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Some flaws in character design


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Some characters are too weak, and the depth of ability design is also too low like Willow, Woodie, Walter and Winona. These weak characters also have their favorite players, and these players not only need to endure some of the serious inconveniences of these characters in single player games, but also seriously reduce their gaming experience content in multiplayer collaborative games.

Some characters are too strong, and their obvious excessive intensity often undermines the multiplayer collaboration of the game, turning it into a monologue for a few characters, leading to endless community debates and even causing serious conflicts. This is particularly obvious in my Chinese community. the most typical of which are Wanda, Maxwell House and Wurt. Wanda's damage is obviously too high, while Maxwell House completely replaces Wickerbottom in the later stage of the game, and Wurt's fish man makes the fighting and collection of other players become a joke.

Making balance changes to character design can indeed cause dissatisfaction among some players, but not making balance changes can still cause long-term conflicts in the player community. I hope Klei can find a solution that satisfies as many people as possible.

In the end, there are fundamental issues with the skill design of some characters, such as Wurt. In my personal experience, Walter's process of collecting resources is both repetitive and tedious, and the fight itself is basically the same as the previous article. Although this character is very strong and can easily achieve various challenges in the game, I personally feel that the process of achieving these challenges is really lacking in fun. Wurt's need to establish a fishman king both above and underground is also very counterintuitive. Moreover, Wurt did not get along well with his teammates in a multiplayer situation. When Wurt was offline, his teammates had to endure a large number of dangerous fish men on the map or help feed the fish man king. This makes Wurt's teammates sound like they're working for him. Of course, good communication between players can avoid many problems, but many players find it difficult to communicate their game concepts. I hope the official game design can allow players with different concepts to play together, rather than arguing with each other after conflicts arise.

The above are all my feelings as an ordinary Chinese community player, and may not necessarily represent the opinions of most players. I hope my feedback can help with the design of the game, and I also hope that DST will become more and more perfect in the future.

The character redo plan has come to an end, but it is clear that the character system is an extremely complex and important system. In the debate in the Chinese community, it can be seen that there are still some problems with the current character design, which deeply affects players' actual games. I still hope to re optimize the character design in the future.

This article is generated using translation software assistance. I apologize for any inconvenience caused.

I am a very active user in the Chinese community, so I know a lot of opinions and feedback from players there, and often spend a lot of time there discussing controversial designs in DST with people. I may post some ideas based on my debates in the Chinese community in the near future, hoping to be helpful for everyone's discussion.

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The influence an OP character brings is not only restricted to themselves, but also all other characters. I wish changes like the update after introduction of Wanda where nearly all creatures have stun-lock protection will no longer be brought to DST.

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Merm king does require some coordination to maintain, but Merm Guards are not exactly dangerous without the king around. Their HP drops to 200, their damage drops to 20, and they stop respawning outright. I think if you are having issues with this regularly, you might be using too many normal merms. Wurt is also just generally better suited to playing with a private friend group than she is to public servers.

Wickerbottom mostly just deserves to be better at using her books. Her reading animation could be made significantly shorter in order to make books like sleepytime stories or overcoming arachnaphobia more practical to use in real-time. You could also make it so Wicker's books will regenerate while in her inevntory, but at a slower rate than inside a book case. You could even play around with the potency of the effect being different for maxwell/wicker, although the effects of a lot of books would make that a little complex.

Wanda's damage probably isn't as much of a problem as people make it out to be. Her nigh-exclusive access to fast travel is a much bigger concern in my books, but as I see it it's better to buff existing alternatives and/or create a new one. I probably wouldn't actively disagree with some sort of damage nerf, but IMO she really isn't crossing any lines Wolfgang didn't already.

Wurt being OP is a bit of a hot take tbh. Her downside is pretty severe, especially for a new player, as she essentially has to either use farm plots, or go to lunar for food during winter. Is she quite potent late game? Sure, but that's the nature of her design - slow start, but good lategame. It's not like viable alternatives do not exist for what she can do. Bunnies can make good replacements as a boss combatant, pigs still work fine for chopping, bearger can mine petrified forests just fine. And thermal fish can be used by anyone with an insulated pack, or players can just use thermal stones.

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27 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

Merm king does require some coordination to maintain, but Merm Guards are not exactly dangerous without the king around. Their HP drops to 200, their damage drops to 20, and they stop respawning outright. I think if you are having issues with this regularly, you might be using too many normal merms. Wurt is also just generally better suited to playing with a private friend group than she is to public servers.

Wickerbottom mostly just deserves to be better at using her books. Her reading animation could be made significantly shorter in order to make books like sleepytime stories or overcoming arachnaphobia more practical to use in real-time. You could also make it so Wicker's books will regenerate while in her inevntory, but at a slower rate than inside a book case. You could even play around with the potency of the effect being different for maxwell/wicker, although the effects of a lot of books would make that a little complex.

Wanda's damage probably isn't as much of a problem as people make it out to be. Her nigh-exclusive access to fast travel is a much bigger concern in my books, but as I see it it's better to buff existing alternatives and/or create a new one. I probably wouldn't actively disagree with some sort of damage nerf, but IMO she really isn't crossing any lines Wolfgang didn't already.

Wurt being OP is a bit of a hot take tbh. Her downside is pretty severe, especially for a new player, as she essentially has to either use farm plots, or go to lunar for food during winter. Is she quite potent late game? Sure, but that's the nature of her design - slow start, but good lategame. It's not like viable alternatives do not exist for what she can do. Bunnies can make good replacements as a boss combatant, pigs still work fine for chopping, bearger can mine petrified forests just fine. And thermal fish can be used by anyone with an insulated pack, or players can just use thermal stones.

But Wurt is much more potent than she should be in the later game.

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36 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

人鱼王确实需要一些协调来维持,但没有王在身边,人鱼守卫并不十分危险。他们的 HP 下降到 200,他们的伤害下降到 20,并且他们完全停止重生。我想如果你经常遇到这个问题,你可能使用了太多普通的 merms。Wurt 通常也更适合与私人朋友组一起玩,而不是公共服务器。

Wickerbottom 应该更善于使用她的书。她的阅读动画可以大大缩短,以便使睡前故事或克服蜘蛛恐惧症等书籍在实时使用时更加实用。你也可以做到这一点,这样柳条的书在她的书房里就会再生,但速度比在书柜里要慢。你甚至可以玩弄 maxwell/wicker 的不同效果的效力,尽管很多书的效果会使它有点复杂。

万达的损失可能并不像人们想象的那么严重。在我的书中,她几乎独家获得快速旅行是一个更大的问题,但在我看来,最好是加强现有的替代品和/或创建一个新的替代品。我可能不会积极反对某种伤害削弱,但在我看来,她确实没有越过 Wolfgang 尚未跨越的任何界限。

Wurt 是 OP 有点热门。她的缺点非常严重,尤其是对于新玩家而言,因为她基本上必须使用农田,或者在冬天去月球寻找食物。她在游戏后期很强大吗?当然可以,但这就是她设计的本质——起步慢,但后期不错。对于她能做的事情,并不是不存在可行的替代方案。兔子可以很好地替代 Boss 战斗员,猪仍然可以很好地切菜,熊熊可以很好地开采石化森林。任何有保温包的人都可以使用热鱼,或者玩家可以只使用热石。

I noticed that when the game entered a few hundred days, characters like Wanda and Wurt could easily kill a large number of bosses, while other players on the server became idle - most of the wood and stones were collected by Wurt, and as soon as the boss was refreshed, it was quickly killed by Wurt. Wanda is also in a similar situation. The difference between her and Wolfgang is that her watch allows her to quickly reach the location of the boss. I think if we could weaken Wanda's alarm clock a bit, it might make many Wanda players no longer go to the boss's position alone, but instead teleport with their teammates to defeat the boss, which might be better? As for Wurt, at the beginning of the game, some Wurt players demanded too many resources from their teammates, which reduced their gaming experience when there were enough fish men. Although many Walt players avoid interfering with the experience of other players, Wurt itself has the ability to interfere with the gaming experience of other players, and some Wurt players will inevitably interfere with the experience of other players. Many times, killing bosses to obtain loot or collecting a large amount of resources can really reduce the gaming experience for teammates - although this may sound counterintuitive.

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endless discussions about character balance are the bread and butter of every single game that has different character options, no amount of perfect balance will ever change that fact and that's not just for dst but for any applicable game

I've honestly grown tired of klei's tendency to make recent characters/reworks just "good at everything", I'd honestly like the exact opposite thing and wish characters were much more specialized instead of the impossible task that is to make all characters equally viable at all stages of the game

this isn't a competitive game and to me it's weird that the players that play in the most relaxed ways tend to be the ones to care the most about balance, it's fine to have 3 or 4 characters that specialize towards late game, as well as characters that specialize towards early game, variety is good to have and IMO if everyone should be good at everything at all times then why should we even have different characters but it's ok if you disagree with me

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imo - Wanda is an interesting case because she is a glass cannon character, but gets her watch as a "compensation" to this.  People like to talk about just how tanky she "really is" but I feel these are typically bad faith arguments, or simply misunderstanding or out right misrepresenting facts.  She really is more fragile than other characters, and her damage is no higher than Wolfgang using a dark sword.  Since the attack-speed nerfs neither are even guaranteed a second scale from Dfly solo.

IF we nerf the watch then people just don't play her.  Everyone who was playing Wanda for damage would switch to Wolfgang or possibly Warly.  As much as some people make the teleports out to be some great thing, I think they aren't that big of a deal really.  They are strong, but are definitely an extra perk, not worth picking the character for.  They save you time, but only after you've played the game so long that you could have walked to all the bosses anyway lol and it means every Winter is a task to farm walrus, possibly competing with other players for tusks.  Its also very multiplayer friendly - 1 purple gem and you can bring the whole crew with you.  IF a Wanda player is ditching you to do something, they would ditch you as any other character too.

I do think Maxwell overrides Wicker too much.  Its different then other pick / swap characters because Maxwell is potent with his new kit on its own, adding all of her books really boosts him up.  Her books are ridiculously op too.

For what its worth - I think we're going to get some character tuning in the next set of updates with the "choice between lunar and shadow."  imo this seems like a time where they say "choose lunar and Woodie transforms on new moon instead of full moon" and has a perk for "powered up moose form" etc.

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All video games (including DST) need to take character balance under consideration- if you need further proof in that go play Gotham Knights and Tell me that Nightwing does not have the best Map Traversal Gadget in the game.. which makes all other characters not named Nightwing struggle in getting around the Map- The Developers of that game have addressed multiple patches in an attempt to fix it, including buffing the amount of times the Non-Nightwing Characters can Teleport, Glide or Soul Hop- But as long as Nightwing himself has a glider that doesn’t run out of energy and give the others time to catch up, NW is still going to be best at Gadget Traversal.

This Example is Essentially what happens with DST.. only in DST, Certain characters are purposefully designed to excel at certain activities better than other characters.

For example Wendy is designed to be best at dealing with small groups of mobs such as frog rains, 1000 spiders, 1000 birchnutters, she excels at killing them far better than any other character choice, Meanwhile.. Wolfgang deals 2x damage to everything he fights so he is designed to cut fights down to half their health.

Im quite disappointed that Klei allowed Maxwell to have all of his reworked abilities + still be able to read all of Wickerbottoms books, this is the only part I disagree with… like What’s the point in Wickerbottom at all if Maxwell can do everything she can + his own new stuff?

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26 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

imo - Wanda 是一个有趣的案例,因为她是一个玻璃大炮角色,但得到她的手表作为对此的“补偿”。人们喜欢谈论她“真的是”有多肉,但我觉得这些都是典型的恶意争论,或者只是误解或完全歪曲事实。她确实比其他角色脆弱,伤害也不比沃尔夫冈用暗剑高。由于攻击速度的削弱甚至无法保证 Dfly solo 的第二个等级。

Perhaps different game communities have different experiences with these characters. In Chinese community, Wanda's comprehensive combat ability is considered as powerful as Wolfgang, and it also comes with health recovery and fast teleportation functions. Chinese speedrun players believe that Wanda completely surpasses Wolfgang after possessing teleportation ability. In my communication with you, I realized that different communities may actually have different views on many aspects of games. Often, I can only see the views of the Chinese community and overlook the views of the Klei Forum, which leads to different conclusions drawn between us.

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10 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

it's fine to have 3 or 4 characters that specialize towards late game, as well as characters that specialize towards early game

THIS and also what you said about characters being good at everything.

I don't see why people complain about Woodie being outclassed by everything late-game, to me he's just a great character to start playing, because he has a bit of everything in his kit to make it just a bit easier. Combat, AOE, fast chopping and exploration. His only problem right now I'd say is the fact that moonstorms transform him. 

And about characters being good at everything. I miss when people would ask, before the character's reworks, "what do you need?" before picking a character. Now it's not really necessary due to characters having more power. But I guess that could also be because of the tools we got over the years. Like moonglass axes and a variety of food sources that have taken Maxwell and Wicker out of S+++ tier for the better.

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3 minutes ago, Juanasdf said:

 Like moonglass axes and a variety of food sources that have taken Maxwell and Wicker out of S+++ tier for the better.

If anything Maxwell entered S+++ tier after his and Wicker's rework. Back in the day you actually had to swap back to Wicker if you wanted to make new books, but now you have all her new books + the bookshelf + his new spells + the cool magic hat, as well as improved duelists and (arguably) more useful shadow workers.

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19 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

All video games (including DST) need to take character balance under consideration- if you need further proof in that go play Gotham Knights and Tell me that Nightwing does not have the best Map Traversal Gadget in the game.. which makes all other characters not named Nightwing struggle in getting around the Map- The Developers of that game have addressed multiple patches in an attempt to fix it, including buffing the amount of times the Non-Nightwing Characters can Teleport, Glide or Soul Hop- But as long as Nightwing himself has a glider that doesn’t run out of energy and give the others time to catch up, NW is still going to be best at Gadget Traversal.

This Example is Essentially what happens with DST.. only in DST, Certain characters are purposefully designed to excel at certain activities better than other characters.

For example Wendy is designed to be best at dealing with small groups of mobs such as frog rains, 1000 spiders, 1000 birchnutters, she excels at killing them far better than any other character choice, Meanwhile.. Wolfgang deals 2x damage to everything he fights so he is designed to cut fights down to half their health.

Im quite disappointed that Klei allowed Maxwell to have all of his reworked abilities + still be able to read all of Wickerbottoms books, this is the only part I disagree with… like What’s the point in Wickerbottom at all if Maxwell can do everything she can + his own new stuff?

Balance should be considered, but you should not expect perfect balance.  If NightWing can traverse the city easily, and a lot of people find traversing the city tedious / difficult / whatever enough that everyone plays NightWing that is more a reflection of how annoying the design is for moving around the city as everyone else.  If there are perks worth picking other characters for, then they deal with moving around the city being more of a chore and that is on them for their choice.

Similarly I can pick Wolfgang or Wanda and have an easier time in combat for the higher damage.  I can pick Wendy for Abi's aoe making easy farming of hounds, spiders, etc.  Or I can pick Woodie to explore the ocean and gather certain resources much faster than others players might.  The choices should all have something they are good at, but they don't all have to be good at everything.  Guille said it best - having characters that are more early game focused, strong but fall off - and late game characters that take time to become valuable - and niche characters with specialty perks that are just different like Winona - are good choices.  If anything, we might feel a bit miffed at the Celestial Gate for letting people gain the benefits of each character during their strong point, but ya know - that's a choice too.  Personally I enjoy playing a single character the whole way through, enjoying their ups and downs.

17 minutes ago, Ardyn said:

Perhaps different game communities have different experiences with these characters. In my Chinese community, Wanda's comprehensive combat ability is considered as powerful as Wolfgang, and it also comes with health recovery and fast teleportation functions. FastPass players believe that Wanda completely surpasses Wolfgang after possessing teleportation ability. In my communication with you, I realized that different communities may actually have different views on many aspects of games. Often, I can only see the views of the Chinese community and overlook the views of the Klei Forum, which leads to different conclusions drawn between us.

Yes different communities value things differently, there are also different play styles to consider.  In DST you can look at speed running and have a very different set of character choices compared to someone who is new, or someone who is wanting to do something different.  When Ocean content first launched I liked boating a lot and used Wendy because she helped me farm spiders quicker to get sails, and kill cutterfish for meats.  Abi's light also helped if it got dark on a boat and I didn't want to waste the resources to create light.  Of course a lot has changed since then, but if I was wanting to boat now I certainly would not pick Wurt or Wanda.

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Just now, Masked Koopa said:

If anything Maxwell entered S+++ tier after his and Wicker's rework. Back in the day you actually had to swap back to Wicker if you wanted to make new books, but now you have all her new books + the bookshelf + his new spells + the cool magic hat, as well as improved duelists and (arguably) more useful shadow workers.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, the rework gave him a lot of power, as all the characters got... arguably more than some of them. But what I mean is that, before all of the characters reworks, each character had a very specific function. To summarize it: Maxwell was great at gathering resources, Wicker was great at farming food, Wolfgang was great at fighting, Wendy (and webber) was great at killing spiders, and Wigfrid was good at crafting armor and weapons.

So back when Return of them wasn't out yet, we didn't have our precious kelp or stone fruit bushes, reworked farms or other stuff. The meta was always berries for meatballs, from a wicker powered farm. A Wolfgang to kill bosses, and a Maxwell to farm.

Now you got a lot of flexibility on what you can choose because of the reworks AND the new equipment we got, which are great alternatives to some characters perks.

For example while before you could """only""" use Wendy to farm spiders, now you can use Woodie, or Wormwood, or Winona. The same with the rest of the game's chores.

(I say "only" because in reality every character can do everything, but they make it easier)

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2 hours ago, Ardyn said:

This article is generated using translation software assistance. I apologize for any inconvenience caused.

Actually, you've managed to generate an extremely accurate and grammatically correct translation. Bravo, dude.

I can definitely say that what you said holds true for Winona; I love the gal to bits however I really do think she needs a rework. As of right now her "hard worker" trope is limited to only a handful of machines, two of which are generators for the others, one being a light source and the other being a catapult that does arguably very little damage. Personally I feel she should have more at her disposal, similar to the Wickerbottom rework wherein the latter was given a BUNCH of new features.

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21 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

Wurt being OP is a bit of a hot take tbh. Her downside is pretty severe, especially for a new player, as she essentially has to either use farm plots, or go to lunar for food during winter. Is she quite potent late game? Sure, but that's the nature of her design - slow start, but good lategame. It's not like viable alternatives do not exist for what she can do. Bunnies can make good replacements as a boss combatant, pigs still work fine for chopping, bearger can mine petrified forests just fine. And thermal fish can be used by anyone with an insulated pack, or players can just use thermal stones.

I mean her downside is not really as potent as it used to be non meat foods are pretty abundant in worlds unless you have a insane amount of players grabbing everything they see but even in that scenario there's a winter food source that regrows on the mainland in cactus; and kelp exists through out the ocean as well which is easier to access via grass boats and driftwood paddles then if your more experienced there is lunar food sources as you've mentioned but also moon quay's banana bushes which also double as a very good sanity food. but assuming your not on a server of of people grabbing everything they see there's still plenty of berry bushes as well as the potiental for bee boxes that pair very nicely with wurt's hunger bonus.

21 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

Wickerbottom mostly just deserves to be better at using her books. Her reading animation could be made significantly shorter in order to make books like sleepytime stories or overcoming arachnaphobia more practical to use in real-time. You could also make it so Wicker's books will regenerate while in her inevntory, but at a slower rate than inside a book case. You could even play around with the potency of the effect being different for maxwell/wicker, although the effects of a lot of books would make that a little complex.many 

While I do agree it does feel kinda weird that Maxwell more or less keeps the entirety of Wickerbottom's perks in addition to his own my bigger gripe with Maxwell is how powerful his abilities are right out of spawn and how little he has to work to make use of them honestly.

 

20 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

endless discussions about character balance are the bread and butter of every single game that has different character options, no amount of perfect balance will ever change that fact and that's not just for dst but for any applicable game

I've honestly grown tired of klei's tendency to make recent characters/reworks just "good at everything", I'd honestly like the exact opposite thing and wish characters were much more specialized instead of the impossible task that is to make all characters equally viable at all stages of the game

this isn't a competitive game and to me it's weird that the players that play in the most relaxed ways tend to be the ones to care the most about balance, it's fine to have 3 or 4 characters that specialize towards late game, as well as characters that specialize towards early game, variety is good to have and IMO if everyone should be good at everything at all times then why should we even have different characters but it's ok if you disagree with me

I get a perfect balance can never be achieved but I don't like that there's so much overlap with what everyone does and many end up feeling straight up inferior even in their specialties or feel like they put in a lot of work for so much less of a payoff. I do agree I would prefer characters to be more specialized though.

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On 5/2/2023 at 11:46 AM, Guille6785 said:

endless discussions about character balance are the bread and butter of every single game that has different character options, no amount of perfect balance will ever change that fact and that's not just for dst but for any applicable game

I've honestly grown tired of klei's tendency to make recent characters/reworks just "good at everything", I'd honestly like the exact opposite thing and wish characters were much more specialized instead of the impossible task that is to make all characters equally viable at all stages of the game

this isn't a competitive game and to me it's weird that the players that play in the most relaxed ways tend to be the ones to care the most about balance, it's fine to have 3 or 4 characters that specialize towards late game, as well as characters that specialize towards early game, variety is good to have and IMO if everyone should be good at everything at all times then why should we even have different characters but it's ok if you disagree with me

I agree with the ideas being presented but it is important not to dismiss other flaws in the character's design simply because of the logic DST isn't a competitive game: Many characters have subpar abilities and stats like they have been created by someone that has never played the game. This type of design is strongly presented in Willow, Wiona, Walter, and recently Woodie: in what scenario would someone use Wiona's light? Why is Bernie only protecting Willow when she is insane but not when she is Enlighted, should he be able to protect her whenever she is in danger, like in the lore? Why Walter's sling slot is useless in every situation except for farming birds and Krampi? Have any of the devs been playing Woodie while the Moon Storm is active? Characters that have been created as paid-weave content receive frequent mini QoL updates until they are balanced and interesting, it is puzzling as to why adjustments cannot be made to the older characters to better align them with the current state of the game.

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4 hours ago, Dreadle said:

I agree with the ideas being presented it is important not to dismiss other flaws in the character's design simply because of the logic DST isn't a competitive game: Many characters have subpar abilities and stats like they have been created by someone that has never played the game. This type of design is strongly presented in Willow, Wiona, Walter, and recently Woodie: in what scenario would someone use Wiona's light? Why is Bernie only protecting Willow when she is insane but not when she is Enlighted, should he be able to protect her whenever she is in danger, like in the lore? Why Walter's sling slot is useless in every situation except for farming birds and Krampi? Have any of the devs been playing Woodie while the Moon Storm is active? Characters that have been created as paid-weave content receive frequent mini QoL updates until they are balanced and interesting, it is puzzling as to why adjustments cannot be made to the older characters to better align them with the current state of the game.

I don't disagree with the notion of dst being balanced, I disagree with it being balanced with a competitive mindset

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