Ocean or cave update ?

[Hungry French]

8 hours ago, Shosuko said:

I mean, asking for it doesn't mean you get it.  Also you SEE many players asking for it, but who would make a big post about asking for the game to stay the same?  Obviously visibility of people who want change is more evident... but that does not reflect the feelings of the playerbase at large.

What 's the problem with making hp scaling optional mechanics ? If you want, you turned it on, if you don't want, you didn't turn it on.

[Antynomity]

7 minutes ago, Hungry French said:

What 's the problem with making hp scaling optional mechanics ? If you want, you turned it on, if you don't want, you didn't turn it on.

because people hate it when you can change something in your game for yourself that they like to be unchanged for themselves

[Hungry French]

17 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

because people hate it when you can change something in your game for yourself that they like to be unchanged for themselves

World generation options has existed since the release of DST, game mode change.
And most players use mods.
Or you can take stronger characters.
The presence or absence of players on your server also changes the game the way you want.

So nothing will change from one function.

[Atkvin]

Caves for sure, been a long time coming for all those dusty biomes. Ocean's had its chance, plus I think it has plenty stuff - a lot of the rewards just aren't worth it for exploring, and I still just don't like boating.

My dumb rapidfire suggestions for the ocean: bring back SW fog, improve pirates + let them drop some telescope item that lets players pan their screen in a direction to explore the vast ocean quicker. Maybe add some sort of furnace that players with resource hoards can dump wood into that can make the raft go extra fast. And, of course, work on existing ocean loot and fishes.

 

As for caves? Give me some kind of underground nightmare fuel road only visible and usable under a certain percentage of sanity, I've wanted that forever. Speed boost highway made by the ancients for insane players that leads you to their ruins.

Let rock lobsters lay rock eggs that could be like stone fruits but for morsels, and make it appropriately risky to steal their eggs. Maybe add some guano turf that regenerates around bat caves, that can be dug up, and makes mobs and players disgusted and unable to eat food standing on it (meat farms will pog). These are just some old ideas I've had for a while. Make caves cool again!

[Yuuko]

6 hours ago, Hungry French said:

What 's the problem with making hp scaling optional mechanics ? If you want, you turned it on, if you don't want, you didn't turn it on.

You can turn damage taken to low and get effectively the same thing - the boss will be just as long but it will be much more forgiving.  You can also use rollback to easily reset a fight for more practice.  All of the fights are pretty realistic fights solo with every character if you put the time into learning it.

This isn't an MMORPG where we have 50+ people in a fight making solo completely unrealistic and Klei already provided the training wheels.  The only way health scaling would go is UP because having 4+ characters in a fight turns even misery toad into a joke.

[Hungry French]

8 hours ago, Shosuko said:

You can turn damage taken to low and get effectively the same thing - the boss will be just as long but it will be much more forgiving.  You can also use rollback to easily reset a fight for more practice.  All of the fights are pretty realistic fights solo with every character if you put the time into learning it.

Like other players, I don't like the fact that the fight is too long, that it's boring.
Scaling should be in order to make the game interesting, not easy. All bosses in DST are not difficult and they can be defeated, but will it be interesting for you to beat not difficult bosses for 10 + minutes in solo, but other players who fought in normal conditions with teammates?

 

8 hours ago, Shosuko said:

This isn't an MMORPG where we have 50+ people in a fight making solo completely unrealistic and Klei already provided the training wheels.  The only way health scaling would go is UP because having 4+ characters in a fight turns even misery toad into a joke.

Misery Toadstool is made in such a way that it would not be a joke even for 6 players. 
Klei just made the boss a lot of hp to give a good boss even to 6 players on the server.
If you look at the overall hp balance of creatures from DS.
Misery Toadstool should have approximately 10000 hp.
Although I think Klei would have done less for solo.

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Hungry French said:

Misery Toadstool is made in such a way that it would not be a joke even for 6 players. 
Klei just made the boss a lot of hp to give a good boss even to 6 players on the server.
If you look at the overall hp balance of creatures from DS.
Misery Toadstool should have approximately 10000 hp.
Although I think Klei would have done less for solo.

idk what group you fought misery with...  but last time I did it with 4 players it died so quick I thought we didn't flip it to misery.  Toad is a LOT easier with multiple players b/c you can all deal with trees keeping up with them a lot quicker and there are LOTS of damage opportunities for everyone to get their dps in.  The only real risky thing in multi-player is you need to be more on guard about its stomp attack b/c its fired by proximity and another player might trigger it so you have to be ready to react at any time vs solo where you know when you will trigger it every time.

fr 10k hp toad would be waaaaay too little for how much damage opportunity there is on this boss.  There is very little downtime in multiplayer.  Even solo 10k would be too little.

Dfly has a great balance of health for a strong boss.  Bosses are not supposed to be super weak like Deerclops.  If you want to do a lot of direct combat solo you probably be using a combat focused character.  There are plenty of options now and they can all clear dfly and other bosses pretty quick.

[lenship2]

1 hour ago, Hungry French said:

Misery Toadstool should have approximately 10000 hp.

misery toadstool's 99999 hp is literally the reason why i love it so much though

[Mike23Ua]

11 hours ago, Shosuko said:

You can turn damage taken to low and get effectively the same thing - the boss will be just as long but it will be much more forgiving.  You can also use rollback to easily reset a fight for more practice.  All of the fights are pretty realistic fights solo with every character if you put the time into learning it.

This isn't an MMORPG where we have 50+ people in a fight making solo completely unrealistic and Klei already provided the training wheels.  The only way health scaling would go is UP because having 4+ characters in a fight turns even misery toad into a joke.

Honestly if you want my unheld back opinion I think a good majority of these forum users including yourself just got used to bosses & mobs having higher health and either A: You Adapted to that or B: You see it as extra challenge.

However: You can’t deny that the mobs and bosses were designed with the intention that you will have at least one other player helping you fight them and obviously Two people dealing out damage at roughly the same time is going to make it die a heck of a lot faster.

Even groups of Deadly Brightshades are designed with the intention that you will have at least one other player- One person can lure the 3 closely grouped up vines outward & away whilst the other chops them away one by one.

But Dont Starve & Don’t Starve Together have always been a game with OPTIONS-

And no… I do not mean choosing to blast Crab King in the face with Pirate Canons or Spamming him with 40 Bee Mines, I mean that prior to generating a world the player can alter various different settings to change many of the games spawn rates and behaviors.

All without needing to download PC exclusive Mods.

So certainly you can see the point of view of players who would enjoy lowered health on bosses and mobs so the game feels more fair for Solo players who may not be as skilled as you or maybe doesn’t want to spend 45 minutes whittling away at bosses designed for multiple players?

I don’t understand why the game can’t have toggles to limit minion spawn amounts on a solo player, or for bosses not to be a 30+ minute grind..

In a game with so many OPTIONS the LAST THING we need to do is limit them.

[Hungry French]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

fr 10k hp toad would be waaaaay too little for how much damage opportunity there is on this boss.  There is very little downtime in multiplayer.  Even solo 10k would be too little.

10,000 hp is about 4 minutes of battle. Is that not enough?)

 

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

Dfly has a great balance of health for a strong boss.  Bosses are not supposed to be super weak like Deerclops.  If you want to do a lot of direct combat solo you probably be using a combat focused character.  There are plenty of options now and they can all clear dfly and other bosses pretty quick.

Good balance Dragonfly hp 5500 hp (for DST )

1 hour ago, lenship2 said:

misery toadstool's 99999 hp is literally the reason why i love it so much though

And who would stop her from leaving such a hp ? Some want to fight against normal toadstool. Others vs Giga Fatty Frog.

[Maxil20]

5 minutes ago, Hungry French said:

10,000 hp is about 4 minutes of battle. Is that not enough?)

Misery toad is pretty much a hyper endurance fight. Given how you are meant to go way out of your way to get it, and the fact you really only need to do said fight once, It’s the only boss where solo it should realistically take ~8+ minutes, especially now that we have ways to counter the sporecaps that isn’t just constant weather pains. 10K HP would be more in line for normal toad, and even then that might be slightly too little (?).

[Hungry French]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

idk what group you fought misery with...  but last time I did it with 4 players it died so quick I thought we didn't flip it to misery.  Toad is a LOT easier with multiple players b/c you can all deal with trees keeping up with them a lot quicker and there are LOTS of damage opportunities for everyone to get their dps in.  The only real risky thing in multi-player is you need to be more on guard about its stomp attack b/c its fired by proximity and another player might trigger it so you have to be ready to react at any time vs solo where you know when you will trigger it every time.

What kind of players were they ? 4 Wilsons kill Misery Toadstool in about 8-10 minutes.
3 Wolfgangs and Warly ?

2 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

Misery toad is pretty much a hyper endurance fight. Given how you are meant to go way out of your way to get it, and the fact you really only need to do said fight once, It’s the only boss where solo it should realistically take ~8+ minutes, especially now that we have ways to counter the sporecaps that isn’t just constant weather pains. 10K HP would be more in line for normal toad, and even then that might be slightly too little (?).

 8 minutes ?

[Yuuko]

33 minutes ago, Hungry French said:

10,000 hp is about 4 minutes of battle. Is that not enough?)

 

Good balance Dragonfly hp 5500 hp (for DST )

Absolutely not.  Dfly with 5k hp would be over so fast you might not even get lavae spawns...  that would be a very anti-climactic fight.  Fights should be aimed at the 6-14 minute range for solo imo.  This is where I'm in the fight enough to feel like my choices matter, and how I approach the fight matters.  5k health I'd just kill it like any other mob and probably not even realize it.  Damage opportunity on dfly is pretty high, its not like AFW with a shield phase.

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

But Dont Starve & Don’t Starve Together have always been a game with OPTIONS-

And no… I do not mean choosing to blast Crab King in the face with Pirate Canons or Spamming him with 40 Bee Mines, I mean that prior to generating a world the player can alter various different settings to change many of the games spawn rates and behaviors.

 

quotes when I bring up world gen settings as a solution to a problem

tells me world gen settings should be the solution to the problem...

Spoiler

idk what to say - yes I have gotten used to it, and so can any one else.  Dfly is a pretty big step up for a player, an accomplishment I personally put a lot of work into.  When I first defeated dfly it was with about 10 football helmets and a stack of perogies.  I used a wall, and would have difficulty tracking the lavae blowing up on the other side and often died to getting stomped by her going into rage mode.  These were very frustrating for me and I even came onto the forums to complain about it - but when push comes to shove what I needed to do, what I did do, was get better at the game.

Dfly is a great introductory "hard" boss.  It challenges your endurance with its health pool, your timing to kite with its lunge attack, your ability to think with lavae spawns (not just build a wall, but using ice staff or fighting them requires quick reactions and inventory control.)  This was a necessary hill to climb so I could approach the rest of the content, bqueen, afw, cc, etc.

I recently finished the fight in another new way for the speed run challenge - completing the actual boss fight portion in just 1.5 minutes !!  The dfly fight has evolved my game play in many different ways, and I still have more room to grow.  Dfly is my top favorite boss in the game.  I love fighting her in many different ways with different characters and perks.  She is the most re-playable boss imo

This is a game of real knowledge and real skill.  You learn how the game works and all of the options, and you learn the timing and strategies, and you practice them and get good.  Its not an MMO or a roguelike with meta-progression.  You don't get to win just because you play long enough.

[Baark0]

Ideally both. My vote is for caves though since sitting on a boat gets boring really quick.

[Hungry French]

5 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

Misery toad is pretty much a hyper endurance fight.

But at the same time it is extremely easy. Giving the boss a huge pile of hp is the dumbest crap a player or developer can come up with to make the fight harder. This works in very rare cases. 
Difficult bosses will not let you out even beyond a minute or two minutes of a fight and will force you to see the screen of death dozens and hundreds of times in a row, and not stretch the fight for half an hour with a boss who has almost 0 variety of attacks and musical accompaniment.

[Yuuko]

13 minutes ago, Hungry French said:

What kind of players were they ? 4 Wilsons kill Misery Toadstool in about 8-10 minutes.
3 Wolfgangs and Warly ?

 8 minutes ?

1) You know that player purposefully set out to do the fight in the longest way possible yeah?

2) I love Warly, solo and in teams.  Is picking Warly somehow cheating or restricted?  Are other people not allowed to do this?  Do you not play what I feel is the best character in the game?  The most friendly of co-op partners?

I think we had Wicker, Warly, and Wormwood, and probably Woodie...  I don't remember it, it was some time ago.  I rarely fight mistery b/c I don't build mega bases and there is literally no reason to fight it otherwise lol

3 minutes ago, Hungry French said:

But at the same time it is extremely easy.

and yet here you are complaining about it lol

Endurance is part of the fight.  It is also not easy as you have a lot of aggro control, and tasks to complete in addition to juggling its kiting patterns.  I do agree misery overstays its welcome a bit in solo but lets be real - you do not need to be able to fight the RAID of raid bosses any easier...  Of all challenges in DST this is the one you need the least in the world...

[Maxil20]

6 minutes ago, Hungry French said:

But at the same time it is extremely easy. Giving the boss a huge pile of hp is the dumbest crap a player or developer can come up with to make the fight harder. This works in very rare cases. 

This is one of those cases. The reason toad has so much health is by comparison, all of its other attacks/gimmicks aside from the signature sporecap summoning are very easy to manage. The boomshrooms/sporeclouds can easily be moved out of the way, and it’s speed is the slowest of any boss mob in the game that can move. You are essentially fighting a tank, and the length of the fight can be seen as such. You are also not only intentionally going out of your way to fight it, you are also intentionally making said fight harder as well. There are also ways you can make said fight easier, ranging from weather pains to bringing an army of treeguards to fight (misery) toadstool.

[Hungry French]

24 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Absolutely not.  Dfly with 5k hp would be over so fast you might not even get lavae spawns...  that would be a very anti-climactic fight.  Fights should be aimed at the 6-14 minute range for solo imo.  This is where I'm in the fight enough to feel like my choices matter, and how I approach the fight matters.  5k health I'd just kill it like any other mob and probably not even realize it.  Damage opportunity on dfly is pretty high, its not like AFW with a shield phase.

6-14 minutes ? This is an extremely bad boss since he can't kill you in such a time.  Not to mention the music in DST, which lasts 30-45 seconds. And the bosses have almost zero variety of attacks.
For 14 minute boss fight, the boss should have under 30 attacks and a soundtrack for 14 minutes. 
Why in DS all bosses except Quacken allow you to hit 2-4 times maximum. When in DST bosses make a window of 6-10 hits.

10,000 health for Misery Toadstool is still very generous, because she received it only because she allows herself to be hit 10 times in a row.

It would be created as a boss for DS. She would have an attack speed of 2-3 hits. And about 5000  health ( The closest hp that Klei would give her ).

You can count as you like. But DS hp is the golden mean between health and boss activity.

Someone may think that 100k hp Misery Toadstool is not enough, but 1.00.000 is good for solo. Will you go kill 1m Misery ?

[Hungry French]

18 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

This is a game of real knowledge and real skill.  You learn how the game works and all of the options, and you learn the timing and strategies.  Its not an MMO or a roguelike with meta-progression.  You don't get to win just because you play long enough.

You can't even imagine how difficult the bosses in other games would be if the battle with them lasted 10+ or 30 minutes.

And at the same time it would be much more interesting because the bosses have more than 3 actions for the whole battle.

 

20 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

This is one of those cases. The reason toad has so much health is by comparison, all of its other attacks/gimmicks aside from the signature sporecap summoning are very easy to manage. The boomshrooms/sporeclouds can easily be moved out of the way, and it’s speed is the slowest of any boss mob in the game that can move. You are essentially fighting a tank, and the length of the fight can be seen as such. You are also not only intentionally going out of your way to fight it, you are also intentionally making said fight harder as well. There are also ways you can make said fight easier, ranging from weather pains to bringing an army of treeguards to fight (misery) toadstool.

She has so many hp, because the developers wanted to make x2 to the boss for a joke. 
Toadstool was made for 6 people. + surcharge.

[Maxil20]

19 minutes ago, Hungry French said:

She has so many hp, because the developers wanted to make x2 to the boss for a joke. 

Again, you literally go out of your way to make the boss fight harder for yourself. By turning it into misery, you accept the fact you make the fight substantially more difficult. There is nothing stopping you from not doing this and just fighting normal toad unless you desire the guaranteed glowcap and napsack blueprints, 2 of the funcap blueprints, and/or the alternative festive adornment, and you only need to do the fight once for the former 2.

[CuteC]

17 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

Again, you literally go out of your way to make the boss fight harder for yourself. By turning it into misery, you accept the fact you make the fight substantially more difficult. There is nothing stopping you from not doing this and just fighting normal toad unless you desire the guaranteed glowcap and napsack blueprints, 2 of the funcap blueprints, and/or the alternative festive adornment, and you only need to do the fight once for the former 2.

The thing stopping me is that I do not ever want to interact with toad again and to do that I NEED the napsack blueprint to dupe skin, obviously not a fun task because the game WILL save mid fight cuz of how long it is, why in the world is it so long, it drags out for 7 years and it often reaches a point where everyone gives up due to frustration.

[Maxil20]

2 minutes ago, CuteC said:

The thing stopping me is that I do not ever want to interact with toad again and to do that I NEED the napsack blueprint to dupe skin, obviously not a fun task because the game WILL save mid fight cuz of how long it is, why in the world is it so long, it drags out for 7 years and it often reaches a point where everyone gives up due to frustration.

It really depends on what you are trying to go for. I normally only seek out toad when I want to use glowcaps for base building, and by then you probably have a pretty established base to make the prepwork easier. Items like the void cowl/scythe/bone armor/pillars (to block the quake debris) can dramatically speed up the progress of fighting it, and those are available as any character without swapping.

The game will very likely save, but that’s also an issue for any fight if day rolls around…? Worst case, it takes ~5 seconds, and then you have 8 minutes of uninterrupted fighting until the next save.

Don’t get me wrong, it is a very long fight, but one that you should only ever need to do once. Now, personally, I enjoy optional challenges like that where a boss is dramatically empowered if they are a one and done deal. Misery toad encapsulates that, and while I used to really dislike the fight back in the A New Reign days, the changes over the years have made it considerably more tolerable for me.

[CuteC]

10 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

It really depends on what you are trying to go for. I normally only seek out toad when I want to use glowcaps for base building, and by then you probably have a pretty established base to make the prepwork easier. Items like the void cowl/scythe/bone armor/pillars (to block the quake debris) can dramatically speed up the progress of fighting it, and those are available as any character without swapping.

The game will very likely save, but that’s also an issue for any fight if day rolls around…? Worst case, it takes ~5 seconds, and then you have 8 minutes of uninterrupted fighting until the next save.

My point is that it is extremely long, earthquakes are trivial, toad dealing damage is not a problem, fighting against toad is not actually THAT hard, the hard part is trying to endure this fight because it stalls out for so long that there'll be another update by the time you kill her.

[Maxil20]

1 hour ago, CuteC said:

fighting against toad is not actually THAT hard, the hard part is trying to endure this fight because it stalls out for so long that there'll be another update by the time you kill her.

I tried it out myself, rift gear with a scythe + cowl + bone armor and some general prep of 6 glass axes/6 weather pains with a bearger bin of sanity food and repair kits/nightmare fuel to recharge the items took out misery toad in roughly 20 minutes as a 1X damage character with no real special perks for the fight itself (Webber). I completely forgot about the pillars because its 4:30 in the morning for me, but those probably would have shaved off a minute or two so I didn’t worry about the earthquake debris. You could likely shave off a bit of time by taking a bit of time to cobble the arena, as well.

The fight, for reference:

Spoiler

 

Overall, I can see why people don’t like to fight misery, but there are methods ingame that can and will still speed up the fight by a considerable amount, even without swapping characters.

[Masked Koopa]

13 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

I tried it out myself, rift gear with a scythe + cowl + bone armor and some general prep of 6 glass axes/6 weather pains with a bearger bin of sanity food and repair kits/nightmare fuel to recharge the items took out misery toad in roughly 20 minutes as a 1X damage character with no real special perks for the fight itself (Webber).

IMO you're just proving their point here, if unintentionally. 6 weather pains and 20 minutes for a single fight is absurd. That's more than 3 in game days of pretty much just holding F.