My proposition of making the game more difficult, all the while eliminating most forms of undertelegraphed world griefing. Comment on thread for how you would raise game difficulty without base destruction

[Mysterious box]

4 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

The issue is that a lot of survival players think that it needs to be the main focus and every other playstyle should suffer because of it.

The problem I see at least is that both sides completely conflict with each other and I know how much hate this gets but the only way I see this being solved in a way that makes the most people happy is to either lock content behind settings or make different game modes. I can't see a solution for Kiel where most players are happy with the end product without it because as it stands we either make disconnected challenges we can choose to partake in or we add more survival content no matter which side Kiel supports a lot of people are going to be upset.

That being said I feel like there's too much negative connotations with using the settings for a idealized play experience I have to imagine it's very demoralizing to people who like to change settings or even use relaxed mode. Kiel could probably fix this by changing the settings to some of the pub servers so there's not such a huge focus on concept of the "pure" experience and some player hosted pub servers may even follow in line.

14 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Yeah but walking away from them still makes them optional.  You never had to fight anything in DS from the very beginning really.

I mean that's true of most games some even encourage it. It's only optional from the prospective that we should have to kill every boss we come across we have to keep in mind dst is a survival game not just a fighting game despite combat being at the forefront. Personally I love the very idea of a of a big bad who's absurdly strong and fleeing is your best option in fact there are games built around that very concept. Back when I was new that was actually how I handled Deerclops after realizing I wasn't skilled enough to handle him alone that definitely didn't make me think Deerclops was a optional threat.

[Mike23Ua]

My take is pretty simple: and it’s probably the one Klei should follow. Not because I suggested it- But because it’s how “They” (the game designers/animation artists that work at Klei) Portray the fictional world that is Don’t Starve Together

Watch all the games animated shorts ALL OF THEM back to back & you’ll quickly notice that the animated shorts portray this harsh, miserable experience for the Survivors- Where as in actual Gameplay it’s mostly peaceful base building?

An example would be the Hook, Line & Inker update, in this trailer we see Wilson fishing & then while fishing he catches a Hostile Squid that starts attacking him, as hilarious as that may be… these squids can’t even actually be “caught” while fishing and in fact the only way to get them to attack you is if you attack them first.

A good majority of this so called “hostile, harsh, bizarre land” is completely neutral to you until YOU initiate Combat with it.

Does anyone not see the problem here?

If your going to make a trailer where players return to camp after pigs have raided their food stash, and this is the world I’m intended to be lead to believe I’m playing in.. then Actual Gameplay should at least HALF reflect on that.

Otherwise- Start making your cinematic trailers portray the happy, peaceful Jolly land that is the constant where Pigmen greet you with a smile and dance.

[gamehun20]

28 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

My take is pretty simple: and it’s probably the one Klei should follow. Not because I suggested it- But because it’s how “They” (the game designers/animation artists that work at Klei) Portray the fictional world that is Don’t Starve Together

Watch all the games animated shorts ALL OF THEM back to back & you’ll quickly notice that the animated shorts portray this harsh, miserable experience for the Survivors- Where as in actual Gameplay it’s mostly peaceful base building?

An example would be the Hook, Line & Inker update, in this trailer we see Wilson fishing & then while fishing he catches a Hostile Squid that starts attacking him, as hilarious as that may be… these squids can’t even actually be “caught” while fishing and in fact the only way to get them to attack you is if you attack them first.

A good majority of this so called “hostile, harsh, bizarre land” is completely neutral to you until YOU initiate Combat with it.

Does anyone not see the problem here?

If your going to make a trailer where players return to camp after pigs have raided their food stash, and this is the world I’m intended to be lead to believe I’m playing in.. then Actual Gameplay should at least HALF reflect on that.

Otherwise- Start making your cinematic trailers portray the happy, peaceful Jolly land that is the constant where Pigmen greet you with a smile and dance.

just a few words for ya.

cut-scene logic. How many times have you seen a cut-scene in a game like that's like "augh monsters are attacking the people of this village and locals are killed on sight" and then in game the npc villagers are actually attacked by the monsters and killed? I'm guessing not a lot. That's because nobody is required or is requiring any company to make cut-scenes and the actual game 1:1 to each other. Why? you may ask, because it limits creativity and expression having slight disconnection between trailers (that are made to show the wacky world) and the game is fine because again it can give more personality to characters and creatures like the pigmen raid from "Disconnected" is a great scene to show that these pigs are still hostile and will wreck your manure if you are not ready even if they don't attack on sight.

[Yuuko]

5 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

The problem I see at least is that both sides completely conflict with each other and I know how much hate this gets but the only way I see this being solved in a way that makes the most people happy is to either lock content behind settings or make different game modes. I can't see a solution for Kiel where most players are happy with the end product without it because as it stands we either make disconnected challenges we can choose to partake in or we add more survival content no matter which side Kiel supports a lot of people are going to be upset.

That being said I feel like there's too much negative connotations with using the settings for a idealized play experience I have to imagine it's very demoralizing to people who like to change settings or even use relaxed mode. Kiel could probably fix this by changing the settings to some of the pub servers so there's not such a huge focus on concept of the "pure" experience and some player hosted pub servers may even follow in line.

 

They do not conflict with each other, but you gotta look at what is actually challenging to your survival b/c having boulders randomly drop on structures around you isn't it.  The new cave ins add zero survivability danger, they are just as easy to survive as any other cave in.  The only thing they added is destroying structures.  When that was changed, they are literally as forgettable as old caveins, except now you have boulders piling up.

Quit defending mechanics as "survival" mechanics when they don't actually do anything about your survivability.

Quit pretending the people who build megabases aren't also surviving all of the content as is, and in the same line wanting more challenging content.

The idea that there is some riff of different players trying to pull the game in different directions is false.  The problem is the things that are added need to actually be challenging to our survival, not nuisances that give us petty tasks every 20-ish days, and not punishments that damage us no matter what we do.

 

Default settings are the standard way to play.  This is another thing I think people really *need* to understand.  Yes you can turn off wildfire, but turning it off is turning off an element of the game.  Its limiting the experience and violating expectations.  If you're talking about the different challenges of the world and someone gives their advice, but they are playing no-sweat mode surely you can see how their advice is completely worthless.  They aren't overcoming any obstacles by switching to no-sweat mode, and same for turning settings off in the worldgen.  I don't care if you don't understand this part, but stop using "you can turn it off" as a basis for any argument.  It will never be the right thing to say.

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

They do not conflict with each other, but you gotta look at what is actually challenging to your survival b/c having boulders randomly drop on structures around you isn't it.  The new cave ins add zero survivability danger, they are just as easy to survive as any other cave in.  The only thing they added is destroying structures.  When that was changed, they are literally as forgettable as old caveins, except now you have boulders piling up.

As I've said in the past whether rain and boulders stay is besides the point. My suggestions on the boulder mechanic were under the assumption the mechanic would stay which is why I tried to make it tied to survival the potential of our things getting smashed was very much tied to our survival but we lacked counter play or even time to react to them removing structures being targets at all was what made it have nothing to do with survival and if you don't understand what I mean imagine if Wildfires only happened away from plants and structures and the resulting fire actively avoided burning them. The rain mechanic I didn't care for much at all my main gripe was that it doesn't have a reason for existing the first draft was too intense and the second too mild while rendering the umbrella useless. Basically your coming at this from the perspective that a lot of people are lately. "If you don't support my thoughts clearly you must have loved the original draft with no problems or complaints." Which is exactly what I was accused of during moon quay when I wanted the mechanic tweaked to a better state.  I think the boulder mechanic could be worked into something interesting if given time but the first and second drafts definitely aren't it nor do I think boulders sticking around afterwards was ever a good idea but if you go through these forums there's an awful lot of people implying it.

19 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Quit pretending the people who build megabases aren't also surviving all of the content as is, and in the same line wanting more challenging content.

I'm not assuming this of megabasers at least not from the angle you may be assuming because you seem to be tying to tie challenges to survival. Adding a new boss fight or mobs in some random corners of the world with no worldly reason to visit them isn't survival that's just a random challenge but before we get another misunderstanding this doesn't mean the only way to make new survival challenges is to disturb base however if we want to make these things related to survival we do need ways of making the player have to care about them which would mean introducing problematic mechanics that would increase the need to engage with them and this is where it seems megabasing players take issue and no I'm not just talking about acid rain or boulders but the potential of future mechanics that work this way. My personal assumption and correct me if I'm wrong is that mega base players want to go out and experience content but then come back and hang at their base with no interconnectivity making it feel like they need to experience it but on my side of the coin I want that content to have some importance to our survival beyond a new tool that trivializes x task or y task.

35 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Default settings are the standard way to play.  This is another thing I think people really *need* to understand.  Yes you can turn off wildfire, but turning it off is turning off an element of the game.  Its limiting the experience and violating expectations.  If you're talking about the different challenges of the world and someone gives their advice, but they are playing no-sweat mode surely you can see how their advice is completely worthless.  They aren't overcoming any obstacles by switching to no-sweat mode, and same for turning settings off in the worldgen.  I don't care if you don't understand this part, but stop using "you can turn it off" as a basis for any argument.  It will never be the right thing to say.

If ever this was a topic for me to disagree with it would be this assumes there is one true experience and everything else is a lesser or cheating that's a very limiting viewpoint even more so since this game is a SANBOX survival game. Tweaking settings isn't limiting the experience or violating expectations they're there to enhance the experience for players I know you don't mean to at least from my understanding but this is legitimately a viewpoint that often comes from gatekeeping and elitism. Your not harming the experience by removing mechanics you don't like or find stressful your making the game more enjoyable for your experience not living up to some invisible arbitrary code of honor that was never meant to apply to don't starve together. If people want to overcome obstacles at their own pace that's fine that's the nature of a survival sandbox if people want a more relaxed experience for whatever reason that's not cheating the experience or ruining their expectations for the game. 

 

53 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I don't care if you don't understand this part, but stop using "you can turn it off" as a basis for any argument.  It will never be the right thing to say.

I don't use it as the basis for every argument but saying the ability to turn content off has nothing to do in the conversation where people might not like the direction content is heading or like certain aspects of content is just plain silly to me. You can't please everyone and pretending we can and that turning off content that might ruin the experience for some people is something to be looked down on is silly if we're so obsessed with the purist experience then we shouldn't be playing a sandbox game or don't starve together should stop being a sandbox. 

[Yuuko]

7 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

The problem I see at least is that both sides completely conflict with each other and I know how much hate this gets but the only way I see this being solved in a way that makes the most people happy is to either lock content behind settings or make different game modes. I can't see a solution for Kiel where most players are happy with the end product without it because as it stands we either make disconnected challenges we can choose to partake in or we add more survival content no matter which side Kiel supports a lot of people are going to be upset.

 

Its not about your opinion on boulders, its about your opinion that survival content, content that threatens us is somehow unable to coincide with content that supports creativity and that these players are somehow mutually exclusive groups.

[Mysterious box]

Just now, Shosuko said:

Its not about your opinion on boulders, its about your opinion that survival content, content that threatens us is somehow unable to coincide with content that supports creativity and that these players are somehow mutually exclusive groups.

My mindset on that comes from the constant backlash against the idea of consequences from failure not implementation but the very idea of it and no I don't mean unavoidable consequences. Maybe I'm wrong but I feel that is indeed a split in the community.

[Mike23Ua]

For @Shosuko Klei could change Boulder Quakes so that they drop just one Large Boulder that hits the ground forming a massive crater which THEN Nightmare Creatures pour out the hole and into the World and they would STILL not find it as a Survival Challenge because to them they’ve probably progressed to the point that they’d welcome it as Free Nightmare Fuel. Also the giant Boulder will cause the ground to tremble waking up Depth Worms so they come to attack at the same time- but even then this would not be challenge to them- They would Welcome it as free crockpot filler.

And to be quite honest I’d love to know what this particular forum users Idea of a “survival challenge” even qualifies as- because from what I’ve seen and read: It seems nothing Klei ever adds seems to scratch that itch for them.

Im not trying to be a jerk or anything, but really- What’s it gonna take for You to feel challenged?

For me: Completely Optional Biomes I NEVER need to go visit or Bosses that I literally can summon when I’m good and damn ready to fight them ISN’T it.

 

[chirsg]

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

but stop using "you can turn it off" as a basis for any argument.  It will never be the right thing to say.

based

[Copyafriend]

On 6/16/2023 at 8:06 AM, Mike23Ua said:

I actually have dare I say this: “Fun” having to rebuild my base when disaster strikes, it gives me a reason to actually LEAVE my base & go gather the resources to rebuild and repair whatever gets destroyed- More importantly

It is actively the most annoying thing in any extensive base building game that i actually try in.

Yes i spent 4 hours on just decorating, no it is NOT AT ALL fun for four hours of work to be destroyed, no, i am not in any more danger because this happened.

 

secondary thought: an environmental effect that destroyed food kept in your inventory and ice and salt boxes would be pretty effective at improving difficulty while being completely counterable with current mechanics (bundling wraps)

 

[Yuuko]

23 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

For @Shosuko Klei could change Boulder Quakes so that they drop just one Large Boulder that hits the ground forming a massive crater which THEN Nightmare Creatures pour out the hole and into the World and they would STILL not find it as a Survival Challenge because to them they’ve probably progressed to the point that they’d welcome it as Free Nightmare Fuel. Also the giant Boulder will cause the ground to tremble waking up Depth Worms so they come to attack at the same time- but even then this would not be challenge to them- They would Welcome it as free crockpot filler.

And to be quite honest I’d love to know what this particular forum users Idea of a “survival challenge” even qualifies as- because from what I’ve seen and read: It seems nothing Klei ever adds seems to scratch that itch for them.

Im not trying to be a jerk or anything, but really- What’s it gonna take for You to feel challenged?

For me: Completely Optional Biomes I NEVER need to go visit or Bosses that I literally can summon when I’m good and damn ready to fight them ISN’T it.

 

First off - you're absolutely right.  I would LOVE free nightmare fuel deliveries, and depth worms would be awesome b/c they are great fuel for night vision goggles, something that is a bit tougher to farm for without spending a lot of time in the caves.  HOWEVER these can also be challenging.  Getting a reward or a useful resource doesn't mean its not also challenging.  Having a larger boulder fall means paying more attention to dodging, like when AG hits a pillar and you're not just dodging little rubble.  The boulder could leave AntLion style slowing craters which might make the fight against whatever comes out of the hole plus depth worms more challenging.

DST is easiest when you've isolated your target.  Whatever you're doing, if its *only* the thing its usually very easy.  AFW is hardest when nightmare creatures decide to stick around even after you take off the nm amulet b/c they interfere with the pattern you've got going.  Just recently I had a tougher fight against nmwp b/c I had depth worms attack mid way into the fight.  I took a stray hit and dropped to 76 years and was looking for a moment to wind a watch, but between a few worms coming in and the nmwp's dashing and smashing attacks it was quite tough.  I found a moment where nmwp was stalking, dodged a worm and triggered my watch - only for the nmwp to immediately dash up, toss me and smash me for instant death.  Good times.

When people say the game is "too easy" I think they are overlooking either 1) how much precaution they take, or 2) how much skill they've gained.  As I've said before, this isn't a pvp game - the game can only do what its programmed to do.  The game isn't going to magically surprise you with new threads out of nowhere.  If you know how to avoid all of the obstacles then that's just where you're at in the game.  If you want more challenge stop doing everything "best," rush things, limit yourself, play different / more challenging characters idk lol

[Spino43]

1 hour ago, Copyafriend said:

It is actively the most annoying thing in any extensive base building game that i actually try in.

Yes i spent 4 hours on just decorating, no it is NOT AT ALL fun for four hours of work to be destroyed, no, i am not in any more danger because this happened.

 

secondary thought: an environmental effect that destroyed food kept in your inventory and ice and salt boxes would be pretty effective at improving difficulty while being completely counterable with current mechanics (bundling wraps)

 

Mike's argument is "If it's fun for me then everyone else must play the same."

Due to the way don't starve's placement collision box works, there are certain builds that are very hard to replace. For example, a boulder destroys your crock pot that is close to other structures. You want to rebuild it? Then you must remove other structures around it until there's enough space to place down a new crock pot, then rebuild the other structures again. 

If a lot of people complaining avout base destruction without proper countering/avoiding, perhaps there's a reason for it? This reminds me of the Bundling Wrap topic where mike wanted to nerf it even though he has never once used it before.

[Copyafriend]

And now for a fun mental exercise: new survival challenges that arent destructive in nature!

Seasonal modifiers:

begins once any rifts become present in the world

basically there is now a pool of three or more “modifiers” that are tacked onto a season without alerting a player which one is active (doesnt repeat back to back but you could theoretically get 1 then 2 then 1 then 2, itd just be unlucky.)

such as: windy (yes similar to shipwrecked)

pushes objects on the ground around

but:

cools players (good for summer, bad for winter/spring, not deadly for autumn) 

Shadow influence:

only starts after caves events start

You now become insane at a much higher percentage (50% or even higher) 

Nightmare flowers begin spawning randomly throughout the map

lunar rifts spawn less often, in the caves shadow rifts spawn more often.

A minor perk for shadow aligned players

a moderate downside for lunar aligned players (80% sanity for insanity? Or maybe -10 sanity per minute?)

All shadow equipment takes 25% less durability damage (pre and post rift)

Lunar influence:

lunacy completely replaces sanity on the surface

Butterflies are randomly replaced by lunar moths which “plant” themselves

small gestalts now do 10 damage to players

lunar rifts spawn more often, shadow rifts less

Minor perk for lunar aligned players

moderate downside for shadow players

lunar equipment takes 25% less durability damage (crown does 3 more damage)

Rot:

all food rots twice as quickly.

All food drop rates from mobs are halved.

farm crops have a chance of rotting instead of progressing past the seed stage

Any food bushes enter a withered state after a single harvest that cannot be undone until the season ends (does not consume fertilization)

other miscellaneous anti food effects

The drain

characters health is slowly drained away, for wanda her aging is doubled/tripled

A mob that does pure planar damage spawns and hides like a kitcoon (or turns into a fake object), teleporting to a new object when the player gets too far away. When the player gets close it attempts to lunge at the player randomly before rapidly running away, it has only 200 health but is very hard to catch. Killing it makes it go away for five days

And thats only ideas for temporary secondary seasons 

 

 

 

@Mike23Ua

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Spino43 said:

Mike's argument is "If it's fun for me then everyone else must play the same."

Due to the way don't starve's placement collision box works, there are certain builds that are very hard to replace. For example, a boulder destroys your crock pot that is close to other structures. You want to rebuild it? Then you must remove other structures around it until there's enough space to place down a new crock pot, then rebuild the other structures again. 

If a lot of people complaining avout base destruction without proper countering/avoiding, perhaps there's a reason for it? This reminds me of the Bundling Wrap topic where mike wanted to nerf it even though he has never once used it before.

Actually.. I have used bundling wraps, both in Solo DS from smacking a Random Bee Hive and the craft dropping, and In DST when playing with people who killed Bee Queen, Alternatively I’ve also used the Bundle Wrap Substitute that is Holiday Gift Wrap.

All of my concerns about BW are valid because WITHOUT them, Hambats and you food and even captured Animals are on a constant spoil Timer. It’s a vast difference in playing the game.

And I’ve never EVER said people have to play my way- Unless I’m On XBOX and I’m the HOST and I have the rules of the world set a very specific way you can either play by or find someone else’s world to Join but… that’s besides the point.

there is an actual toggle to have Wildfires happen MORE OFTEN did you know that? Cause I bet you didn’t.. if I want to Lock my worlds into a 24/7 Blazing Inferno that’s my business but- more importantly:

Prior to JOINING my world you can view all those lovely little toggles I have Altered to see if joining my world would be something you would Enjoy. (Or in your case most likely not…)

My point is until Klei adds Klei Official or Dedicated Servers to Xbox this is the XBOX Experience and it’s a random grab bag of what any particular “world host” will have toggled on/off/more/less at any given time.