Skillset balancing critique and suggestions, without the hissyfit.

[Canis]

I have a bit of critique with how Klei is handling the new skillset, so Im going to do what people should be doing in the first place and lay their critiques down without going on a whole "Modern klei sucks theyre ruining the game!!!!" spheel. (Yes, I know I was one of those people years ago. Character development!)

Anti-Downside Perks:
Perks like Wolfgang removing the gym minigame and Woodie being able to ignore the stat penalties of the kitschy idols seem like a nice QoL at first glance, but I dont think skills are best suited for removing the downsides of a character, but should instead elaborate on their upsides. Characters admittedly have been undergoing powercreep since 2019, regularly removing their big downsides - I don't particularly mind this as long as the character fundamentally changes the way I play the game - but removing the little downsides the characters have may have the consequence of making them feel boring to play.

Gaining Insight / Readily-Available Skills:
 I like the way we gain insight, unlocking it with daycount and having it permanently unlocked for the character. However, it can be easily cheated (c_skip 1000), and besides from the planar-related skills the new toys and tricks are available day 1 (see Woodie's walking stick.) I think it could be cool and add more incentive to stick to a certain character rather than swap away by adding skills that can be unlockable normally but activate once you reach a certain day count threshold with the character. I cant really make a good example as skills would have to be designed *around* the idea rather than retroactively assigned. This idea would also deal with people going into a local lobby, c_skip 1000 to get all of the insight into a character they dont play, and then join a public server with the exact same benefits as someone that has committed their time and effort to the same character.

Give thoughts and criticisms, please!

[MadMatt]

4 minutes ago, Canis said:

but removing the little downsides the characters have may have the consequence of making them feel boring to play.

Idk about Wolfgang but I assure you no one in the history of Woodie gaming ever thought stat loss across the board is a "fun" downside. In fact, it's quite the opposite since it restricts using your perk more than a couple times. I can understand the argument for removing full moon transformations, but c'mon. Losing 20 health and 15 sanity is just not interesting since it means you resource dump more or avoid using Wereforms more than once or twice in a given moment, nothing else.

[Canis]

1 minute ago, MadMatt said:

Idk about Wolfgang but I assure you no one in the history of Woodie gaming ever thought stat loss across the board is a "fun" downside. In fact, it's quite the opposite since it restricts using your perk more than a couple times. I can understand the argument for removing full moon transformations, but c'mon. Losing 20 health and 15 sanity is just not interesting since it means you resource dump more or avoid using Wereforms more than once or twice in a given moment, nothing else.

Youre right actually, I shouldve used the full moon as a better example. Cheers.

[Szczuku]

'Won't transform cuz of full moon' should instead make Woodie loose sanity, like Wilba's necklace in Hamlet. That way there'd still be at least a crumb of a downside, instead of a total deletion

[Golden Daemon]

if anything, i think woodie shouldve had a baseline ability to control lunar transformation (wilba amulet was very good, its both a prevention method on transformation and also has its own cost of taking up a slot so there is a choice)  instead of having it on a skill tree, and then maybe make his lunar side skill be something like wereform enhancement while under moonlight (increased stats , functionality , etc) rather than just removing the transformation (since being lunar aligned should reward the player , not remove punishments).

[Frashaw27]

7 minutes ago, Canis said:

Wolfgang removing the gym minigame

I personally don't think it really falls under the "Anti-Downside" tier. It doesn't really negate any of the problems with the mightiness system, just makes it the same as dumbells where you wait for the meter to max out, but if that's the player progative, I think it's one of the least egregious ways to implement it imo. While I do agree that the perks shouldn't completely negate a character's downside, I think it's fine if it required a significant amount of points invested to do so. I think the idol negation is a decent balance between a significant amount of points to unlock it while also not completely locking him out of everything. Like the moon negation is a bit on the harsher side but I feel it would've been better recieved balance wise if took a handful of points to get to it like Wolfgang's 30% damage boost instead of a single point (which isn't a downside, but I don't really think there's another perk that represents that idea of drawback negation).

19 minutes ago, Canis said:

certain day count threshold

While I'm not entirely partial to the idea, I do think the perfect middle ground would be to have more skills locked behind objectives that aren't just "survive x days" so that it both satiates the player wanting people to put in more effort to get these better skills while allowing for some inter-world progression, which is the biggest appeal of the system imo. I do think that the cheating argument isn't exactly constructive to this coversation either as while it true, that would also be true for anytime of gatekeep that Klei would decide to put in place. "Kill x number of unique bosses?" godmode + free crafting for dark swords, "Prototype x number of survival things?" just give yourself the materials, etc. If people were going to cheat before, I don't see how adding another barrier to them is gonna stop them. While I won't say it is shouldn't disgarded entirely, I just feel that instantly assuming that everyone is going to cheat for all the points is not productive in identifying what are the issues with the system, like how it doesn't really relate to any specific character, and what to do differently besides changing the goal post to make it somewhat more difficult to cheat through it.

[cybers2001]

59 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

'Won't transform cuz of full moon' should instead make Woodie loose sanity, like Wilba's necklace in Hamlet. That way there'd still be at least a crumb of a downside, instead of a total deletion

There is a downside, it costs insight, and you can't take the shadows ignore you perk. If you try spending a season farming a caves forest farm, you'll know how annoying it is to get hassled by shadows while trying to clear a forest as werebeaver before losing form.