So Walter's gotta be the next skill tree right?

[Mysterious box]

I say this because the new blowdart outclasses him so hard it's actually kinda crazy you attack at melee attack speeds with it and it does 68 damage per hit with a cost of only hound teeth as ammo. While Walter's slingshot does 51 damage per hit max unless you count the trinket costing marble or nightmare fuel and thulecite at half the speed of melee. I really love the update so far but this feels like making the lazy explorer refuellable with with seeds and giving it all Wortox's soul hopping mechanics. What do you all think?

[GenomeSquirrel]

the problem with using dps as a metric is having wolfgang perform the job better; it might be better to give up that race, and hope he gets something to sets him apart, perhaps shorter animation times or more statuses. walter might need more brainstorming time than characters with a more defined design

 

 

 

 

 

[Mysterious box]

Just now, GenomeSquirrel said:

the problem with using dps as a metric is having wolfgang perform the job better; it might be better to give up that race, and hope he gets something to sets him apart, perhaps shorter animation times or more statuses. walter might need more brainstorming time than characters with a more defined design

 

 

 

 

 

The slingshot is what defines him though much like how damage is what defines Wolfgang you can't really give up on the slingshot to give him something else without just changing his entire focus it's like suddenly giving Warly a sailing theme. We can't have the ranged character being bad at ranged combat.

[MondayNight]

Those new Howlitzer Darts will either be nerfed during this Beta or Walter in future will surely have a Skill Tree branch that amps up his rate of fire, maybe even to 50% or more. Regarding Walter ST, 3 main branches are pretty clear anyway: mentioned Slingshot rate-of-fire, Survival Gear and Woby perks. Still with the Howlitzer weapon's introduction am confidently sure Walter's Slingshot will be improved via his future Skill Tree.

[webberer]

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

We can't have the ranged character being bad at ranged combat.

Agreed, totally.

[nimzowitsch10]

It's not like walter's slingshot is actually effective in the late game anyways, weak projectiles compared to regular blowdarts. In lategame worlds I mass produce blowdarts which are twice as better as walter's slingshot. I really don't know how you would balance this out, maybe give walter a rapid fire slingshot? I've never really played walter like ever because he's kind of useless even in the current version of DST

[Mysterious box]

6 minutes ago, nimzowitsch10 said:

It's not like walter's slingshot is actually effective in the late game anyways, weak projectiles compared to regular blowdarts. In lategame worlds I mass produce blowdarts which are twice as better as walter's slingshot. I really don't know how you would balance this out, maybe give walter a rapid fire slingshot? I've never really played walter like ever.

His slingshot is actually great against brightshades as it's lets you completely skip their disarming phase and it's very useful against the shadow trio. I'd imagine it's very useful against the new bearger and deerclops as well with their much larger hitboxes. The problem is that ranged combat is becoming more and more readily available with each method being much much better than than his slingshot in most situations due to the lack of attack speed nerfs and just having straight up better damage be it Wolfgang's dumbells, brightshade bombs, or this new howlitzer.

Basically Walter's slingshot was never great but it's becoming rapidly outdated with what's being released.

[GenomeSquirrel]

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

The slingshot is what defines him though much like how damage is what defines Wolfgang you can't really give up on the slingshot to give him something else without just changing his entire focus it's like suddenly giving Warly a sailing theme. We can't have the ranged character being bad at ranged combat.

but how do you make him the best ranged character is still ambiguous, particularly is you want to play it from different angles with a skill tree

[kroban]

I really hope Walter is next on the Skill Trees line, as much as I love these last updates they murdered him with each one. All of his traits are now on items:

- Slingshot got obliterated by the hound darts

- His storytelling sanity boost on campfires got indirectly nerfed with the Lamb's Idol

- His "not losing sanity" positive trait is now on Void's armor for any other character, so its no longer an "unique perk".

And sure he was already a low tier character, but man, now hes literally useless in all aspects, which is sad....

[Mysterious box]

49 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

but how do you make him the best ranged character is still ambiguous, particularly is you want to play it from different angles with a skill tree

Not really all you'd need to do is bring his damage and speed more in line with what modern ranged gear offers and possibly offer him more unique and useful special rounds.

[Gashzer]

Doesnt the new long range weapon not require you to be in the end game rifts and to kill 3 lunar mutated bosses? Doesnt seem like it replaces the slingshot at all. 

And as ive discussed before. Slingshot is Walters sideperk anyway so if a super late game item replaces it who cares?

Wolfgang/wigfrid combat perks still get replaced by brightshade swords and double bone armours so even if you are playing as wes the combat feels the same as them.

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

The slingshot is what defines him though much like how damage is what defines Wolfgang you can't really give up on the slingshot to give him something else without just changing his entire focus it's like suddenly giving Warly a sailing theme. We can't have the ranged character being bad at ranged combat.

Woby is what defines Walter. Not his slingshot. 

[Arcwell]

This is new to tuning.lua this update.

So devs are acknowledging we will eventually get better ammo for Walter. Does that mean Walter's skilltree is next update? Who is to say? 

[somethin]

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Woby is what defines Walter. Not his slingshot.

Nope. BOTH defines Walter. There's a reason he has his own array of ammo recipe in the crafting tab and his whole combat schtick revolves around not getting hit. And both Woby and the slingshot is outclassed a beefalo and now the hounds tooth dart gun. Which is why the skill tree needs to focus on both aspect to bring him up to the modern standard.

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, somethin said:

Nope. BOTH defines Walter. There's a reason he has his own array of ammo recipe in the crafting tab and his whole combat schtick revolves around not getting hit. And both Woby and the slingshot is outclassed a beefalo and now the hounds tooth dart gun. Which is why the skill tree needs to focus on both aspect to bring him up to the modern standard.

Walters skill tree should be at most 25% slingshot skills, 50% woby skills and the rest his niche scout survival skills. Woby better get most of the attention in his skill tree.

The hounds tooth dart gun is a very very late game weapon. I wouldnt use that as a reason to buff the slingshot to the moon. By the time you are at that point in the game alot of characters get replaced by late game crafts.

[Mysterious box]

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Woby is what defines Walter. Not his slingshot. 

Not really maybe in the future Woby could be more fleshed out but as it stands Woby is training wheels until you feel like taming a beefalo. Unlike the slingshot she doesn't offer a unique experience and she's generally not what most Walter players pick him for (assuming they're not just using him to move pieces...)

14 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Doesnt the new long range weapon not require you to be in the end game rifts and to kill 3 lunar mutated bosses? Doesnt seem like it replaces the slingshot at all

I mean Wolfgang and brightshade bombs were already greatly threatening his role here before this anyway this was just the nail in the coffin.

15 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

And as ive discussed before. Slingshot is Walters sideperk anyway so if a super late game item replaces it who cares?

If the slingshot is a side perk that just means he doesn't have a main perk.

16 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Wolfgang/wigfrid combat perks still get replaced by brightshade swords and double bone armours so even if you are playing as wes the combat feels the same as them.

Wolfgang's combat perks don't get replaced his skill tree makes him stronger alongside them and Wigfrid's skill tree will likely be the same also the only combat perk that is weaked post rift for Wigfrid is her damage output and that's not the only combat related perk she has.

[Gashzer]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Not really maybe in the future Woby could be more fleshed out but as it stands Woby is training wheels until you feel like taming a beefalo. Unlike the slingshot she doesn't offer a unique experience and she's generally not what most Walter players pick him for (assuming they're not just using him to move pieces...)

So what you are saying is Woby needs more work done as she is more lackluster than Walters slingshot?? Great we cleared that up, hopefully klei focuses primarily on buffing Woby first then.

[Mysterious box]

Just now, Gashzer said:

So what you are saying is Woby needs more work done as she is more lackluster than Walters slingshot?? Great we cleared that up, hopefully klei focuses primarily on buffing Woby first then.

The opposite really Woby works fine as training wheels but in it's current state the slingshot fails at it's intended role.

To give a better comparison Woby is like Wigfrid's starting spear and armor.

[Gashzer]

20 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

The opposite really Woby works fine as training wheels but in it's current state the slingshot fails at it's intended role.

Slingshot works perfectly fine as its intended role. Yes you may have to grind abit but if you do, you can kill many bosses without getting touched. 

No perk should be "training wheels", you are just proving that woby needs more attention to fix to become a permanent perk than what the slingshot requires.

A beefalo is obtained much sooner to replace woby than brightshade bombs and the new gun are obtained to replace the slingshot. Do you not agree? So by this logic woby is at a more dire need of buffing!

Edit: what if the slingshot is "training wheels" for the new gun? 

[Mysterious box]

24 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Slingshot works perfectly fine as its intended role. Yes you may have to grind abit but if you do, you can kill many bosses without getting touched. 

You can kill many bosses without getting touched with melee combat as well with much less resources and time invested the grind is simply not worth it for a weapon that is overall more time consuming with little to no pay off not to mention all the added time going into a boss fight increases the odds of things going poorly there's no real inherent advantage to using the slingshot over melee and I don't think that's should be how it's intended.

 

24 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

No perk should be "training wheels", you are just proving that woby needs more attention to fix to become a permanent perk than what the slingshot requires.

Why not? It's not like Woby offering a easier beefalo experience for people not ready for a beefalo has no place in dst. Where as the slingshot on the other hand is just not worth the additional effort in nearly all scenarios. The difference is clear Woby has a area she shines the slingshot doesn't which is why it needs the most attention.

24 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

A beefalo is obtained much sooner to replace woby than brightshade bombs and the new gun are obtained to replace the slingshot. Do you not agree? So by this logic woby is at a more dire need of buffing!

The problem is even with the absence of the brightshade bomb the slingshot is still mediocre and always has been before the bombs were even conceived. 

Think about it his slingshot is expensive, his slingshot takes up a ton of space, his slingshot is weak, his slingshot is slow, his slingshot is really bad at changing targets, his special rounds are very niche or just inferior to existing alternatives every aspect is mediocre.

[Gashzer]

12 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

You can kill many bosses without getting touched with melee combat as well with much less resources and time invested the grind is simply not worth it for a weapon that is overall more time consuming with little to no pay off not to mention all the added time going into a boss fight increases the odds of things going poorly there's no real inherent advantage to using the slingshot over melee and I don't think that's should be how it's intended.

From my experience as a Walter main this just isnt true to me. I dont think Klei intended the player to fully replace melee combat with the slingshot anyway hence we have a few special rounds. And thats why Walter doesnt have 0.75x damage like Wendy.

For example killing CC, phase 1 melee fighting only is the way to go. Phase 2 using slowdown rounds and melee is the way to go. Phase 3 using the slingshot only with thulecite rounds is the best way. 

The slingshot i believe, was intended to be used alongside melee like the example above, not to fully replace it. And if used this way you do not have to grind a million rounds for the slingshot to be useful.

 

12 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Why not? It's not like Woby offering a easier beefalo experience for people not ready for a beefalo has no place in dst. Where as the slingshot on the other hand is just not worth the additional effort in nearly all scenarios. The difference is clear Woby has a area she shines the slingshot doesn't which is why it needs the most attention.

Why do you even play Walter? Sounds like you hate him but you main him i presume?

[Mysterious box]

6 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Why do you even play Walter? Sounds like you hate him but you main him i presume?

People are most critical of the things they enjoy and conceptually I like Walter I also like playing him even if I know I'm playing suboptimal in order to get fun out of his core gimmicks that doesn't mean I'm blind to his faults nor that I don't want those areas improved. For example a Winona main isn't gonna go "Well all's fine with Winona what you think she has alot of problems? Well you must hate her is all she's perfect!"

17 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

From my experience as a Walter main this just isnt true to me. I dont think Klei intended the player to fully replace melee combat with the slingshot anyway hence we have a few special rounds. And thats why Walter doesnt have 0.75x damage like Wendy.

For example killing CC, phase 1 melee fighting only is the way to go. Phase 2 using slowdown rounds and melee is the way to go. Phase 3 using the slingshot only with thulecite rounds is the best way. 

The slingshot i believe, was intended to be used alongside melee like the example above, not to fully replace it. And if used this way you do not have to grind a million rounds for the slingshot to be useful.

Here in lies the flaws with this reasoning his special rounds don't support melee combat slowdown rounds only make a noticeable impact when your using the slingshot for ranged combat, freeze rounds firing slower means that once again means your better off keeping your distance when using them whereas your better off using a ice staff for melee combat, poop pellets realistically have zero uses in melee combat. Finally swapping between the slingshot and melee weapon in combat generally isn't worth it since you get a even longer wind up on the slingshot after you've stopped firing. The reason Walter doesn't have lower damage is his other downsides already de incentivize close combat. Even if we were to try to use it as a side arm despite how flawed that is it doesn't stop you from neednig to grind a million rounds because what are you gonna go and grind like 60 cursed rounds then go all the way back to the station every time you round out? Or only going to use a few pieces of marble and wait for a more to grow back? No it doesn't make any sense if your commiting to it there's no good reason to do half steps as at that point your wasting your own time.

[chirsg]

2 hours ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

Those new Howlitzer Darts will either be nerfed during this Beta

Do you have any idea what I went through to get those? Do you know how hard the clops fight is? The bearger one was absurd. All for it to get nerfed. That's a shot in the guts

[Mysterious box]

9 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Do you have any idea what I went through to get those? Do you know how hard the clops fight is? The bearger one was absurd. All for it to get nerfed. That's a shot in the guts

Did you try exploiting their new weaknesses?

[chirsg]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

Did you try exploiting their new weaknesses?

I didn't. I fought them fair. 

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

Here in lies the flaws with this reasoning his special rounds don't support melee combat slowdown rounds only make a noticeable impact when your using the slingshot for ranged combat, freeze rounds firing slower means that once again means your better off keeping your distance when using them whereas your better off using a ice staff for melee combat, poop pellets realistically have zero uses in melee combat. Finally swapping between the slingshot and melee weapon in combat generally isn't worth it since you get a even longer wind up on the slingshot after you've stopped firing. The reason Walter doesn't have lower damage is his other downsides already de incentivize close combat. Even if we were to try to use it as a side arm despite how flawed that is it doesn't stop you from neednig to grind a million rounds because what are you gonna go and grind like 60 cursed rounds then go all the way back to the station every time you round out? Or only going to use a few pieces of marble and wait for a more to grow back? No it doesn't make any sense if your commiting to it there's no good reason to do half steps as at that point your wasting your own time.

I never make ice staffs unless for crab king, one slot for 20 uses and it takes 2 freezes most of the time isnt worth it. However 60uses for one slot and double freeze power that the freeze rounds provide make them more than worth it for general day to day use. I use them all the time in the ruins to freeze clockworks to divide an conquer.

Slowdown rounds help to kite bosses like dfly, ancient guardian, CC. Also if you use followers like bunnymen for extra damage, slowdown rounds help them to catch up to bosses like bee queen. Also its good if you want to give breathing room from a boss to heal etc.

Poop rounds are poop i agree. 

60 gold rounds in my slingshot is perfect for them niche moments i want to use it. Killing big/small tentacles, finishing off mushgnomes, drawing aggro of koalafants, killing vargs/ewecus while mounted on woby, weakening moslings before killing moose, i really enjoy killing spulmonkeys that are annoyingly following me but stay outside melee range. Ill get some extra gold rounds for killing phase 2 klaus. Killing brightshades for the first time before i get a brightshade sword. Aggroing nightmare werepig.

Thulecite rounds are pretty cheap to stockpile for killing bee queen and phase 3 CC. Doesnt even feel inconvenient to hoard them for these fights.

Plenty of use to be had with the slingshot even with basic gold rounds. Marble rounds are a waste of time unless you have made some merm huts and a clever disguise to farm them with in the late game.

Slingshot is no where near as bad as people make it out to be.