Using math to prove wilson is weaker than a tree (please fix)

[MrsBoris]

Wilson has a skill tree, there is a tree with 7 points to spend that upgrades your torch tile range and durability, with you spend at least 4 points you can get the torch toss ability, it allows you to plant a torch on the ground as fixated light, last for 2 minutes and 30 seconds and with the 7 points has medium light (thats half of wilsons points).

trees in dst are available in 95% of biomes, have no downsides, respawn by themselves and can be lit on fire (basically infinite resource).

lighting a tree on fire costs no points and is available to all characters, the light from a tree is fixated, it lasts for 45 seconds and the radius of light is almost 3 times bigger which covers the whole screen. since trees are infinite their light will last for as long as you have a torch or lighter and if you spend 1% of your torch duration everytime you light a tree on fire trees give you 75 AUTUMN NIGHTS OF FULL SCREEN ILUMINATION (PER TORCH) WHILE BEING AVAILABLE TO ALL CHARACTERS AND COSTING 0 POINTS.

And you know what is the worst part is? to unlock torch toss you have to play wilson in DST for almost 4 hours! a time investment of 4 hours being completely obsolete by basic beginner knowledge

Congratulations wilson, you got outclassed, outplayed by a plant.

Can klei just give wilson range and durability buffs to all light sources and change torch toss for a belt that carries torches and lanterns hands free????? ITS 7 POINTS,

Klei i have been giving all love and patience to the situation just trying to change things for the better but its been so looong (since i last have seen my son) just do it man.

[Bombobbit]

The torch tree should give the bonuses to all the light generating items.

[Cheggf]

Of the 65 biomes, trees are readily available in only 8 (12.3%) with them being sporadically available in another another 9 (13.8%) and completely absent from 48 (73.8%). You can add 5 more (7.6%) if you count mushtrees as trees, but that's still 43 (66.1%) biomes without trees.

[mkemal23]

1 hour ago, MrsBoris said:

And you know what is the worst part is? to unlock torch toss you have to play wilson in DST for almost 4 hours! a time investment of 4 hours being completely obsolete

This is what I was talking about when his "rework" was in beta.

This isn't about if Wilson gets stronger or not, this is about how his skill tree just don't work. 

The problem of the torches is that no matter how buff they are, they almost immediately get replaced by other light sources. 

The main problem of this, is that skill trees are meant to give players a sense of progression. But the torch tree fails to do that. Because the usefull(lol) part of it (torch toss) is locked behind at least 4 insight points.(And first 4 insight points are roughly equals to 4 hours of gameplay)

By the time player gets the fourth insight point, they most likely already learned about lantern and other light sources and dumped all their points to other trees. And this creates another problem, Now there is no reason to change your build because there is nothing left to change.(Without the torch tree, You can max transmutation tree and still have enough points to get the beard storage, and lunar/shadow skills)

And, this shows you another problem, Half of Wilson's transmutations actually do nothing and they change nothing about his gameplay. Seriously, does anybody think that these crafts add a gameplay value to Wilson?

Spoiler

 This adds almost nothing but at least it's the first skill of the tree.

 I can see why this was added, sad that it only makes Wilson a pick switch character for endgame building.

 Wilson is the only character that does NOT need to craft beard hair klei.

 This one is a endgame skill. Just hoard your gems and use celestial portal to craft them.

Again, Iridescent gem crafting is nice, but it adds nothing to gameplay. You pick two moon idols, switch your skill, craft the gem, and then switch back.

Does any of this mean that Wilson has nothing good? No, of course not. For example, transmutate Icky I is one of the best skills Wilson has. It's simple and helps him every stage of the game and not only that, It also synergises with Wilson's favorite food. So this means that, klei can make a usefull skill without breaking Wilson's "default" state. We just have to give feedback and show them how.

So I'm also going to make a detailed post about the things I would change about Wilson's skill tree. I just have to find a proper time to post it because everybody is busy with beta branch. haha.

[MrsBoris]

Dear Cheggf, you are counting late game biomes and small scale biomes, the biomes players will spend most of their time have trees, if the biome doesn't have a tree its either not a problem or you are not expected to have a torch.

example: the ancient fuelweaver biome has no trees, you are not expected to use a torch in a fuelweaver fight

example 2: the stone biome (maybe name is quarry) has no trees, just wait 60 seconds to end the night or light a tree neighboring the biome lmao

[Cheggf]

18 minutes ago, MrsBoris said:

Dear Cheggf, you are counting late game biomes and small scale biomes, the biomes players will spend most of their time have trees, if the biome doesn't have a tree its either not a problem or you are not expected to have a torch.

example: the ancient fuelweaver biome has no trees, you are not expected to use a torch in a fuelweaver fight

example 2: the stone biome (maybe name is quarry) has no trees, just wait 60 seconds to end the night or light a tree neighboring the biome lmao

There's no such thing as a late game biome, you can go to any of them as soon as you want to. The closest thing to a late game biome is the Atrium, but you can still get some rewards from there day 1, you just can't fight AFW.

The biomes that you spend most of your time in have trees, and you're fine with burning things, and you're fine with wasting a ton of time waiting around whenever you need to do something in one of the many biomes without trees like savanna, oasis, badlands, rockyland, etc. That's just your playstyle, everyone doesn't have your playstyle.

[MrsBoris]

5 minutes ago, mkemal23 said:

This is what I was talking about when his "rework" was in beta.

This isn't about if Wilson gets stronger or not, this is about how his skill tree just don't work. 

The problem of the torches is that no matter how buff they are, they almost immediately get replaced by other light sources. But, the main problem isn't even about this.

The main problem is that skill trees are meant to give players a sense of progression. But the torch tree fails to do that. Because the usefull(lol) part of it (torch throw) is locked behind at least 4 insight points.(And 4 insight points are roughly equals to 4 hours of gameplay)

By the time player gets the fourth insight point, they most likely already learned about lantern and other light sources and dumped all their points to other trees. And this creates another problem, There is no reason to change your build now because there is nothing left to change.(Without the torch tree, You can max transmutation tree and still have enough points to get the beard storage, and lunar/shadow skills)

And, this shows you another problem, Half of Wilsons transmutations actually do nothing and they change nothing about his gameplay. Seriously, does anybody think that these crafts add a gameplay value to Wilson?

  Hide contents

 This adds almost nothing but at least it's the first skill of the tree.

 I can see why this was added, sad that it only makes Wilson a pick switch character for endgame building.

 Wilson is the only character that does NOT need to craft beard hair klei.

 This one is a endgame skill. Just hoard your gems and use celestial portal to craft them.

Again, Iridescent gem crafting is nice, but it adds nothing to gameplay. You pick two moon idols, switch your skill, craft the gem, and then switch back.

Does any of this mean that Wilson has nothing good? No, of course not. For example, transmutate Icky I is one of the best skills Wilson has. It's simple and helps him every stage of the game and not only that, It also synergises with Wilson's favorite food. So this means that, klei can make a usefull skill without breaking Wilson's "default" state. We just have to give feedback and show them how.

So I'm also going to make a detailed post about the things I would change about Wilson's skill tree. I just have to find a proper time to post it because everybody is busy with beta branch. haha.

you didn't even mention how ridiculous 3 nitre for 1 gold and 2 gold for 1 nitre is, and its even worse for the moon rock one, you DONT need moonrock and marbles or cut stone are a HUGE price, the last two ore transmutes are pointless. Im gonna make a visual representation of wilsons skill tree to point out what has to be changed. thought icky 3 is good cuz bone shard and hound tooth hassles are common, the should just give him transmutation for accesible resources, like web into rope, monster meat into normal meat (that would be awesome) transmute grass and flowers you know.

X is useless and E is expensive.

10 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

There's no such thing as a late game biome, you can go to any of them as soon as you want to. The closest thing to a late game biome is the Atrium, but you can still get some rewards from there day 1, you just can't fight AFW.

The biomes that you spend most of your time in have trees, and you're fine with burning things, and you're fine with wasting a ton of time waiting around whenever you need to do something in one of the many biomes without trees like savanna, oasis, badlands, rockyland, etc. That's just your playstyle, everyone doesn't have your playstyle.

if 99,999% of the community doesnt reach a biome before late game than it is late game biome.

you are being misleading, i have already addressed the no tree biomes you quoted so that argument is already answered. most of the time people are in biomes with trees and the point of my argument is that everywhere that the torch is supposed to shine it is outperformed by a tree. (also you said oasis has no trees and savanna has grass if you want to burn them)

[NoodlemanNed]

i think in order to prevent power creep klei should nerf trees

[Cheggf]

Saying random blatantly incorrect numbers over and over again doesn't mean you're using math or proving anything.

[MondayNight]

After reading title I've very much expected to find the detailed description of Wilson's cage match with a mighty.. Tree. Not some Ent guard min you, but a simple forest tree. In a corner appears Wilson in his Forge outfit, smacking fists together. Shouts a battle cry and runs full-force towards the other corner, headbutting the tree there for all's expected result: head contusion and falling nose-first into the dirt. Tree... swings gently in the wind's breeze. KO! flashes the screen and fades to black. Like Wilson's conscience. Alas, it was boring Math indeed that put the beloved gentleman scientist to shame.

"KLei pls fix!"

[somethin]

Ah, but you see, trees cannot move, therefore, they automatically lose.

*treeguards rumble in the distance* ...I rescind my words.

[MrsBoris]

50 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

After reading title I've very much expected to find the detailed description of Wilson's cage match with a mighty.. Tree. Not some Ent guard min you, but a simple forest tree. In a corner appears Wilson in his Forge outfit, smacking fists together. Shouts a battle cry and runs full-force towards the other corner, headbutting the tree there for all's expected result: head contusion and falling nose-first into the dirt. Tree... swings gently in the wind's breeze. KO! flashes the screen and fades to black. Like Wilson's conscience. Alas, it was boring Math indeed that put the beloved gentleman scientist to shame.

"KLei pls fix!"

when i wrote that title i also thought of wilson losing a fight to a tree, you wrote that scenario perfectly

3 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Saying random blatantly incorrect numbers over and over again doesn't mean you're using math or proving anything.

....these numbers are for me to express things i could not do easily with words, there is no word expressive of enough to measure how many people fit the playstyle i pictured, so i used a hyperbolical number,  which is a contrast to my original post where i did not hyperbolical math to prove my point. anyways all your comments until now  just tried to tell me that the numbers i porpusefuly made up were.... made up. so quite a waste of time i'd say

[shaurun]

Regarding trees an torches. 

I actually find it useful through my playthrough:

- torch toss on rocky bioms allows to mine stones at night

- torch is better than lamp or miner hat since it's cheap, you don't need to charge it. just create new one, and you can fight with it or set a tree on fire as you said.When torch lives long and has higher light area, it's much better that lamp/miner hat.

- sometimes you don't want accidentally put on fire everything around so torch toss is great.

[Retepeter]

10 hours ago, Bombobbit said:

The torch tree should give the bonuses to all the light generating items.

no you see all wilson ever does is hold torches in promotional art

[Pomato]

2 hours ago, Retepeter said:

no you see all wilson ever does is hold torches in promotional art

Say, pal, you new here?

[Brago-sama]

Huh, so we cannonicly hold lanterns from the top? Neat

[grm9]

2 hours ago, Pomato said:

Say, pal, you new here?

isn't that the update that added lantern in the first place 

15 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Of the 65 biomes, trees are readily available in only 8 (12.3%) with them being sporadically available in another another 9 (13.8%) and completely absent from 48 (73.8%). You can add 5 more (7.6%) if you count mushtrees as trees, but that's still 43 (66.1%) biomes without trees.

which biomes without trees do you usually visit at night before getting a lantern 

[MrsBoris]

7 hours ago, shaurun said:

Regarding trees an torches. 

I actually find it useful through my playthrough:

- torch toss on rocky bioms allows to mine stones at night

- torch is better than lamp or miner hat since it's cheap, you don't need to charge it. just create new one, and you can fight with it or set a tree on fire as you said.When torch lives long and has higher light area, it's much better that lamp/miner hat.

- sometimes you don't want accidentally put on fire everything around so torch toss is great.

if you are using a torch at night its probably autumn, autumn nights are 60 seconds long, you think its worth a minimum investment of 4 points only to save 1 minute of time (you also have alternative light options) in your whole playthrough? think again

okay, torch is NOT better than lamp or miner hat, in terms of durability and light range (even with buffs), you don't need to charge it because it is descartable, fighting with a torch does low damage, WILL make wild fire even in your base and will burn the loot from the monster, spending 2 grass and 2 sticks everytime you need a torch (which will always be weaker than a miner hat or lantern) is gonna add up very quickly. when torch is buffed it is not better than lamp or miner, its less than both, do you even play the game or is this a troll comment? all your arguments are defeated with common sense or are just blatant lie.

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE ACCIDENTAL FIRES WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING THINGS WITH TORCHES???? ALSO YOU KNOW WHAT DOESN'T PUT THINGS ACCIDENTALLY ON FIRE? A LANTERN OR A MINER HAT. 

your comment has so much lying and dumb statements you are borderline trolling

say something serious or stop wasting my time

[grm9]

18 minutes ago, MrsBoris said:

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE ACCIDENTAL FIRES WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING THINGS WITH TORCHES????

pretty sure they meant tossing the torch on the ground and fighting nearby it 

[shaurun]

26 minutes ago, MrsBoris said:

if you are using a torch at night its probably autumn, autumn nights are 60 seconds long, you think its worth a minimum investment of 4 points only to save 1 minute of time (you also have alternative light options) in your whole playthrough? think again

okay, torch is NOT better than lamp or miner hat, in terms of durability and light range (even with buffs), you don't need to charge it because it is descartable, fighting with a torch does low damage, WILL make wild fire even in your base and will burn the loot from the monster, spending 2 grass and 2 sticks everytime you need a torch (which will always be weaker than a miner hat or lantern) is gonna add up very quickly. when torch is buffed it is not better than lamp or miner, its less than both, do you even play the game or is this a troll comment? all your arguments are defeated with common sense or are just blatant lie.

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE ACCIDENTAL FIRES WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING THINGS WITH TORCHES???? ALSO YOU KNOW WHAT DOESN'T PUT THINGS ACCIDENTALLY ON FIRE? A LANTERN OR A MINER HAT. 

your comment has so much lying and dumb statements you are borderline trolling

say something serious or stop wasting my time

Why are you mad? I said sometimes I care not to spread fires (in case of unexplored areas mostly).  But sometimes I don't.Sometimes I really want to make enemies cooked/panic and it's up to me to prepare the right place for such fight.

At base you have firepit so no need to have a torch mostly. Also you might have ice-flingo if you'd like to fight with a torch on base.

[Yuuko]

You're right, we definitely need a fire emote for the forums.

[MrsBoris]

4 hours ago, shaurun said:

Why are you mad? I said sometimes I care not to spread fires (in case of unexplored areas mostly).  But sometimes I don't.Sometimes I really want to make enemies cooked/panic and it's up to me to prepare the right place for such fight.

At base you have firepit so no need to have a torch mostly. Also you might have ice-flingo if you'd like to fight with a torch on base.

i made it very clear why im mad and i can quote myself again "all your arguments are defeated with common sense or are just blatant lie."   Now for this comment, you are telling me what you like to do sometimes, this has no cohesion, you dont even say the point you want to make, and why would you fight something with a torch and an ice flingo matic? its such a weird and counter intuitive choice. if you still wanna keep commenting dumb and useless comments keep them to yourself kid.

4 hours ago, grm9 said:

pretty sure they meant tossing the torch on the ground and fighting nearby it 

he said make them panic so he is clearly saying he will hit them with torches.

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, MrsBoris said:

he said make them panic so he is clearly saying he will hit them with torches.

in a message that he wrote after mine 

[MrsBoris]

11 minutes ago, grm9 said:

in a message that he wrote after mine 

no need to defend yourself man, im not calling you out, im sorry if you felt that was the case.

[Bird Up]

what is the point of torch toss. like i dont get it. it feels like im missing something, but it really is just toss a torch