feedback Willow SUCKS in Multiplayer

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

This post is about the risk being pushed on to others though which is just bad design if I'm being honest.

idk that it is.  In other games there are builds that are good in groups, and builds that are good solo.  Fire is obviously not good in groups using minions...  That is a choice players will have to make when picking their characters or deciding what strategies to employ.

I already use different strategies depending on the character I'm playing as and with, so I don't see this as a problem.  Willow is still good not burning things during combat.  She does not need to light anything on fire to do her job.

[BalkanCockroach]

3 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Yeah, these fires are totally unrelated to the Willow with her torch out

I said one of the traits and PYROMANIA. Learn how to read before using sarcasm, it has higher priority lol.

[Yuuko]

2 minutes ago, BalkanCockroach said:

I said one of the traits and PYROMANIA. Learn how to read before using sarcasm, it has higher priority lol.

Yeah and what about it?  Fire is what it is.  Mobs panic.

This is just like people having an issue with Bernie fighting non-aggressive shadows when Willow is above sanity threshold.  Its how Bernie works.

If you want to make a change here you're going to have to come at it from a different angle.

If we make Webber's spiders not panic they'll probably die from fire damage being close to a burning target anyway...

[BalkanCockroach]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

Yeah and what about it?  Fire is what it is.  Mobs panic.

This is just like people having an issue with Bernie fighting non-aggressive shadows when Willow is above sanity threshold.  Its how Bernie works.

Im not talking about fire. Im talking about you inserting anti-social into the character. Infact i WANT willow to be an annoyance.

[Yuuko]

Just now, BalkanCockroach said:

Im not talking about fire. Im talking about you inserting anti-social into the character.

Wanting to burn things is anti-social behavior.

Spoiler

Antisocial personality disorder, sometimes called sociopathy, is a mental health condition in which a person consistently shows no regard for right and wrong and ignores the rights and feelings of others

 

[Mysterious box]

6 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

idk that it is.  In other games there are builds that are good in groups, and builds that are good solo.  Fire is obviously not good in groups using minions...  That is a choice players will have to make when picking their characters or deciding what strategies to employ.

I already use different strategies depending on the character I'm playing as and with, so I don't see this as a problem.  Willow is still good not burning things during combat.  She does not need to light anything on fire to do her job.

Let me ask you this how do you think players feel about friendly fire in most multiplayer games and the idea someone would put that responsibility in the hands of a player to not screw the team over with it.

[BalkanCockroach]

4 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Wanting to burn things is anti-social behavior.

Not every anti-social person is a sociopath or a pyromaniac. And we know Willow isn't a sociopath cause she feels guilt in the quotes you previously mentioned.

[Swiyss]

46 minutes ago, BalkanCockroach said:

That doesn't sound spiteful at all. It sounds like she feels guilt but tries to ignore the past to escape from her guilt. Spiteful would be if she said "ugh old lady survived"

That's your interpretation of her, clearly you don't play her that much.

[BalkanCockroach]

4 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

That's your interpretation of her, clearly you don't play her that much.

No it's not my interpretation, she literally doesn't say anything that can be described as spiteful. Unless you are blind or see what you wanna see.

[Swiyss]

1 minute ago, BalkanCockroach said:

No it's not my interpretation, she literally doesn't say anything that can be described as spiteful. Unless you are blind or see what you wanna see.

Yeah, again, that's your interpretation.

[BalkanCockroach]

8 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Yeah, again, that's your interpretation.

Well if common sense is my interpretation i guess. I can also have an interpretation about Wolf being brave, doesn't mean it's true.

[Swiyss]

31 minutes ago, NoKrampusSack said:

character personality should not clash with gameplay in the slightest

Dude... are you out of your mind?

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

Let me ask you this how do you think players feel about friendly fire in most multiplayer games and the idea someone would put that responsibility in the hands of a player to not screw the team over with it.

Depends.  When we're talking about mobs panicking because Willow lit something on fire near them - that is okay.

When we're talking about her flamethrower nuking players / allied mobs, or her 1 ember spell torching Wormwood its bad.

Perhaps where I'm drawing the lines is unclear - but my rebuttal is about mobs panicking.  Same as players attacking a target that is on fire and taking fire damage from it.  Fire is what it is, and only so much can be taken away before it turns into a joke.  I prefer a Willow still with some risk because she is like a fire herself, beautiful yet destructive.  If we take away the destructive then it just isn't as good.  This is why I'm not keen on replacing her fire entirely with some mystical shadow-fire as many have suggested.  Having her fire not spread is good (although I'd like to see a way in which it can still spread, b/c this works for bad and good)

I do agree with the OP on certain points that I think can be fixed without issue.

2 hours ago, BLUYOLOMAN said:

Willows AOE Lunar Flames (I can't test combustion on followers without it crashing), which decimate the followers of your allies.

Wormwood, I don't think I need to state why Wormwood is such an anti-synergy. If I do then get this: plant = flammable.

These I feel can be fixed easily without causing any problems to Willow.  She does not need to flame thrower allies.  The system already can tell the difference between neutral and aggressive monsters - casting combustion next to bees will only burn the ones that are aggressive to you, same with tall birds.  I think spiders do not get this detection, or at least have some default "aggressive" marker.  Klei might need to do work to protect allied mobs if they are getting burning by combustion but like... them panicking when fire is around?  That is something I would expect.

[Mysterious box]

9 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

That's your interpretation of her, clearly you don't play her that much.

I'm going to have to disagree here her quote is definitely implying remorse but she definitely didn't have it when she did it but in hindsight.

[Yuuko]

13 minutes ago, BalkanCockroach said:

Not every anti-social person is a sociopath or a pyromaniac. And we know Willow isn't a sociopath cause she feels guilt in the quotes you previously mentioned.

Not all rectangles are square, but all square are rectangles.

Not all anti-social people are pyromaniacs, but pyromania almost always comes with sociopathy (anti-social behavior disorder.)

Also - the library quote is when inspecting the library Wicker builds in game.  The "what's burnt is burnt" is when inspecting it after Willow burns it...  This is not avoiding her past or even dodging responsibility.  This is her being dismissive that someone else's structure was destroyed.  Also her quotes for other characters burning things are usually encouraging to them compared to most characters acting in disapproval. 

Willow's quotes towards firestarters:

"Oh, %s!! Let me help with your next fire!!"

"Are we lighting fires?! I want in!"

"Burny twins! High five."

"%s! Was that your fire? I'm so proud!"

compared to Wilson

"Wait, don't tell me. You lit a fire."

"We need to have a group meeting about fire safety."

"%s is becoming a survival liability."

And even to Wilson to Willow:

"Again?"

This is clearly her behavior pattern.

[NoKrampusSack]

9 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Dude... are you out of your mind?

funny coming from the guy who wants disease back

[Swiyss]

6 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I'm going to have to disagree here her quote is definitely implying remorse but she definitely didn't have it when she did it but in hindsight.

If you only feel remorse when seeing the results of the bad things you did, that is still considered sociopathic bevahior. Also, not only those quotes can show you this, but most of them are very childishly and does not take into consideration the consequences of her actions.

[Mysterious box]

8 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I prefer a Willow still with some risk because she is like a fire herself, beautiful yet destructive.  If we take away the destructive then it just isn't as good.  This is why I'm not keen on replacing her fire entirely with some mystical shadow-fire as many have suggested. 

I agree risk is a interesting thing but my issue is she's not the one dealing with that risk which means she has still turned fire into just as much of a joke as if we used some mystical fire. Your friends take the risk of fire both in mobs and bosses being on fire and by being caught in the crossfire of her abilities so there are no real risks involved for Willow it's like having a character who gains abilities by stealing health and sanity from his teammates and gives them a negative status.

[BalkanCockroach]

8 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Not all rectangles are square, but all square are rectangles.

Not all anti-social people are pyromaniacs, but pyromania almost always comes with sociopathy (anti-social behavior disorder.)

Also - the library quote is when inspecting the library Wicker builds in game.  The "what's burnt is burnt" is when inspecting it after Willow burns it...  This is not avoiding her past or even dodging responsibility.  This is her being dismissive that someone else's structure was destroyed.  Also her quotes for other characters burning things are usually encouraging to them compared to most characters acting in disapproval. 

Willow's quotes towards firestarters:

"Oh, %s!! Let me help with your next fire!!"

"Are we lighting fires?! I want in!"

"Burny twins! High five."

"%s! Was that your fire? I'm so proud!"

compared to Wilson

"Wait, don't tell me. You lit a fire."

"We need to have a group meeting about fire safety."

"%s is becoming a survival liability."

And even to Wilson to Willow:

"Again?"

This is clearly her behavior pattern.

My question is so far we've never seen her being distant from the survivors in her quotes. She is definetly childish and destructive not a sociopath. Also why would she wonder which library wicker worked in if not for concern.

[Yuuko]

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I agree risk is a interesting thing but my issue is she's not the one dealing with that risk which means she has still turned fire into just as much of a joke as if we used some mystical fire. Your friends take the risk of fire both in mobs and bosses being on fire and by being caught in the crossfire of her abilities so there are no real risks involved for Willow it's like having a character who gains abilities by stealing health and sanity from his teammates and gives them a negative status.

I don't see that as a problem.  If Webber decorates spider dens around base there is a good chance they can become unfriendly and bite me.  This is the risk of basing around Webber.  Wormwood can put bramble traps down, which are very dangerous for other players - unless wormwood gives them an armor or specs into his tree to stop it.  He can also put eye plants down for his own uses which can be risky for other players.  Wicker can still summon tentacles and while they probably aren't in vogue right now they have been used for farms and boss fights - and them dropping from the radar has more to do with new tactics coming out, not that tentacles were bad.  If you walk over Bqueen where Wicker summoned tentacles and die that is ... quite funny actually lol.  These are all situations that have bitten me before.

[BalkanCockroach]

Also for the burnt structure quotes. Just cause she is careless and destructive doesn't mean she does't feel empathy at all.

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, BalkanCockroach said:

My question is so far we've never seen her being distant from the survivors in her quotes. She is definetly childish and destructive not a sociopath. Also why would she wonder which library wicker worked in if not for concern.

If not for concern?  This is all about her being evasive to responsibility, and dismissive of damage.  idk how you can read it otherwise.

Willow - burned library Wicker worked at - inspects her library in game "Oh wow, what library did you work at again?  its probably not important"

burns down her library in game "No use crying over spilt milk lol"

[Swiyss]

12 minutes ago, NoKrampusSack said:

funny coming from the guy who wants disease back

Diseases were a good thing for the game, whether you find it annying or not.

[BalkanCockroach]

4 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

If not for concern?  This is all about her being evasive to responsibility, and dismissive of damage.  idk how you can read it otherwise.

Willow - burned library Wicker worked at - inspects her library in game "Oh wow, what library did you work at again?  its probably not important"

burns down her library in game "No use crying over spilt milk lol"

Being dismissive to not feel guilty is a common trait a lot of people share.

For the second one she could be actually wondering.

Last one is true. I chalk it up to her being a stupid selfish dummy.

What i don't understand is how your logic is straight up jumping into her being a sociopath. There's simply no evidence for his.

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, BalkanCockroach said:

Also for the burnt structure quotes. Just cause she is careless and destructive doesn't mean she does't feel empathy at all.

Willow after burning...

Bunny Hutch - "Ha! Good result."

Mushroom Light - "C'mon, you saw that coming."

Wicker's library - "What's burned is burned, no point thinking about it too much, right?"

Mushroom farm - "Mold problem's taken care of."

Cartography desk - "Scouts don't need maps, anyway."

Signs - "It said \"Don't play with matches\", but the \"Don't\" is crossed out now."

inspecting merm house - "No one would care if this burned down."

after burning merm house - "It's true, no one cares."

I mean really, how can you read this and think she is remorseful ?? lol