Willow's Pyromaniac ReRefresh Ideas (Updated)

[maxwell_winters]

Note. The list got updated over time.

I think Willow is a great character personality-wise and she has a great potential. However, her rework was too scared to delve into her pyromaniac side, so I decided to fantasize about it and hear your thoughts. I will not be including Bernie, but I acknowledge he deserves some QoL, too. We already have enough follower characters. Willow is shown to be perfectly capable to stand for herself. She's not a little girl and not a fragile old man. She should be able to do cool things on her own.

Note. All the number values are very approximate. It's just to give you a general idea. I'm not equipped with enough knowledge to balance them properly. The recipes are also a subject to discussion. I don't like a lot of them but DST doesn't have enough fire ltems to work with.

New downside

Willow takes only 1/3 of positive sanity from everything that's not fire-related. That includes foods and sanity auras from clothing, objects and mobs. Negative sanity values are default.

• Contained fires (fire pits, camp fires etc.) restore a solid amount of sanity. However, burning objects and especially mobs restore way more.
• Magiluminescence and Scalemail count as fire-related, so their sanity auras are slightly increased.
• Explosives I suggest lower also act as her sanity restoration kits. They restore sanity upon using them. Gunpowder, slurtle slime and fire staff do, too.
• She no longer has a sanity multiplier. (It's so weird they added it in the first place. She's not Wolfgang who is scared of everything.)

Crafts

More about night fire

• The idea of fire that doesn't burn loot got thrown around a lot here. I feel it would be a bit broken if you're able to summon it easily, that's why I limited it to a pretty expensive explosive and only a chance from the Nighter and Blaze Staff.
• I also thought that the effect of spoiling food immediately would speed up the mass production of gunpowder by a lot.

"Flavor" perks

• Fire attracts fire, so fire hounds will always prioritize targeting Willow over other characters.
• Dwarf Stars and Polar Lights summoned by Willow last longer. 
• Pepper and pepper-based dishes restore Willow's sanity and health.
• When Willow mass crafts gunpowder, there is a chance to get one extra for free.
• Willow can cook whole stacks of food at once on the Scaled Furnace.

[dzzydzzy]

Overall, cool ideas. i similarly like to fantasize about reworks to characters.

I'm a bit confused about the utility of the lavighter, is it like a portable furnace for Winter? are you able to "cook" thermal stones on it for like a huge chunk of durability maybe? Based on what you've presented here it seems it needs more perks to justify the cost.

I don't think the recipe for "Willotow Cocktail" makes sense. If it's meant to be a play on a molotov cocktail, the recipe would be much better if it was an empty bottle, 2 slurtle slime, and a rope as the wick.

 

[Waitdire]

Idea for QOL
Bernie and shadows shouldn't hit each other when you're wearing a bone helmet, as long as you don't hit them yourself.

[Evelo]

I gotta say, changing her downside is amazing. Love the idea of forcing the character to play around with fire to restore sanity. I would prefer it if it is cannot gain sanity from normal methods, only burning but that's because I love Wormwood. Call me cheesy.

Second: The Lighter upgrades are conceptually an amazing idea and just those alone (with the sanity downside) would really flush out her character. Regarding the Lavalighter, having it be refilable at a Scaled Furnace would also be very fitting so players can base wherever they want and not have to rely on being near magma pools to refuel.

Of the thrown explosives, the Peppered Corn is also fantastic in both terms of flavor, crafting, and utility. Giving more usages to crops to incentivize farming is always welcome to me so having that be included is brilliant. I can already imagine throwing a Red Corn on the Cob with a lit fuse and seeing it explode with fire and popcorn as the animation. It would be cute, fun, and useful.

You mentioned balance and the Eggsplosive I can see being one of those "too tedious to craft" things, namely because of the Tallbird requirement. However, I dont know if this is suppose to be some sort of "rocket launcher" sort of a deal or an equivalent to the Blunderbuss from Hamlet. If that is the case then I can understand the tallbird being used if gunpowder is how you charge it up for use.

Lastly a little critique I have for the Cocktail, maybe reflavor it to a molotov? It could be a bottle + grass + Slurtle Slime to create a large area with fire patches similar to what happens when a Firehound or Lavae dies. Alternatively it could be moon glass crafted at a station to make a molotov bottle and fill it with Lava (or scaled furnace) for a similar effect. Either way I think Willow having a mass fire ability akin to Fire Hound / Lavae death would fit her Extremely well.

Over all love the ideas and the enthusiasm and I hope with all the raging fires of Hell she gets some love!

[Scrimbles]

While it all sounds fun, the tricky thing about making Willow a "fire based character" is adding substantial perks that aren't just flavor, craftable items, or stat boosts.

If she had some sort of passive effects while near fires, like being able to keep them going just by standing near them, I feel like that could have some neat gameplay implications.

[maxwell_winters]

3 hours ago, dzzydzzy said:

I'm a bit confused about the utility of the lavighter, is it like a portable furnace for Winter?

Basic lighter would have smaller range. Lavalighter has bigger range but at risk of overheating in warmer seasons. But your idea with thermal stone isn't bad, too. Tbh, I just thought Lava lighter would be cool. 

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

Lastly a little critique I have for the Cocktail, maybe reflavor it to a molotov?

3 hours ago, dzzydzzy said:

I don't think the recipe for "Willotow Cocktail" makes sense.

I wanted it to be something you can access from the day 1. Like an early game sanity food. I know the recipe is stupid. I should've probably called it a shroom bomb or something and made Willotow a seperate mid-game thing.

[abrocator]

This is cool. You managed to think outside the box.

I had a Willow rework idea of my own but I can’t seem to find it.

[maxwell_winters]

5 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

If she had some sort of passive effects while near fires, like being able to keep them going just by standing near them, I feel like that could have some neat gameplay implications.

I can see that but I also thought of combat scenarios. If she can make the fire last longer on mobs, too, it's gonna make the fight messier for everyone else because it's a higher chance to catch fire for Non-Willows. As for campfires, they already last longer when Willow is around because she's more eficient with fuel.

[Theukon-dos]

As someone who has been an active and livid hater of Willow's rework and Bernie! for the last 3 years, yeah this ain't it chief. Your rework effectively boils down too "Can blow [manure] up", which is both extremely niche, and rather inefficient, given that one Eggsplosive is only 6 hamsmacks worth of damage. 

 

I think the problem a lot of people have with Willow getting a fire-based rework is a kneejerk reaction that fire = bad. Which isn't unreasonable. Fire's dangerous, can devour your base in minute. But at the same time, fire as a concept is so much more than that. 

It gives light and warmth, it lets us forge our tools and power our cities, it keeps beasts at bay, fire may aswell be life itself if you want to get philosophical. It could do so, so much more than cause death and destruction if Klei would just let it.

 

Personally, I would love it if Willow became a dedicated spellcaster. She was revealed to be a Pyrokinetic in her short (Shut up about chemicals, that blast was strong enough to blow a door to smitherines and she didn't even flinch.), and has been depicted as a witch a good few times.

Maxwell's casting mechanics could be re-cycled, and there are a ton of possible spells that could come from fire theming. Summoning Willow-Wisps that follow players and provide light, snuffing out nearby fires to fuel her spells, Power Within from Dark Souls, turning trees into burning broomsticks that let Willow zip over land and sea. So, so much potential.

Also, while I agree on a T2 lighter, I think it would be more interesting if it was a lunar upgrade instead of a nightmare upgrade. Willow's current gameplay loop makes her highly effective against shadows. So I think it's more fitting in that sense. Plus there aren't any character reworks that really want to go to the lunar island outside of an off-handed reagent in Wicker and Wigfrid's case.

 

I just- 3 years on and I still don't get it. Bernie was a consolation prize. They butchered Willow between Don't Starve and Don't Starve together out of fear of griefers, and gave her a stuffed bear so she had atleast somthing going for her. They never acknowledged how easy it was; nay; is to grief outside of her and Woodie. And then when presented with the oppertunity to write their wrongs, they decided to focus on the God be damned Bear.

I just don't understand what like of thinking could have lead to this; other than simply fear.

[Brago-sama]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

But at the same time, fire as a concept is so much more than that. 

It gives light and warmth, it lets us forge our tools and power our cities, it keeps beasts at bay, fire may aswell be life itself if you want to get philosophical. It could do so, so much more than cause death and destruction if Klei would just let it.

Just give her the warmth healing pyrmomancy from dark souls 2 and call it a day

[maxwell_winters]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

our rework effectively boils down too "Can blow [manure] up", which is both extremely niche, and rather inefficient

Let's be honest, pyro characters would always be kinda niche. Even if I replace explosives with magic scrolls, their effects would be similar. Some kinda of AoE fire turret instead of cracker, fireball instead of eggsplosive etc. Sure, you can add the spell that warms the players nearby but Wicker already has a book like that which also saves from wetness and overheating. You can add the spell that leeches the fire damage out of the enemy and spread them among the teammates, but both AoE healing and health leeching niches are already taken by characters who are way more efficient with that and not limited to fire.

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

Also, while I agree on a T2 lighter, I think it would be more interesting if it was a lunar upgrade instead of a nightmare upgrade

I don't see Willow as lunar-aligned. She worked for Maxwell, she gains sanity from the Night Light. Bernie requires beard hair to craft, which is normally associated with insanity and nightmare fuel overdose. Maxwell's duelists also can attack shadow pieces and AF. It doesn't make them lunar-aligned. If someone should get Lunar crafts, it's Woodie.

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

They butchered Willow between Don't Starve and Don't Starve together out of fear of griefers, and gave her a stuffed bear so she had atleast somthing going for her. They never acknowledged how easy it was; nay; is to grief outside of her and Woodie.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. No one denies that her old downside was very multiplayer-unfriendly, but that doesn't mean fire should be banned from multiplayer.

I'm not claiming that my ideas are perfect. They are rough around the edges, require number tweaks and more unique effects. However, we need more discussions that would show Klei that the community is open to pyro Willow. Most suggestions I see for Willow is "buff Bernie, I want her to become Wendy 2.0, afk gaming rules".

[Waitdire]

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

as been depicted as a witch a good few times.

I like her perks set in Willow. You literally plunge the world around you into complete chaos, go crazy and burn everything and everything. However, the latter does not work very well. and about the first, Bernie can help not only in the battle with horrors, but also allows you to most aggressively use items that greatly reduce your sanity with minimal punishment (bat bat, nightmare sword and armor and dreadstone items,One-man Band?). I think it suits her character well. Many people say that Willow has no progress, apparently this is not entirely true.
Bernie is also good at distracting mobs, if my suggestion above is indeed accepted, then Willow will have a little more progress in the form of a permanent childhood companion. Bosses with the -400 san/min aura have already been discussed in another post.

[Theukon-dos]

1 hour ago, Waitdire said:

I like her perks set in Willow. You literally plunge the world around you into complete chaos, go crazy and burn everything and everything. However, the latter does not work very well. and about the first, Bernie can help not only in the battle with horrors, but also allows you to most aggressively use items that greatly reduce your sanity with minimal punishment (bat bat, nightmare sword and armor and dreadstone items,One-man Band?). I think it suits her character well. Many people say that Willow has no progress, apparently this is not entirely true.
Bernie is also good at distracting mobs, if my suggestion above is indeed accepted, then Willow will have a little more progress in the form of a permanent childhood companion. Bosses with the -400 san/min aura have already been discussed in another post.

I never said that Willow's perks where bad. Just that they don't fit her. You can argue that she's crazy all you want. But when nearly all of her quotes are either about wanting to burn something, or lamenting that she can't, you have to stand back and ask why this girl's most notable fire-themed perk is being slightly more efficient with campfires. 

[Waitdire]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

I never said that Willow's perks where bad. Just that they don't fit her. You can argue that she's crazy all you want. But when nearly all of her quotes are either about wanting to burn something, or lamenting that she can't, you have to stand back and ask why this girl's most notable fire-themed perk is being slightly more efficient with campfires. 

I understand what you are getting at, but I will answer the question, because the fire itself in the game does not work well and at the moment it is only a tool to wait out the night / warm up. All we have is a torch, a lighter/bonfire with 50% ignite on attack, a dart-torch, a 20-use remote torch, anti-ignite armor with ignite revenge, an exclusive remote "infinite" torch, and a bonfire pet. Why would anyone waste hard-to-find items on the most expensive torch when an ordinary one does the same?
I'm not saying changing Willow is bad, just i thing reworking fire/all fire stuff would make her a lot better.

[WONTow]

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

They butchered Willow between Don't Starve and Don't Starve together out of fear of griefers

They actually butchered her because of pvp. There was a huge pvp scene in the early days of DST, like there was entire streams about it, and fire damage was meta. Willow was overpowered because not only did she take no fire damage, but she also had an infinite lighter that could light people on fire. Entire servers would hunt Willows down to get their hands on that lighter.

Yes, they essentially killed a character because of a player made meta in a niche gamemode because of streamers, and as a result we got that stupid bear that took her rework. It's like a cruel joke.

[Theukon-dos]

1 minute ago, WONTow said:

They actually butchered her because of pvp. There was a huge pvp scene in the early days of DST, like there was entire streams about it, and fire damage was meta. Willow was overpowered because not only did she take no fire damage, but she also had an infinite lighter that could light people on fire. Entire servers would hunt Willows down to get their hands on that lighter.

Yes, they essentially killed a character because of a player made meta in a niche gamemode because of streamers, and as a result we got that stupid bear that took her rework. It's like a cruel joke.

Wait seriously? That's even worse! Does DST PvP even exist anymore?

[WONTow]

16 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Wait seriously? That's even worse! Does DST PvP even exist anymore?

Honestly idk, I think you have to select it in the filters to see the servers. There are, at most, 2 people playing each server last I checked. PvP is insanely dead now.

Last time I played PvP was like 2018, back when the game was an event purgatory. Even then there was only 3 people when we joined. Me and an ingame friend went in as duo Wigfrid and decimated everyone using panflutes. Sleep is insanely overpowered. Makes you wonder why they nerfed the fire lady and not the elder with the sleep books..

EDIT: Actually, it's because fire ignores armour, I suddenly remember them saying that in the stream. While you still wear armour while asleep, not that it matter much when you're being sandwiched by two crazy gingers.

[Theukon-dos]

9 minutes ago, WONTow said:

Honestly idk, I think you have to select it in the filters to see the servers. There are, at most, 2 people playing each server last I checked. PvP is insanely dead now.

Last time I played PvP was like 2018, back when the game was an event purgatory. Even then there was only 3 people when we joined. Me and an ingame friend went in as duo Wigfrid and decimated everyone using panflutes. Sleep is insanely overpowered. Makes you wonder why they nerfed the fire lady and not the elder with the sleep books..

Well ain't that a right fast way to fill me up with burning hatred. Pun intended.

[Archswifter]

I always wanted her to have some interaction with Endothermic Fire, never thought about the shadow fire or magma even but it makes sense looking back on it considering she likes all kinds of fire and magma even.

[maxwell_winters]

7 hours ago, WONTow said:

They actually butchered her because of pvp.

Wait? For real? It's even more enranging now considering how OP for PvP they made Wickerbottom and Maxwell. They clearly don't balance the game around PvP anymore. 

Is there any confirmation the nerf was due to PvP or are you just assuming that?

[Mike23Ua]

For the record, I’ll say this one more time- Willow is not a Telekinetic Pyromancer (Aka Jean Grey from X-men flying around with wings made of flames) Willow if anything- Willow is simply “The Fire Immune” but she’s got something deeper going on with her OUTSIDE OF FIRE something that “hints” at Telekinesis more than anything- she’s not as “Immune” to Fire as she thinks- she’s simply able to create a Forcefield around herself to prevent taking fire damage, this would ALSO explain how she’s able to enlarge Bernie, just think of it as a Forcefield inside the bears body frame expanding outward.

Now again this treads heavily into X-Men mutant territory and in some of the darker comics we even see these characters build a Forcefield inside their enemies bodies and expanding it outward forcing them to explode- this is technically what Willow is doing to Bernie.

Now as far as what I would do with her Re-rework I would make her LIGHTER Magical, as in.. the fires created from it are some Harry Potter type stuff that can’t spread to any other entities aside from the one the lighter itself comes into direct contact with.

This means Willow gets a BUFF and a NERF simultaneously at the same time- The nerf part when fire doesn’t spread she can’t light a tree on fire and the fire spread across to other trees (if trying to do this you better just swap to a torch..)

the BUFF part however comes from using the lighter as an actual Melee Weapon, hitting things and lighting them on fire for a Damage over Time effect, for example during the Summer weather season the surface gets so hot that spiders and rabbits spontaneously combust into flames, Willow will be able to achieve this same effect (non-spreading) by hitting them with her MAGIC LIGHTER, which should have all the abilities of Wickerbottoms Fiery Pen minus the fire spreading. And as an extra flavor perk: I’d allow Willow to smack Bernie with the Magic Lighter to catch him on non-spreading Fire that deals additional DOT to the enemies Bernie is fighting.

Finally- The lighter can be used to Ignite/Extinguish or Continue to Fuel a Campfire.

Lighters are now also refuel-able with the same source Willow is best at gathering- Nightmare fuel.

She really doesn’t need all these crazy fire related powers.. if anything, I’d love to see some super super late game unlocks where (same as Jean Grey..) she uses the powers of her unlocked Telekinesis to control, contain, and harness flames.. 

TL:DR- She builds a Forcefield around a ball of fire and then using her mind hurls that ball of fire at an enemy like a projectile.

And For you guys to hate on and Dismiss BERNIE is just sad, because BERNIE is the only small “hint” you get that Willow be throwing up mental Forcefields.

[WONTow]

2 hours ago, maxwell_winters said:

Wait? For real? It's even more enranging now considering how OP for PvP they made Wickerbottom and Maxwell. They clearly don't balance the game around PvP anymore. 

Is there any confirmation the nerf was due to PvP or are you just assuming that?

It was said in a development stream when Willow was being reworked. I think it was the one were they showcased and talked about Bernie. Someone in chat asked why Willow was nerfed in the first place, and one of the developers gave this explanation.

That was 4 years ago so the stream might be gone now, and I don't feel like checking if it still exists. It's quite buried.

[maxwell_winters]

1 hour ago, WONTow said:

snip

https://youtu.be/lcAU4H0yOwg?t=3526 Found it lol. They said they were removing the PvP balancing in the refresh, since PvP was no longer relevant. You misinformed @Theukon-dos a bit. 

[Evelo]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

For the record, I’ll say this one more time- Willow is not a Telekinetic Pyromancer (Aka Jean Grey from X-men flying around with wings made of flames) Willow if anything- Willow is simply “The Fire Immune” but she’s got something deeper going on with her OUTSIDE OF FIRE something that “hints” at Telekinesis more than anything- she’s not as “Immune” to Fire as she thinks- she’s simply able to create a Forcefield around herself to prevent taking fire damage, this would ALSO explain how she’s able to enlarge Bernie, just think of it as a Forcefield inside the bears body frame expanding outward.

What the hell are you talking about? I am beyond confused. Willow is just your regular run of the mill Pyromaniac. She likes fire, she has childhood trauma that's it.

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, Evelo said:

What the hell are you talking about? I am beyond confused. Willow is just your regular run of the mill Pyromancer. She likes fire, she has childhood trauma that's it.

The TL:DR Bernie is triggered by Willows state of Mind, therefore.. Willows Fire Immunity is also triggered by her mind. Willows not a Pyromancer, she’s simply a Pyromaniac with Telekinetic powers that could LEAD to Pyromancer.