feedback Willow SUCKS in Multiplayer

[Mysterious box]

23 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

If you only feel remorse when seeing the results of the bad things you did, that is still considered sociopathic bevahior. Also, not only those quotes can show you this, but most of them are very childishly and does not take into consideration the consequences of her actions.

I mean yea it makes sense that she wouldn't consider the consequences of her actions didn't have the best caretakers as a child and ended up burning down a orphanage to save herself to what seems to be implied live on the streets until she joined up with Maxwell the odds that she fully understood the consequences or even got a proper education is very unlikely.

I do agree she's a bad person regardless of her circumstances though.

[BalkanCockroach]

4 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Willow after burning...

Bunny Hutch - "Ha! Good result."

Mushroom Light - "C'mon, you saw that coming."

Wicker's library - "What's burned is burned, no point thinking about it too much, right?"

Mushroom farm - "Mold problem's taken care of."

Cartography desk - "Scouts don't need maps, anyway."

Signs - "It said \"Don't play with matches\", but the \"Don't\" is crossed out now."

inspecting merm house - "No one would care if this burned down."

after burning merm house - "It's true, no one cares."

I mean really, how can you read this and think she is remorseful ?? lol

She just comically likes fire. There isn't a team of psychologists behind the game so they just make the quotes to correlate with her gimmick which is pyromania. 

[Yuuko]

I think we should steer this away from thematic b/c really - she is a pyro and shows no remorse for torching things, but that isn't what this thread is really about.

I think friendly fire - lunar fire, combustion, etc are bad.  Combustion should avoid effecting allied mobs and lunar fire should certainly not damage players or allied mobs.

However - panicking around fire is fine.  Its probably still good for them to do b/c they would take fire damage if they stood next to a burning enemy.  It is an anti-synergy, but not destructive b/c panic doesn't kill the mobs it just prevents them from being useful.

[BalkanCockroach]

Plus she isn't doing anything insanely malicious in these quotes. I'm sure she enjoys the other survivors company as in your own replies quotes she praises twins.

[Mysterious box]

35 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I don't see that as a problem.  If Webber decorates spider dens around base there is a good chance they can become unfriendly and bite me.  This is the risk of basing around Webber.  Wormwood can put bramble traps down, which are very dangerous for other players - unless wormwood gives them an armor or specs into his tree to stop it.  He can also put eye plants down for his own uses which can be risky for other players.  Wicker can still summon tentacles and while they probably aren't in vogue right now they have been used for farms and boss fights - and them dropping from the radar has more to do with new tactics coming out, not that tentacles were bad.  If you walk over Bqueen where Wicker summoned tentacles and die that is ... quite funny actually lol.  These are all situations that have bitten me before.

I don't disagree but I'm also of the mind 2 wrongs don't make a right and I'd prefer not adding more wrongs in the game because wrongs already exist.

31 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I think we should steer this away from thematic b/c really - she is a pyro and shows no remorse for torching things, but that isn't what this thread is really about.

I think friendly fire - lunar fire, combustion, etc are bad.  Combustion should avoid effecting allied mobs and lunar fire should certainly not damage players or allied mobs.

However - panicking around fire is fine.  Its probably still good for them to do b/c they would take fire damage if they stood next to a burning enemy.  It is an anti-synergy, but not destructive b/c panic doesn't kill the mobs it just prevents them from being useful.

That aside the whole panic mechanic being so easily exploitable just makes me wonder what the game's future balance is going to be...

[Swiyss]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

That aside the whole panic mechanic being so easily exploitable just makes me wonder what the game's future balance is going to be...

Too many soft people that call challenges and tasks "annoying" opinating results in bad game choices being made...

So yeah, don't expect any nerf on anything. And when the tasks come, expect them to go away as quickly as they came.

[Yuuko]

15 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

 

That aside the whole panic mechanic being so easily exploitable just makes me wonder what the game's future balance is going to be...

idk depends on the mob.  After they released Wanda they did a sweep that removed or reduced hitstun from a lot of mobs.  The mobs that don't have hitstun are very safe during panic b/c you have to chase them to damage them.  The fire tick might eventually kill them but it takes a while...  Bees and spiders were both left with hit stun in effect so you can combust them, then pick them off one by one easily but if you torch a tall bird you're going to have a different experience.

It may be that Klei needs to revisit hitstun and panic behaviors.  Some mobs like bishops don't move when they panic so its a great cc for them (and many players exploit this when doing early ruins rushing,) but others like bearger lol gl with that XD

[grm9]

if they'll keep the friendly fire they should make it possible to kill willow if she's attacking you too, i'd also probably kick willows that i don't know if the team isn't fine with rolling back st any moment if she starts killing people 

[Primalflower]

Willow has a pathological obsession with fire, is quite childish and immature, and thereby has not-that-much regard for other people, the moment that they step over some kind of line in her head. But she is not remorseless, and she understands, on some level, not to just blatantly hurt people she cares about. She clearly forms bonds as depicted in her quotes with other characters, especially when they engage in her "interest". I would not say it is in character for her to go out to hurt other people, even if she'd done that in the past, with things like the orphanage and the library, which lets be real, she was probably set up to do that by maxwell.

@Shosuko

[Mysterious box]

10 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

idk depends on the mob.  After they released Wanda they did a sweep that removed or reduced hitstun from a lot of mobs.  The mobs that don't have hitstun are very safe during panic b/c you have to chase them to damage them.  The fire tick might eventually kill them but it takes a while...  Bees and spiders were both left with hit stun in effect so you can combust them, then pick them off one by one easily but if you torch a tall bird you're going to have a different experience.

It may be that Klei needs to revisit hitstun and panic behaviors.  Some mobs like bishops don't move when they panic so its a great cc for them (and many players exploit this when doing early ruins rushing,) but others like bearger lol gl with that XD

My issue more than how cheesy it is still kinda just comes down to where the line in the sand is draw because for the sake of fairness and not needing 80 refreshes I feel we need to at least mark it even if that means fires are left unchanged from how Willow abuses them now.

[Yuuko]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

My issue more than how cheesy it is still kinda just comes down to where the line in the sand is draw because for the sake of fairness and not needing 80 refreshes I feel we need to at least mark it even if that means fires are left unchanged from how Willow abuses them now.

Well like I said - In aggro control its strong but in disabling a mob to easily kill it depends.  Mobs with panic behaviors where they don't flee (bishops) and mobs that have hitstun (bees) are very susceptible to fire cheese but mobs that resist hitstun or flee from fire (tall birds, beefs, bearger) it is more a nuisance and I would just fight them without lighting them on fire.  I think its okay to have a variety, where sometimes fire is really useful and other times it is really not.  We don't have to oppose every single thing that is like, actually a good tactic for specific situations...

[Q42]

5 hours ago, Shosuko said:

However - panicking around fire is fine.  Its probably still good for them to do b/c they would take fire damage if they stood next to a burning enemy.  It is an anti-synergy, but not destructive b/c panic doesn't kill the mobs it just prevents them from being useful.

Shosuko I usually agree with you but I don't think any situation whether it's in character or not should make for bad teamwork that leaves the other player feeling unhelpful. This is a cooperative game and all abilities should be made in mind with other characters being present and able to use their abilities as well. I'd rather not have Webber's and Wurt's and whoevers allies able to panic around Willow's fires. 

[Yuuko]

43 minutes ago, Q42 said:

This is a cooperative game and all abilities should be made in mind with other characters being present and able to use their abilities as well.

I think that is a pretty restrictive design practice.  There are a lot of times where a strategy is more exclusionary, even in co-op games and its not really bad.  Klaus is a boss fight where it is often easier solo then having 4+ people trying to fight at once because of the nature of Klaus spells.  Even just having a pig man come nearby can cause damage by triggering a fire spell in a bad spot.  Abi or anyone really can kill the deer triggering enraged Klaus too.

Yet Klaus is generally regarded as one of the more fun bosses.

Basing with a Webber planting his egg dens around is risky too.  If a spider takes damage too close to the nest the whole nest reverts.  Wurt can build merm huts but the merms can be hostile to other players.  For that matter pigs are often something to keep near base and they can be hostile to certain characters too.  Before Woodie got his skill tree Wicker spamming lunar books for infinite full moons was murder for him.

I don't think its much of an ask to say "If you're playing Willow and you're with a group you don't light the boss on fire b/c everyone will take damage if they attack it."  And when Willow is alone she can go ham and burn it all she wants.  When I play multiplayer I often group up with others for boss fights, but sometimes we do it solo for whatever purpose.

I don't think we need to worry about absolutes - ALL abilities do not need to be made with ALL other characters and abilities in mind to prevent any conflicts.  imo conflicts are inevitable.

[mykenception]

10 hours ago, Swiyss said:

Too many soft people that call challenges and tasks "annoying" opinating results in bad game choices being made...

So yeah, don't expect any nerf on anything. And when the tasks come, expect them to go away as quickly as they came.

must you always call players who have  issues or problems with challenges "soft"? that's already considered an insult and has no place in a discussion unless you want your point to be ignored 

4 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Klaus is a boss fight where it is often easier solo then having 4+ people trying to fight at once because of the nature of Klaus spells.

fought klaus with some lightbugs as wormwood, had an awful time, won't do it again