Darkness

[Henlikuoth]

Hello, 

I would argue for more darkness in the game.

Currently, everything on the (explored) map is clearly visible, even if there are no light sources. 

Even the areas that have 0 lux and are labeled as "pitch black" can be seen. From a logical standpoint, this does not make a lot of sense. The game has light sources, even early on, like lamps. The player is supposed to use those light sources to create light in a dark environment. Technically, the starting area is nothing but a gloomy, dank cave.

Only natural light sources like shine bugs should emit light in those areas. Maybe Klei can add some bioluminescent plants. That would add to the immersion and atmosphere of the game a lot. 

Optionally, Klei can add a difficulty setting for darkness only. 

I want to be forced to use light sources and fight my way through a dark place where I explicitly can NOT see everything from the start. 

 

[Primalflower]

i find myself exhausted of threads for aimless difficulty in the pursuit of realism in this particular sort of way, with a little caveat at the end describing how if the audience doesn't like it then it can just be an optional setting instead. play with the darkness not excluded mod if you want this experience

[Henlikuoth]

1 minute ago, Primalflower said:

i find myself exhausted of threads for aimless difficulty in the pursuit of realism in this particular sort of way, with a little caveat at the end describing how if the audience doesn't like it then it can just be an optional setting instead. play with the darkness not excluded mod if you want this experience

Other people differ from your view. 

[Primalflower]

23 minutes ago, Henlikuoth said:

Other people differ from your view. 

i think that adding options to the game that actively just suck to play with and make the hardest difficulty settings even more of a painful slog to play through is a bad idea in of itself, not just for the layman experience and the dev time spent on something few will ever acknowledge, but also with the thought in mind that some players find it extremely hard to help themselves to a perceived challenge, and will have a bad time as a result. With darkness in particular I find it so hard to take seriously because the crux of the demand for it comes off to me as just coming from the fact that the lux overlay poorly describes 0 lux as "pitch black", thus breaking some form of immersion for those who think about it too hard, even though absolutely everything from the visuals of the game itself and how you absolutely are not encouraged to place lights down everywhere at all to how the game is depicted in animated shorts disagrees with the thought that everything is actually in complete and total darkness when it has 0 lux on it, meaning the lux overlay is probably exaggerating when it says that everything is in pitch black.

I don't say these things from lack of reference point, I was one of the people who really campaigned for mods like Lights Out and actively played several save files with the mod on its gameplay-effecting settings, and I can say with certainty that this mechanic is better off put into the hands of modders rather than as an option that some pour soul out there feels obligated to subject themselves to.

[Henlikuoth]

1 minute ago, Primalflower said:

...

You put a lot of effort into writing a text with the semblance of a legitimate argument, even though there is literally none.

I won't reply to this because there is nothing substantial to reply to, and it became clear that you have your own subjective reasons for rejecting the idea I outlined. Besides, you tend to devalue people who express ideas that you don't like with condescending and judgmental snippets. You find yourself "exhausted" only because you don't like certain perspectives that differ from yours, that's all. 

The details of designing such darkness in the game are still open to creativity and good ideas. Even only a somewhat darkening shade might already be something I would be happy with. I generally don't play with mods, and I don't believe such a darkness setting should be left with mods only.

I also made clear that there is potential for an increase in atmosphere and immersion if darkness like that is implemented. 

The optional difficulty setting is not a "caveat" but just that: an option.

 

[Primalflower]

1 minute ago, Henlikuoth said:

You put a lot of effort into writing a text with the semblance of a legitimate argument, even though there is literally none.

I won't reply to this because there is nothing substantial to reply to, and it became clear that you have your own subjective reasons for rejecting the idea I outlined. Besides, you tend to devalue people who express ideas that you don't like with condescending and judgmental snippets. You find yourself "exhausted" only because you don't like certain perspectives that differ from yours, that's all. 

The details of designing such darkness in the game are still open to creativity and good ideas. Even only a somewhat darkening shade might already be something I would be happy with. I generally don't play with mods, and I don't believe such a darkness setting should be left with mods only.

I also made clear that there is potential for an increase in atmosphere and immersion if darkness like that is implemented. 

The optional difficulty setting is not a "caveat" but just that: an option.

I recognize that my tone may be condescending when I come into a thread describing how I'm exhausted with the concept behind the thread in its entirety, and for that I apologize, and I reply with the hindsight that I should have stepped back and just came at it with the second thing I said instead rather than immediately blowing it off. Though your text seems to imply that I've... done this before? To which I don't recall, I don't remember me ever being rude in the same sort of way. I've had conversations with you before, and while we didn't come to a conclusion and I may have chosen to only respond to particular bits of the text that I found of particular importance, I don't recall trying to be actively troublesome. I guess, I do genuinely apologize if the words I've chosen in the past were in poor taste..? I hadn't meant to.

Otherwise, I feel like I should... restate my thoughts in a more organized manner, if my previous reply came off as if there was no argument...? I think that implementing darkness (which is to say for the sake of the argument, an off-by-default setting that shrouds the map in a pitch black or otherwise very very dark fog, and perhaps even makes it so duplicants perform worse in darkness) is a very dangerous thing to do, as the way the difficulty settings have been constructed is already very precarious. On some spaced out starts, maxed difficulty all achievements is nearly impossible, which is reason enough to think about the implementation of an additional layer of difficulty, but alongside that, is the concern of... fun. Much of oxygen not includeds difficulty settings slow the game's progression down to a crawl, and I think that darkness is like, the mother of all beasts in this respect. Simply put, darkness would slow the game down significantly, and while that can certainly make progression feel more rewarding, it is my personal opinion that I will defend that the game does not need this in any official capacity.

With that in mind, I feel like I should try and describe my thought behind "some players find it difficult to turn down a challenge". I think that as much as it sucks, there is absolutely a large collection of people who play video games like this one that will play on the hardest settings out of some form of perceived obligation on their part. I do not identify with this label, but I think those people are tangible enough to be worth considering when you think about designing a game with a customizable experience. That is to say, I think that the game, even at it's absolute cruelest and questionably designed, should probably still try to be fun. I think that adding darkness to what is already a very slow and rife-with-manual-labour way of playing the game does not do this any favors. I hope this makes sense, because I think this is the point that holds the most water in my head.

with regards to my thoughts on immersion, I think this is the part of the call for darkness that in some way appeals to me the most, or at least some past part of me, even if It's still a little hard for me to take seriously. the "could this be more realistic?" sort of train of thought is naturally compelling as people who live on earth and the fact that ONI is a game that takes place underground but you're never told or encouraged to place down lights is one of the first things you really think of correcting with that. Ultimately I can only answer subjective thoughts with more subjective thoughts but I think my argument here is that i don't think that something not making sense from a logical standpoint is a good basis for a feature that is primarily sought after for the sake of immersion, when the game presents itself in such a way that actively gives me the impression that it was discluded (or made very small-form in the things it interacts with) on purpose for the sake of a more cohesive experience. I know that this sounds like circular reasoning, but I feel like theres something to this. If there are 20 indicators that a game isn't a gloomy dark cave, and 1 indicator that the game is a gloomy dark cave, then I am inclined to believe that for one reason or another, the latter may be describing something entirely different or using particular wording, rather than that one indicator invalidating the rest of the presentation.

I feel like being frustrated with the thought of options or calling it a "caveat" can come off as unreasonable, but I think the reason I feel that frustration is because I want the game to still be an enjoyable experience even at its worst, and most unforgiving settings, so adding the thought that "it could just be optional" feels like a pointless placation. but I get where you're coming from. I hope my thoughts here make sense.

[asurendra]

You need "Darkness not excluded" mod. It has a lot of settings allowing you to set up difficulty you want. 

[QuQuasar]

I find the idea of darkness as a game mechanic that afflicts the player to be less than fun, but will defer to people who have actually played with the mod installed on that front. 

However, as an aesthetic I absolutely adore the dark, dingy aesthetic of early ONI promotional screenshots. The bright lighting and dark shadows are just so much more atmospheric than the final game.

 

 

[Henlikuoth]

Yes, I saw those images also. And I like them as well. I also find them particularly atmospheric. 

As I said, a possible darkness mechanic needs to be designed well. There are many options for that. 

In my view, a properly done darkness setting would do the following:

- Increase the atmosphere and immersion dramatically, especially concerning a feeling of mystery and a gradual exploration through the dark while discovering various (surprising) things on the way

- Increase the difficulty/challenge for people who like it

- Add many art and design options, like bioluminescent plants, maybe additional glowing animals (aside from the shine bugs), and some tech for equipping the dupes to illuminate the darkness, like flashlights, etc.

A darkness difficulty slider should also be added to the game to adjust the varying degrees of darkness density and other things. Moreover, if anyone does not like darkness at all, the person could put the slider to the lowest rank, which would mean no darkness at all, the same as right now. Then, the person can still play as usual, and at the same time, others have the chance to enjoy the challenges of an enveloping darkness. Only natural light sources would initially illuminate certain limited areas/caves. 

For clarification, I should add that I don't think the darkness should cover the map so that you cannot see one pixel anymore. It would be better if layers of darkness were like shadows or shades that greyed out certain zones. Depending on the difficulty setting, some materials would not yet be identifiable, only if you went there and brightened up the area. 

Options and possibilities abound for this one. But I would like it.

[Jorge Junior]

I wish it were always this dark inside the asteroid.

[pether]

I remember devs saying during one stream they really like darkness mod, but it is one of those they can't really implement into the game, because it would make it too tedious for the players. So it won't happen, but that's where the mods come for help!

[Henlikuoth]

20 minutes ago, pether said:

I remember devs saying during one stream they really like darkness mod, but it is one of those they can't really implement into the game, because it would make it too tedious for the players. So it won't happen, but that's where the mods come for help!

If they add it, including the difficulty slider, everyone is happy because the people who don't want to play with darkness don't have to. 

And the people who enjoy such darkness can play with it.

Also, the success of the darkness mod shows that many people like it.

I hope Klei will implement such a feature in some time. 

[pether]

I mean - I always support more settings and optional difficulty, so I'm not oposing the idea. Indeed, it would be great. I'm just not sure how much Klei wants to do it.

[cyberwarlord]

I'd be happy with the aesthetic alone. Dark an dingy. Fog of war might be a bit much. Maybe a simple implementation. Buff the darkness, remove the light work speed bonus and instead add a massive penalty when in the dark. Balance accordingly. Also add a wider field for motion sensors please!

Personally some task like drinking soda or showering take what feels like a long time and light does not even effect it. This bothers me to no end. 

(Longer showers as a red character trait)

On 10/3/2023 at 3:48 AM, QuQuasar said:

I find the idea of darkness as a game mechanic that afflicts the player to be less than fun, but will defer to people who have actually played with the mod installed on that front. 

However, as an aesthetic I absolutely adore the dark, dingy aesthetic of early ONI promotional screenshots. The bright lighting and dark shadows are just so much more atmospheric than the final game.

 

 

That co2 scrubber placement makes my brain hurt...

[DolphinWing]

I don't think a default OFF mode is not the first priority we will do in a game development. Or maybe it could be a standalone DLC.

[sorafis]

I agree with the darkness as it adds realism and atmosphere to the game.
When a duplicate human moves in the dark without light, it would be realistic if the movement speed was less than half.

Since the manufacturing pods emit light, I assume that ONI was originally developed with darkness exploration in mind.

However, in order to get more "ordinary people" to buy it, they probably decided that darkness was not necessary. I think they decided they couldn't devote the development resources to creating a dark setting and related tools, creatures, and systems for some explorer players.

However, I think there is a possibility that it will be implemented in the future. I would be happy if it were implemented, but I'm worried that as the map gets bigger and the area of activity spreads out, the task of providing light will become more of a hassle.

[blakemw]

On 10/3/2023 at 4:33 PM, pether said:

I remember devs saying during one stream they really like darkness mod, but it is one of those they can't really implement into the game, because it would make it too tedious for the players. So it won't happen, but that's where the mods come for help!

As someone who quite enjoyed the darkness mod, the tedium is absolutely correct, it is super tedious.

Furthermore it doesn't really make sense, in ONI the player is the printing pod which is a semi-omniscient AI, the AI does not see with eyes and does not and should not care about darkness. While technically the printing pod AI should only know about all connected dupes and machines and shouldn't know about what's going on outside the dupe detection radius (unless we imagine dupes scatter sensory nanobots around), the nature of ONI is that the map doesn't change much unless dupes make the change, it's not like an RTS game where the fog of war is hiding stuff which is very interesting like the movements of enemy armies, in ONI it's not strategically interesting if a wild critter is running back and forth in its chamber.

There is a good argument to be made that dupes should not be strongly effected by darkness. Dupes are engineered beings, they clearly have some kind of "Darkvision" like D&D dwarves and goblins and probably some kind of "stonesense" like dwarves. They also have a selection of high tech ray guns that can rearrange matter at a molecular level, so the idea they are carrying much lower tech but still sophisticated ground penetrating radar is not implausible. Now it's not that dupes don't have eyes it's just they aren't completely reliant on their eyes as humans are, like often darkvision is considered to be black-and-white, so they can run around just fine but using machinery with colored buttons goes faster if they can see colors.

So the way I see it, darkness is not only tedious it's also thematically inappropriate. Which makes it fine for a mod.

[cyberwarlord]

15 hours ago, blakemw said:

As someone who quite enjoyed the darkness mod, the tedium is absolutely correct, it is super tedious.

Furthermore it doesn't really make sense, in ONI the player is the printing pod which is a semi-omniscient AI, the AI does not see with eyes and does not and should not care about darkness. While technically the printing pod AI should only know about all connected dupes and machines and shouldn't know about what's going on outside the dupe detection radius (unless we imagine dupes scatter sensory nanobots around), the nature of ONI is that the map doesn't change much unless dupes make the change, it's not like an RTS game where the fog of war is hiding stuff which is very interesting like the movements of enemy armies, in ONI it's not strategically interesting if a wild critter is running back and forth in its chamber.

There is a good argument to be made that dupes should not be strongly effected by darkness. Dupes are engineered beings, they clearly have some kind of "Darkvision" like D&D dwarves and goblins and probably some kind of "stonesense" like dwarves. They also have a selection of high tech ray guns that can rearrange matter at a molecular level, so the idea they are carrying much lower tech but still sophisticated ground penetrating radar is not implausible. Now it's not that dupes don't have eyes it's just they aren't completely reliant on their eyes as humans are, like often darkvision is considered to be black-and-white, so they can run around just fine but using machinery with colored buttons goes faster if they can see colors.

So the way I see it, darkness is not only tedious it's also thematically inappropriate. Which makes it fine for a mod.

Part 1-100% agree. Well put.

 

Part 2 -THATS WHY THE EYES LOOK LIKE THAT!!! That loading screen dupe is looking at your soul. Judging you for your crimes.

But really, if every task required light id be ok with that.

IF options are added. Such as how much light is needed for operating task vs digging. Can we get mining helmet clothing/checkpoint. Combo with gas mask for early game. A room censor for dupes. And more light spread from electric sources. Even if it drops really low it could be enough to dig large areas out quickly early on.

And make non working task faster to compensate. So more time getting work done once the infrastructure is set in place.(Showering, soda fountain ect.)

 

Can't be more tedious then making airlock and laying pipes.

[sorafis]

In the end, I think the degree of darkness is important. Being in the dark and not being able to see anything can certainly be boring.

ONI has nights, during which the asteroid is dark.

"Current ONI night brightness → ONI default brightness"
"Current daytime brightness of ONI → Brightness of illuminated place"

With the above settings, I think ONI can provide players with both a ``atmosphere'' and ``not making the player feel uncomfortable.''

I think the early screenshots are similar to that. I love how bright ONI is at night, and I always wish it was this bright all day long.

[goboking]

This thread is a good opportunity to re-post my favorite ONI pic.  Alas, I've forgotten the creator's name and thus can't give proper credit.

[Henlikuoth]

9 hours ago, goboking said:

This thread is a good opportunity to re-post my favorite ONI pic.  Alas, I've forgotten the creator's name and thus can't give proper credit.

Oh wow, I haven't seen this one before.

Yes, I like it a lot—dark, a sense of mystery, and a slow and gradual exploration of an alien asteroid.

[cyberwarlord]

On 10/23/2023 at 5:32 PM, goboking said:

This thread is a good opportunity to re-post my favorite ONI pic.  Alas, I've forgotten the creator's name and thus can't give proper credit.

Well shizz, you convinced me. A hardcore dark mode would be awesome looking. This is stunning atmosphere from something so simple. No mods. I hope this becomes a thing. Maybe a difficulty update, darkness, Disease progression, Hostile critter variety/ environment behavior changes. 

So unhappy critters could become wild or hostile. Idk.

[cyberwarlord]

8 hours ago, melquiades said:

Add to all that, fall damage, exploding machinery/batteries, corrosive gasses, projectile shooting hostile animals, and genetic abominations pouring out of the temporal tear trying to destroy your base until you close it for good.

Wait....that's don't starve..

[ALCRD]

The colony AI computer you take control of as Player has night vision.

It gotta keep an eye on those crazies at all times

[LeandroBraz]

Having more mechanics that take light into consideration and that affect Dupes directly would make sense. Darkness affecting the player, not so much. This is the kind of game were you want the player to have as much information as possible, and making it harder for the player to access that information won't improve the experience. Once revealed, there's no reason to hide explored areas in darkness, nor to add steps for the player to keep that visible.