My honest opinion about recent updates

[Mysterious box]

14 hours ago, Shosuko said:

What you're doing here is about the same as when people try to ruin Winona by doing things like forcing you to play as her to use her crafts.  Its not a good way to make a game, at least not a game like DST.  Maybe if you're into a puzzle game where there is 1 correct solution to every problem you can force people to find that one piece you required they have BUT in a game like DST featuring emergent gameplay the idea is to have less restrictions, not more.

For example - the problem with the ocean isn't that the hambat or football helmet are too strong, its that the ocean lacks anything that covers those roles.  Unless you put a pig on your boat you're going to need to return to land for resources.  The ocean content requires combat with things like cookie cutters, sharks, etc but does not provide the tools needed.  Similarly boat patches require bee stingers, other crafts require rocks and gold, etc.  This is one of the reasons people feel the ocean is empty, it has these content voids that require you return to the mainland rather than continue your journey.  No nerfs are needed to address this, the ocean just needs these things added in some way*

As for versioning spider silk - I think that is a bad idea.  There is nothing special about these harder spiders that they should be giving out t2 silk, or special about an umbrella that it should require super tier 2 silk.  Its enough that the tree spiders act as a source of spider silk while at sea, we don't need to require you go fight them, they are just an option for getting these resources without leaving your boats.  Similarly the spiders on lunar island, or in the caves are more dangerous ways to obtain the same resources without returning to the mainland / surface.

Gonna be real it's clear you missed the entire point of the changes it wasn't to eliminate choice. The football helm and hambat aren't op the problem with them is that they're convient enough that anything not straight up much better than them pointless. The point of the changes was to encourage choice rather than give the illusion of variety where you intentionally putting more effort for inferior variants.

For example in a world where the football helm doesn't exist a better balance is struck between the cookie cutter cap, eye mask, and shelmet. The cap has lower defense but is more readily available, the shelmet has high defense but requires a but of grinding, and the eye mask has defense in between but requires more care when using but is recoverable. Add the football helm to the mix and now questions like why go to the ocean or caves for these variants when this is far more convenient? It's not true variety.

I'm not saying the ocean and the caves don't need more content but at the end of the day the mainland is a closed survival loop and in that case those areas will never truly be important? Just optional content you go to explore when you're bored. Even if we get more content in these zones they won't feel special if they're so disconected. Also why is making special variants of spiders worth fighting a bad thing? It's so silly how the best to handle any spider that isn't normal is to avoid them.

15 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Similarly nerfing eyebrella is nonsensical.  The problem here is largely that there isn't much else to do with an eyeball, so everyone builds an eyebrella.  Seriously, unless you're hard farming AG and resetting ruins you're going to have more eyeballs then guardian horns, and those are literally the only two crafts you can make.  If we give eyeball more crafts then the competition might lead some players to use something like a raincoat for wetness protection instead.  For heat the eyebrella kinda sits alone, but that is again the problem - the eyebrella is alone.  We need more summer options so the eyebrella isn't the only solution.  tbh the umbraella is a step in the right direction here, especially if their intention is to give it a deployable feature - that would easily compete with the eyebrella, again no nerfs required.

The reason I say push it back to the endgame is because it's anti variety it's fine to have a item like that but other clothing gear should get its time to shine as well no? We can simply make new uses for the eyeball as well. The overall idea is to encourage variety and creativity not limit it.

[Yuuko]

20 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Gonna be real it's clear you missed the entire point of the changes it wasn't to eliminate choice. The football helm and hambat aren't op the problem with them is that they're convient enough that anything not straight up much better than them pointless. The point of the changes was to encourage choice rather than give the illusion of variety where you intentionally putting more effort for inferior variants.

The reason I say push it back to the endgame is because it's anti variety it's fine to have a item like that but other clothing gear should get its time to shine as well no? We can simply make new uses for the eyeball as well. The overall idea is to encourage variety and creativity not limit it.

The cookie cutter cap is bad whether football helmet exists or not.  The game is based around 80% damage reduction being standard.  Most armors that block less than this do so for a reason.  By having a lower absorption they can be paired with a higher absorption armor and they have extended life.  The cookie cutter cap having only 70% makes it bad.  PLUS as I said the scarcity of pigskins at sea mean we already have a need for something like cookie cutter helm - people don't use it much because its bad, not because they want to go back to land to get pig skins constantly.  Football helmets are not the reason people don't use cookie cutter helms.

Eyeball isn't anti-variety.  You can only get up to 100% rain protection, and there is little value in wearing any less.  The reason people use eyebrellas are as I listed before.  Eyes are delivered to you more automatically, have little other practical use, and people prefer items that match with backpack (umbrella + cane + pack is common.)  Raincoat and umbraella both have the same 100% wetness protection and are equally viable.

[GenomeSquirrel]

I consider Cookie cutter and Shelmet more as a trivia joke armor than a serious option I’d actively seek out, especially if I still have log suits, they served me well enough against dragonfly and ruins. Take away that and marble armor, and I’ll just use other creatures to fight my battles.

[Well-met]

the problem with shelmet is its abysmal drop rate

[Mysterious box]

36 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

The cookie cutter cap is bad whether football helmet exists or not.  The game is based around 80% damage reduction being standard.  Most armors that block less than this do so for a reason.  By having a lower absorption they can be paired with a higher absorption armor and they have extended life.  The cookie cutter cap having only 70% makes it bad.  PLUS as I said the scarcity of pigskins at sea mean we already have a need for something like cookie cutter helm - people don't use it much because its bad, not because they want to go back to land to get pig skins constantly.  Football helmets are not the reason people don't use cookie cutter helms.

It really isn't, your cheap alternative to the football helm becomes a logsuit but not everyone wants to use the bodyslot for armor and that's where the cap comes in as a cheap alternative for the headslot and for something to be bad you need something to compare it to this is why balance is important.

Also pig skin being scarce is just untrue a world generates about 10 plus pig heads on sticks at bare minimum that's a ton of pigskin and even if you don't set pigskin farms all you need is monster meat and a pig for on-demand pigskin there's a reason that a large majority of players never move on from football helmets. They're very abundant with decent protection so it removes all needs experiment with anything around the same level beyond because I feel like it and that's not driving creativity. And before you bring up the character perks that shouldn't be involved in balancing of armors.

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

Eyeball isn't anti-variety.  You can only get up to 100% rain protection, and there is little value in wearing any less.  The reason people use eyebrellas are as I listed before.  Eyes are delivered to you more automatically, have little other practical use, and people prefer items that match with backpack (umbrella + cane + pack is common.)  Raincoat and umbraella both have the same 100% wetness protection and are equally viable.

Even if you ignore backpacks the bodyslot generally has better options for things you want to wear continuously making head armors and protections mormore valuable inherently.

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

It really isn't, your cheap alternative to the football helm becomes a logsuit but not everyone wants to use the bodyslot for armor and that's where the cap comes in as a cheap alternative for the headslot and for something to be bad you need something to compare it to this is why balance is important.

Also pig skin being scarce is just untrue a world generates about 10 plus pig heads on sticks at bare minimum that's a ton of pigskin and even if you don't set pigskin farms all you need is monster meat and a pig for on-demand pigskin there's a reason that a large majority of players never move on from football helmets. They're very abundant with decent protection so it removes all needs experiment with anything around the same level beyond because I feel like it and that's not driving creativity. And before you bring up the character perks that shouldn't be involved in balancing of armors.

Even if you ignore backpacks the bodyslot generally has better options for things you want to wear continuously making head armors and protections mormore valuable inherently.

Except its 70% defense which is trash.  Either people will just use a log suit (seriously, you don't have to use a backpack 24/7, trust me you can drop it while you fight at least lol) or just become more dependent on ruins crown / dreadstone / eyeball hat.  No one is going to go out to sea for 70% defense unless a LOT of other options are taken off the table b/c 70% is just BAD.  Like seriously that is taking +50% damage over a football helmet or log suit, +200% damage over a ruins crown or dreadstone, or +500% damage over a night armor or marble suit.  Its just a bad item.

Pig skin is scarce *on the ocean.*  Are you reading my posts?  I'm talking about going out on a boat and living out there.  Pig skin is only an option if you put a pig on your boat - OR - return to mainland, which is my whole point.  The ocean doesn't provide enough to actually stay out there.  Every time you leave you need to check off things like what armor and weapons you need for the trip, and before those are exhausted you have to return to mainland.  The ocean needs more content to fill these gaps so you can actually just stay out there.

When I am running around without a backpack I think the raincoat does just fine if I need to protect against rain or lightning damage.  The eyebrella is great too, but the point is they are both equal options here.  Its not my fault players love their backpacks, and its not Klei's job to change that.  Nothing is wrong or bad about the eyebrella, we have both a body and hand slot 100% wetness protection item and players can use whichever they prefer.  If eyebrella is being used more its not because it has OD stats lol

[Mysterious box]

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Except its 70% defense which is trash.  Either people will just use a log suit (seriously, you don't have to use a backpack 24/7, trust me you can drop it while you fight at least lol) or just become more dependent on ruins crown / dreadstone / eyeball hat.  No one is going to go out to sea for 70% defense unless a LOT of other options are taken off the table b/c 70% is just BAD.  Like seriously that is taking +50% damage over a football helmet or log suit, +200% damage over a ruins crown or dreadstone, or +500% damage over a night armor or marble suit.  Its just a bad item.

Feels like your intentionally ignoring what I said other bodyslot items exist that are very high value besides the backpack but sure I guess the backpack is the only reason despite needing less and less space as the game goes on. That being said it's not like it being 70% is some ironclad rule that can't change either nor is everyone capable of clearing the ruins so I can still see some people going for it as a alternative.

By the way the idea is to make going out to sea a important aspect of survival not to only make people go out to sea for a cookie cutter cap.

 

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Pig skin is scarce *on the ocean.*  Are you reading my posts?  I'm talking about going out on a boat and living out there.  Pig skin is only an option if you put a pig on your boat - OR - return to mainland, which is my whole point.  The ocean doesn't provide enough to actually stay out there.  Every time you leave you need to check off things like what armor and weapons you need for the trip, and before those are exhausted you have to return to mainland.  The ocean needs more content to fill these gaps so you can actually just stay out there.

Difference of opinion really I don't think it should offer a way to cut the mainland out of it's survival loop I feel like it's pointless if we go that route. I mean what would be the point in the ocean if it's completely unrelated to the mainland and vice versa? The ocean without a doubt needs more content overall but not so you can just replace the mainland but so that they both complement each other rather than competing.

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

When I am running around without a backpack I think the raincoat does just fine if I need to protect against rain or lightning damage.  The eyebrella is great too, but the point is they are both equal options here.  Its not my fault players love their backpacks, and its not Klei's job to change that.  Nothing is wrong or bad about the eyebrella, we have both a body and hand slot 100% wetness protection item and players can use whichever they prefer.  If eyebrella is being used more its not because it has OD stats lol

I'd say it's more so backpacks are just a no brainer for the first few days of setting up base and bringing things back home and when they wear out their welcome mags are there to replace them with speed boosts the body slot just has better general purpose items than the headslot heck we only recently got a headslot item that picks up items for us and even then it's still quite inferior to the lazy forager. But that aside would it really ruin your experience if the eyebrella's effect was migrated to post fuel weaver?

[Yuuko]

15 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Feels like your intentionally ignoring what I said other bodyslot items exist that are very high value besides the backpack but sure I guess the backpack is the only reason despite needing less and less space as the game goes on. That being said it's not like it being 70% is some ironclad rule that can't change either nor is everyone capable of clearing the ruins so I can still see some people going for it as a alternative.

By the way the idea is to make going out to sea a important aspect of survival not to only make people go out to sea for a cookie cutter cap.

 

Difference of opinion really I don't think it should offer a way to cut the mainland out of it's survival loop I feel like it's pointless if we go that route. I mean what would be the point in the ocean if it's completely unrelated to the mainland and vice versa? The ocean without a doubt needs more content overall but not so you can just replace the mainland but so that they both complement each other rather than competing.

I'd say it's more so backpacks are just a no brainer for the first few days of setting up base and bringing things back home and when they wear out their welcome mags are there to replace them with speed boosts the body slot just has better general purpose items than the headslot heck we only recently got a headslot item that picks up items for us and even then it's still quite inferior to the lazy forager. But that aside would it really ruin your experience if the eyebrella's effect was migrated to post fuel weaver?

70% is not worth it no matter what so like, duh.  Which is exactly what I was saying - we need a real armor option out at sea, the cookie cutter cap ain't it.  It needs a buff, or another armor option that is actually worth using.  On land you get 80-95% protection, at sea only 70%.  Its not good.

Also again we do NOT need to try and force people to go out there.  There is plenty of stuff already drawing people out there anyway.  The problem is only that staying out there isn't a great option because you have to come back every time you hit a resource void.  The ocean needs to have more of a positive feedback loop enabling a player to stay out there more.

Backpacks are overrated.  They are useful, but ppl religiously use them over many other options.  That is all in the player's heads though - just like when everyone thought meatballs were OD and ice was the best filler in the game.  People can change this any time they want, the game doesn't need to force them to if they don't want to.  We have 100% wetness options for all 3 slots currently, no reason to nerf eyebrella just b/c people find that to be the option they choose more often.

The new umbraella being deployable is gonna change a lot of that though

[Mysterious box]

Just now, Shosuko said:

Also again we do NOT need to try and force people to go out there.  There is plenty of stuff already drawing people out there anyway.  The problem is only that staying out there isn't a great option because you have to come back every time you hit a resource void.  The ocean needs to have more of a positive feedback loop enabling a player to stay out there more.

We don't need to force them I agree but it should be highly encouraged in it's current station our incentives outside of aiming for the endgame is mostly fluff. My idea is to make ocean life important for long term survival while offering unique and fun new content to explore on top of that you will encounter incidentally on your path to survive. Not for immediate survival but longer term which is why I made the spider and rain gear change eventually you would need to go to the ocean for a better experience in spring which is hours in ideally we could also make more less useful rain gear available purely using mainland materials for those who are adamant on not going to sea. To be clear I want the mainland and sea to be interconnected in their experience because I feel that would lead to the best overall experience whether or not that's the right call is another matter though I guess.

 

11 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Backpacks are overrated.  They are useful, but ppl religiously use them over many other options.  That is all in the player's heads though - just like when everyone thought meatballs were OD and ice was the best filler in the game.  People can change this any time they want, the game doesn't need to force them to if they don't want to.  We have 100% wetness options for all 3 slots currently, no reason to nerf eyebrella just b/c people find that to be the option they choose more often.

The new umbraella being deployable is gonna change a lot of that though

It's not like I don't agree that the backpack is overrated long term but the reason for shuffling the eyebrella is I don't feel that it represents equal value with it's alternatives.

But again remember that my proposed list of changes weren't meant to be a complete list nor am I expecting anything I said to be implemented. What that list represented was a idea to make other options seem equally enticing while making the world feel more interconnected. 

[Mike23Ua]

Well now that we know that there’s defiantly going to be more skill trees for characters I want to think about the Pro’s & Cons of that.

Using Wolfgang as an example- Klei removes his Speed Boost Bonus, only to Reinstate it (slightly altered) later in his new Skill Tree.

This got me to think what other possibilities a Skill Tree could provide- so I want to talk in depth about my favorite character Wendy.

A lot of people praised her rework, but I personally found it to be well, to put it nicely- Highly Lacking.

Shes like a One Trick Pony who’s only perk is Hehehe Abigail Kill Crowd of Mobs

When Klei Reworked Wendy they completely gutted some of the original Challenge that was involved in playing her (Abigail’s flower going on a Cooldown, Needing to kill a mob near the flower after it blooms to summon Abby etc)

However.. with the Introduction of Skill Trees this got me to thinking what if they “Nerf” Wendy? As in: Increase Abby’s Downtime inbetween summons but allow us to spec the skill tree to speed up the flowers bloom rate again or increase the distance that Sisturn will give sanity to players nearby.

she can get perks to more easily track see lost items for Pipspook, or more Mourning Glory Yields.

Klei can also dive deeper into what I feel like was a Missed Opportunity: Wendy is literally a character with her own “Ghost” Follower.

so logically I would want Abigail to be able to do everything a dead human players “Ghost” Can do- such as haunting flowers to turn them into evil flowers, or haunting Pigmen to force them to Werepigs, etc..

It would be so cool to add more depth to Wendy- 

Maybe she can befriend angry poltergeists and plunder gravesites with no repercussions from the ghosts..

Or she can have 2-3 Pipspook followers at once which may even provide some crazy effects such as Increasing Wendy’s Sanity.

the possibilities are literally endless with these skill trees

It feels very un-like Dont Starve.. but if done right, it’s something I can get use to

My only concern is that klei Re-Reworking the entire cast with Skill Trees will take away from time they could’ve been doing more important stuff such as new biomes or reworking old seasons etc..

[Copyafriend]

10 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Well now that we know that there’s defiantly going to be more skill trees for characters I want to think about the Pro’s & Cons of that.

Source on this? I wanna read/listen to it

1 minute ago, Copyafriend said:

Source on this? I wanna read/listen to it

Scratch that i hadnt seen the beta