Bosses with speed boost rebalance?

[Reiko24]

I know that on stream Klei developers said, that every boss they make is created in such a way, that you don't need speed boosts to beat it.

 

But the new rift content bosses are extremely late game, aren't they?

 

When I watched the "NO HIT" videos, I think they are even easier than their normal counterparts. 

They don't need speed boost to be beaten, but if the player has speed boost (99% probability they do), then the bosses just go down without any risk whatsoever. You just need to make them tired with evading/fire staff using your speed boost.

 

I think the end-game bosses should be made with speed boosts in mind. They looked cool and hard, but now they are cool and easier than their alive counterpart, which I think isn't intended? 

If it's not intended then that's what this feedback is for.

I think deerclops needs new attacks that limit player movement,

Bearger could roar and throw out your hand item + DISABLE SHADOW EQUIPMENT (cuz its lunar, you know? it will disable the magiluminescence).

Varg seemed the hardest out of all those 3, because a swarm of mobs + a miniboss is hard ngl. Easy to get hit.

 

Edit: If anyone wants to see me beat them no hit to prove it, then I will do so. I am by no means a pro player and I don't do any bosses no hit except seasonal.

Edit: With deerclops my point still stands. I admit bearger is harder than he looks, so only deerclops seems like he's the problem

[Mike23Ua]

6 minutes ago, Reiko24 said:

Edit: If anyone wants to see me beat them no hit to prove it, then I will do so. I am by no means a pro player and I don't do any bosses no hit except seasonal.

Well since your offering.. do it on a PC using a KB+Mouse, then turn around and do it AGAIN on an Xbox using a Xbox controller, and then just to be extra sure- Do it Once more on a Nintendo Switch.

I don’t mean to come off as mean, I’m simply trying to prove a point that some things that are deemed by PC players as “Too Easy” can often be barely doable at all with a controller.

Why does Klei think so many Xbox players just put on armor and tank everything?? It’s because trying to dodge/kite is a pain in the butt & it’s far easier to just armor up & tank hits.

I can’t even fight Pigmen the “Intended” way without them punching me, I don’t need bosses who require speed boost items or die.

[Reiko24]

Just now, Mike23Ua said:

Well since your offering.. do it on a PC using a KB+Mouse, then turn around and do it AGAIN on an Xbox using a Xbox controller, and then just to be extra sure- Do it Once more on a Nintendo Switch.

I don’t mean to come off as mean, I’m simply trying to prove a point that some things that are deemed by PC players as “Too Easy” can often be barely doable at all with a controller.

Why does Klei think so many Xbox players just put on armor and tank everything?? It’s because trying to dodge/kite is a pain in the butt & it’s far easier to just armor up & tank hits.

I can’t even fight Pigmen the “Intended” way without them punching me, I don’t need bosses who require speed boost items or die.

I will do it with a controller no problem, gonna record it and send it in this thread

[Frashaw27]

I think the problem with requiring speed boost is that it heavily limits your choices in what you can use in the fight. Imagine you spend several weeks to months to make all these intricate armors and effects for each of them, and then you can't use any of them besides 1 new piece of armor and an amulet that's been in the game for several years at this point because you need the speed to even attempt the bosses. I could see it for 1 or 2 bosses but it certainly shouldn't be the standard to require movement speed things to even stand a chance against the bosses, especially when Klei is trying their hand in having players pick and choose sets.

[Reiko24]

Just now, Frashaw27 said:

I think the problem with requiring speed boost is that it heavily limits your choices in what you can use in the fight. Imagine you spend several weeks to months to make all these intricate armors and effects for each of them, and then you can't use any of them besides 1 new piece of armor and an amulet that's been in the game for several years at this point because you need the speed to even attempt the bosses. I could see it for 1 or 2 bosses but it certainly shouldn't be the standard to require movement speed things to even stand a chance against the bosses, especially when Klei is trying their hand in having players pick and choose sets.

You can use all those armors for all other bosses in the game.

Everyone in the late game has a magi and a walking cane, no problem with that. That's why i think it needs a change

[Capybara007]

When are they gonna recreate or rework bosses with these wonderful ideas of "dont use this very specific item"?

[Reiko24]

39 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Well since your offering.. do it on a PC using a KB+Mouse, then turn around and do it AGAIN on an Xbox using a Xbox controller, and then just to be extra sure- Do it Once more on a Nintendo Switch.

I don’t mean to come off as mean, I’m simply trying to prove a point that some things that are deemed by PC players as “Too Easy” can often be barely doable at all with a controller.

Why does Klei think so many Xbox players just put on armor and tank everything?? It’s because trying to dodge/kite is a pain in the butt & it’s far easier to just armor up & tank hits.

I can’t even fight Pigmen the “Intended” way without them punching me, I don’t need bosses who require speed boost items or die.

 

21 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

When are they gonna recreate or rework bosses with these wonderful ideas of "dont use this very specific item"?

My idea is "use this very specific item", their idea is "dont need to use this very specific item"

Literally everyone has those items after beating celestial champion so whats the problem?

I am just saying, that the lunar Deerclops is as easy as the seasonal one. Late game boss as easy as early game boss? That makes no sense.

Celestial Champion needs speed boosts anyway, so bosses like this exist already.

39 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Well since your offering.. do it on a PC using a KB+Mouse, then turn around and do it AGAIN on an Xbox using a Xbox controller, and then just to be extra sure- Do it Once more on a Nintendo Switch.

I don’t mean to come off as mean, I’m simply trying to prove a point that some things that are deemed by PC players as “Too Easy” can often be barely doable at all with a controller.

Why does Klei think so many Xbox players just put on armor and tank everything?? It’s because trying to dodge/kite is a pain in the butt & it’s far easier to just armor up & tank hits.

I can’t even fight Pigmen the “Intended” way without them punching me, I don’t need bosses who require speed boost items or die.

I don't even play on controller and the controls are extremely funky to me. If you can kill celestial champion on console but cannot beat deerclops no hit with controller, then I dont know even how that happens.

[Capybara007]

Speed is the last of the problems because there are so many items that give you speed, i am going a bit off topic but im comparing how forgiving they are making these lategame bosses considering how klei usually makes bosses

Beequeen doesnt have a good pattern with her bees which is awful boss design meawhile the new deerclops even has a circle that appears everytime he does one of his attacks

As for bearger you dont even need speedboost meanwhile for fw (which while unlinked we could argue comes before mutant bearger) you are meant to use a lazy explorer to avoid bone cage which is realy unfun to farm

Point is, hope they eventually rework bosses with this more forgiving mentality, people might say that more forgiving = more easy = less fun, but currently most dst bosses (ck as an example) are not fun and require a very specific strategy

[Reiko24]

2 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

Speed is the last of the problems because there are so many items that give you speed, i am going a bit off topic but im comparing how forgiving they are making these lategame bosses considering how klei usually makes bosses

Beequeen doesnt have a good pattern with her bees which is awful boss design meawhile the new deerclops even has a circle that appears everytime he does one of his attacks

As for bearger you dont even need speedboost meanwhile for fw (which while unlinked we could argue comes before mutant bearger) you are meant to use a lazy explorer to avoid bone cage which is realy unfun to farm

Point is, hope they eventually rework bosses with this more forgiving mentality, people might say that more forgiving = more easy = less fun, but currently most dst bosses (ck as an example) are not fun and require a very specific strategy

I think that needing a certain strategy for a certain boss is part of the fun, no?

If all the bosses could be defeated with one strategy, then that would be extremely boring.

And again, everyone has a walking cane and magi after they defeat celestial champion.

[Capybara007]

14 minutes ago, Reiko24 said:

I think that needing a certain strategy for a certain boss is part of the fun, no?

If all the bosses could be defeated with one strategy, then that would be extremely boring.

By the way klei designed most bosses, its like they are made in order to limit your strategy as much as possible

Crab king has its claws which make it so if you want to dodge the geisers by moving your boat instead of using the same strategy of ice staves you cant because you get blocked by 500hp claws

Its also extremely unfun for newbies to have to figure out how to approach some mechanics, most beginer streamers i see have a horrible time with toadstool, as they understand they have to chop the mushtrees, but because they dont know the existance of the very specific item (weather pain) they use a normal axe which is so slow when they are done with the last mushtree toad spawns them again

Bosses wouldnt be boring if they could be defeated with one strategy because in literally any game that has bosses you kill them the same way and the fun comes from the attacks the bosses have and how to deal with them

Im not saying specific items for bosses are bad but if the boss is impossible to be defeated with a standard attack and dodge and no really dumb and unintuitive strategies, then its likely a bad boss

[Reiko24]

6 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

 

Im not saying specific items for bosses are bad but if the boss is impossible to be defeated with a standard attack and dodge and no really dumb and unintuitive strategies, then its likely a bad boss

 I agree with the rest of what you said except this. Alright, the bosses need more ways to be defeated, but the ways shouldnt be the same for every boss.

If there's weather pain, add some more things that can make the boss weaker, so you dont need to use one strategy. That would be a good approach imo

[Capybara007]

3 minutes ago, Reiko24 said:

 I agree with the rest of what you said except this. Alright, the bosses need more ways to be defeated, but the ways shouldnt be the same for every boss.

If there's weather pain, add some more things that can make the boss weaker, so you dont need to use one strategy. That would be a good approach imo

Make it so the mushtrees are chopped in 3 axe swings, it could sound broken but it really isnt, and using weather pain will still be more effective

This way newbies dont get frustrated and experienced players have the advantage of knowing how to use weather pain

[Mike23Ua]

45 minutes ago, Reiko24 said:

 

 

My idea is "use this very specific item", their idea is "dont need to use this very specific item"

Literally everyone has those items after beating celestial champion so whats the problem?

I am just saying, that the lunar Deerclops is as easy as the seasonal one. Late game boss as easy as early game boss? That makes no sense.

Celestial Champion needs speed boosts anyway, so bosses like this exist already.

I don't even play on controller and the controls are extremely funky to me. If you can kill celestial champion on console but cannot beat deerclops no hit with controller, then I dont know even how that happens.

Cool video, but.. now fight him again & speed him up so you actually need to use cane/Magi.

Switching between Weapon/Cane/Magi & back again is an extreme pain. 
The less often I have to do it.. the better!

[Reiko24]

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Cool video, but.. now fight him again & speed him up so you actually need to use cane/Magi.

Switching between Weapon/Cane/Magi & back again is an extreme pain. 
The less often I have to do it.. the better!

It's almost the same on PC... Bind your buttons closer together so it's easier for you. I didn't say to "speed him up". Switching between 3 different things is a pain on PC also, that's why I didn't even use magi and switched only my weapon and cane. In my opinion, if you beat celestial champion and cannot switch equipment in your inventory when it just needs one button, then that's a you problem. Don't wanna sound mean, that's just how I worded it.

 

Edit: even beating celestial champion without switching equipment needs more skill than learning to switch equipment, so...

11 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Cool video, but.. now fight him again & speed him up so you actually need to use cane/Magi.

Switching between Weapon/Cane/Magi & back again is an extreme pain. 
The less often I have to do it.. the better!

I have a question, did you beat endgame bosses?

[_zwb]

1 hour ago, Reiko24 said:

I have a question, did you beat endgame bosses?

Mike said he hasn't beaten Celestial Champion yet because too difficult for solo or something, correct me if I'm wrong

[Reiko24]

9 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Mike said he hasn't beaten Celestial Champion yet because too difficult for solo or something, correct me if I'm wrong

Then why is he trying to interfere, when I am talking about post-celestial champ content? irrational

 

Edit: 

 

[_zwb]

I just tried fighting crystal deerclops with no speed boost no armour, and yeah it's too easy, you can easily walk out the ice spike hit range(which conveniently clearly marked for you for some reason) twice, then attack it with fire staff, hit her 12 times, and repeat the process. You literally can't get hit at all with the current speed requirements

She definitely could use some buff to make the fight more intense.

[Pedro cc]

this thread gives me flashbacks of kitting Beequen with no speed boost

[Cassielu]

6 hours ago, Reiko24 said:

Cool video, but.. now fight him again & speed him up so you actually need to use cane/Magi.

I think that's what W.A.R.B.I. and Magi are for...

You can equip them all the time, instead of only switching them when you move.

[Reiko24]

1 hour ago, _zwb said:

I just tried fighting crystal deerclops with no speed boost no armour, and yeah it's too easy, you can easily walk out the ice spike hit range(which conveniently clearly marked for you for some reason) twice, then attack it with fire staff, hit her 12 times, and repeat the process. You literally can't get hit at all with the current speed requirements

She definitely could use some buff to make the fight more intense.

Yea, 100% this

[Fufuji]

1 hour ago, _zwb said:

I just tried fighting crystal deerclops with no speed boost no armour, and yeah it's too easy, you can easily walk out the ice spike hit range(which conveniently clearly marked for you for some reason) twice, then attack it with fire staff, hit her 12 times, and repeat the process. You literally can't get hit at all with the current speed requirements

She definitely could use some buff to make the fight more intense.

I have tried and using torch instead of fire staff with no speed boost is OK. 20~24 hits can be land in one turn and within 6 turns she's dead. The undead deerclops and bearger could both have some buff.

[_zwb]

20 minutes ago, Fufuji said:

I have tried and using torch instead of fire staff with no speed boost is OK. 20~24 hits can be land in one turn and within 6 turns she's dead. The undead deerclops and bearger could both have some buff.

do you just approach her and tank the freezing damage?

[Fufuji]

Just now, _zwb said:

do you just approach her and tank the freezing damage?

the freezing damage is about 8 per turn. I'm not sure if taking this damage can be considered "NO HIT" lol

[_zwb]

Just now, Fufuji said:

the freezing damage is about 8 per turn. I'm not sure if taking this damage can be considered "NO HIT" lol

It is no hit, but not no damage

[Mysterious box]

10 hours ago, Reiko24 said:

I know that on stream Klei developers said, that every boss they make is created in such a way, that you don't need speed boosts to beat it.

 

But the new rift content bosses are extremely late game, aren't they?

 

When I watched the "NO HIT" videos, I think they are even easier than their normal counterparts. 

They don't need speed boost to be beaten, but if the player has speed boost (99% probability they do), then the bosses just go down without any risk whatsoever. You just need to make them tired with evading/fire staff using your speed boost.

 

I think the end-game bosses should be made with speed boosts in mind. They looked cool and hard, but now they are cool and easier than their alive counterpart, which I think isn't intended? 

If it's not intended then that's what this feedback is for.

I think deerclops needs new attacks that limit player movement,

Bearger could roar and throw out your hand item + DISABLE SHADOW EQUIPMENT (cuz its lunar, you know? it will disable the magiluminescence).

Varg seemed the hardest out of all those 3, because a swarm of mobs + a miniboss is hard ngl. Easy to get hit.

 

Edit: If anyone wants to see me beat them no hit to prove it, then I will do so. I am by no means a pro player and I don't do any bosses no hit except seasonal.

Edit: With deerclops my point still stands. I admit bearger is harder than he looks, so only deerclops seems like he's the problem

The problem here for me is if you make the bosses with speed boosts intended to face them then by default Weremoose is going to need a speed boost and I don't want to imagine the war brewing with people crying op again if the weremoose gets buffed again...