplayer game? One could argue she's more of a crowd control character, due to fire making mobs panic and 2 of her spells being most effective against crowds(combustion, lunar flames), however I'd say it still sucks to suddenly be unable to use, like, half of your character's gimmick, because it would actively hurt your team otherwise. I don't know what would be the best solution, as I do think it's kinda cool how fire still has this "risky", uncontrolled side, but just making controlled fire not dmg players would probably be the easiest solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUYOLOMAN Posted December 5, 2023 Author Share Posted December 5, 2023 11 minutes ago, xhyom said: She kind of... does other things besides throwing fire, she can light up fights, heat her allies, protect them from any shadows that might attack them and Bernie can even serve as an HP sponge to give her allies some time to breathe in some dangerous situation, she does not necessarily need to set enemies on fire in every situation, especially in one where she would harm allies It's kinda like if Winona's cannons hurt players so you had to be careful around them, which allows for HUGE griefing potential. But Winona does other things!! Like repair clothes and light up the place! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoKrampusSack Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 20 minutes ago, Shosuko said: I'm pretty sure part of the intent with Willow was to make her shine better solo, and struggle / be risky in team fights. Is that not in character with her? no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xhyom Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 2 minutes ago, BLUYOLOMAN said: It's kinda like if Winona's cannons hurt players so you had to be careful around them HUGE potential for griefing too. But Winona does other things!! Like repair clothes and light up the place! Winona needs to set down the catapults in stationary places wasting tons of resources, and that's like her whole kit, fire is like instant and free and works a bunch of situations, and as far as I know Winona decimates allies followers too, not sure tho. But if you have ever seen a Winona using spotlight you probably in the 0,003% players because there's literally no real use to that, to compare that with a mini-almost-free-starcaller and a manageable 3000 hp summon is really a stretch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUYOLOMAN Posted December 5, 2023 Author Share Posted December 5, 2023 1 minute ago, xhyom said: Winona needs to set down the catapults in stationary places wasting tons of resources, and that's like her whole kit, fire is like instant and free and works a bunch of situations, and as far as I know Winona decimates allies followers too, not sure tho. But if you have ever seen a Winona using spotlight you probably in the 0,003% players because there's literally no real use to that, to compare that with a mini-almost-free-starcaller and a manageable 3000 hp summon is really a stretch Well Winona was also just kinda a poor example on my part, since she does literally nothing cool at the moment compared to everyone else (besides Walter). But not being able to use fire as THE fire character is like whaaaaaa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalkanCockroach Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 31 minutes ago, Shosuko said: I'm pretty sure part of the intent with Willow was to make her shine better solo, and struggle / be risky in team fights. Is that not in character with her? I want bernie to have a suicide bomber tree. You stuff him with gunpowder or slurtle slime alternatively, but it's weaker. When you set him on fire, little guy booms and deals a lot of damage. Works on teammates too for funsies. 7 minutes ago, BLUYOLOMAN said: Well Winona was also just kinda a poor example on my part, since she does literally nothing cool at the moment compared to everyone else (besides Walter). But not being able to use fire as THE fire character is like whaaaaaa? You can use it. But your fellow survivors will hate you. 7 minutes ago, BalkanCockroach said: Sussy. DST was always a game that made you pay for your teammates actions. Also there are worse examples like water baloons on Wx. They can water baloon you while you are not noticing and that can cost you greatly depending on your circumstance. Or when Wicker spams full moons when woodie has shadow affinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 13 minutes ago, BalkanCockroach said: I want bernie to have a suicide bomber tree. You stuff him with gunpowder or slurtle slime alternatively, but it's weaker. When you set him on fire, little guy booms and deals a lot of damage. Works on teammates too for funsies. Is that a fair comparison to "fire makes things panic, so when Willow sets something on fire things panic" ? b/c really - its not all easy for Willow either. Its kinda funny b/c there is a thread about how monsters shouldn't panic for the full duration of fire "because panic is OP crowd control and Willow just gets free damage" but in my testing I lose a significant amount of time chasing mobs when they're on fire because they're panicking and running around... I would take disabling panic as a boost in Willow's cc and ability to fight with fire in many non-boss cases. For spiders and bees who can be stunlocked infinitely its not much of a problem but for tall birds and bearger its a laugh trying to do anything while they're on fire (although that is where Shadow Tendrils can pay off lol) 21 minutes ago, NoKrampusSack said: no? Really? Most of her quotes are designed to be quite spiteful. "Hey, uh... what library did Ms. Wickerbottom work at, anyway?", "What's burned is burned, no point thinking about it too much, right?", Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoKrampusSack Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 4 minutes ago, Shosuko said: Really? Most of her quotes are designed to be quite spiteful. "Hey, uh... what library did Ms. Wickerbottom work at, anyway?", "What's burned is burned, no point thinking about it too much, right?", thats not exactly spiteful no besides that point from a gameplay perspective it sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalkanCockroach Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 6 minutes ago, Shosuko said: "Hey, uh... what library did Ms. Wickerbottom work at, anyway?", "What's burned is burned, no point thinking about it too much, right?", That doesn't sound spiteful at all. It sounds like she feels guilt but tries to ignore the past to escape from her guilt. Spiteful would be if she said "ugh old lady survived" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 Nah, Willow has always been an anti-social person who wants to burn the base down - thematically and mechanically. In DS she would randomly start fires when insane. In DST they immediately nuked her skills b/c they were afraid of her co-op conflicts basically making her girl Wilson. In each of her reworks all of the suggestions for what is thematic and useful for her are always in conflict with what can play nice with others. Nothing about that has changed... except that maybe this time Klei is letting her off her leash. Fire is what fire is. It always has been. People have always been able to light mobs on fire with torches and fire staffs for what use it can provide. The only difference here is Willow finds a lot more use than other people. Deal with it. She is not supposed to play nice with others - making fire lame is going to ruin the whole mood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoKrampusSack Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 16 minutes ago, Shosuko said: Nah, Willow has always been an anti-social person who wants to burn the base down - thematically and mechanically. In DS she would randomly start fires when insane. In DST they immediately nuked her skills b/c they were afraid of her co-op conflicts basically making her girl Wilson. In each of her reworks all of the suggestions for what is thematic and useful for her are always in conflict with what can play nice with others. Nothing about that has changed... except that maybe this time Klei is letting her off her leash. Fire is what fire is. It always has been. People have always been able to light mobs on fire with torches and fire staffs for what use it can provide. The only difference here is Willow finds a lot more use than other people. Deal with it. She is not supposed to play nice with others - making fire lame is going to ruin the whole mood. what? bro i just said those arent spiteful and that her multiplayer gameplay sucks character personality should not clash with gameplay in the slightest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious box Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 13 minutes ago, Shosuko said: Fire is what fire is. It always has been. People have always been able to light mobs on fire with torches and fire staffs for what use it can provide. Except all the risks that balanced fire were removed so it's definitely not how it's always been. I wouldn't say anything about the infinite panic if burnt mobs still just dropped ash...instead I'd be talking about how bad it is to have a character with fire perks who burns all their loot...can't win them all I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 6 minutes ago, Mysterious box said: Except all the risks that balanced fire were removed so it's definitely not how it's always been. I wouldn't say anything about the infinite panic if burnt mobs still just dropped ash...instead I'd be talking about how bad it is to have a character with fire perks who burns all their loot...can't win them all I guess. Not all the risks - because clearly this post exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalkanCockroach Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 23 minutes ago, Shosuko said: Nah, Willow has always been an anti-social person who wants to burn the base down - thematically and mechanically. We've only seen one of those traits which is pyromania. In the shorts she gets along well with others so i have no idea what you're on about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 8 minutes ago, NoKrampusSack said: what? bro i just said those arent spiteful and that her multiplayer gameplay sucks character personality should not clash with gameplay in the slightest You have to be real generous to read all of her lines about burning things and think she doesn't want to actually burn it all down... Just now, BalkanCockroach said: We've only seen one of those traits which is pyromania. In the shorts she gets along well with others so i have no idea what you're on about. Yeah, these fires are totally unrelated to the Willow with her torch out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious box Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 Just now, Shosuko said: Not all the risks - because clearly this post exists. This post is about the risk being pushed on to others though which is just bad design if I'm being honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoKrampusSack Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 1 minute ago, Shosuko said: You have to be real generous to read all of her lines about burning things and think she doesn't want to actually burn it all down... Yeah, these fires are totally unrelated to the Willow with her torch out... what are you talking about willow has been show to interact well with others in canon and animatics shes a pyromaniac not a complete outcast and again personality should not clash with gameplay in this case it sucks for everyone involved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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