Karitha Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 Most of survival games don't have quests which make them force player to progress, which the formulas causes it. Every game have a formula. Survival games have common formulas which makes game easy in small parts but harder in all-game comparing by time you progress. Here few games I'm really familiar with and their formula. Terraria: Game have two main stage (pre/after Wall of flesh). Game is getting easier until you kill WoF and it gets hard again when you kill that boss. But game keeps pre-WoF bosses easy, so you will feel how strong was you. Best formula in a game I ever seen, progression is could be called "orgasmic" if you mind me. The Forest: Game sends you small amount of cannibals, as you attack them they start to attack you more with different variants. Game gets harder, so you will be have to go check dangerous places (caves with full of mutants) to keep yourself alive at end of day. To survive, you get in danger of not surviving. Minecraft: Only reason to progress is curiosity. But because of the game's sandbox elements, it's a good idea to discover and nails it in that way. So how Don't Starve working? I'm playing this game since 2016, about 6-7 years. So is it changed, yeah it changed. Definetly Don't starve was on their way to work with The Forest formula, which seasonal boss makes you have to go dangerous places to make surviving easier. You had to go ruins to survive, seasonal Deerclops, Dragonfly and moosegoose attacks. It's a basic and good formula, gives player to reason to progress. The only thing Klei should do well was making new reason to get stronger. But updates mostly did not gave us that. All reworks nerfed weak side of players which made gameplay easier. You could kill all seasonal bosses with Tier 1 weapons and armors. There is a lot of people just kill bosses that supposed to be hard by hambat and wood/marble armor. You could pass starving with farming berries/kelps/spider farms. If you don't annoy anything particually, you could survive forever and that's problem. For lore and gameplay both. In lore, charlie trying to kill players with all her power. In gameplay, it's not giving you a motivation to discover, keep going etc. New updates gave us three new Islands which there is no reason to go on it. For me, only good reason to go Lunar island is stonefruits, it's just usesfull when you are out of iceboxes. About last update, I did not tried Wilson yet. But that werepig boss, is really bad designed. You can kill it and it drops an armor which you can make armor that just almost same as shadow armor. I mean no offense but it's cheapest idea I have ever heard of. Stronger stats no matter for gameplay because the only difference to kill a boss with axe and shadow sword is the time you are gonna waste in fighting. Stronger weapons/armors is not making your surviver chance higher (of course if you are familiar with game mechanics as kiting), it just kills creature in shorter time. What can be done? Yeah that would be hard when you consider how much mistakes had made. I believe it could be fixed in three titles. 1) Easy beginning or help with reviving Now I love how hard game starts but it's not a nice thing to throw front of new players. I mean it's deadly to having tons of creature lurking around at start that will make new players run. So what can be done? Reviving at start could be easy to do. Endless worlds works but I believe more respawning locations and tools would be much better. 2) Seasonal/Progressional danger By you progress in game (by time or building stuffs idk), game should throw you waves, similar to hounds. I mean like when your base be bigger than amount of a number, a boss could attack you. Or as year goes, harder version of bosses could be spawned if you killed first one. Like if you killed deerclops in winter, next winter another boss could came to kill you which would make game terrifying. Or after triggering something, new bosses could pop up. Like after killing that robotic archive worm boss, new creatures or biomes might be spawn in world similar how it works in terraria. 3) Drop changes Drops is one of the weakest thing in new content of game. Most of boss drops should have usefull place to be used in progress. Also their death couldalso trigger proggressing of game. Like there could be a hard boss that only is easy to kill with particular armor in game. Otherwise it could be pain in ass. Or drop materials for new weapon types like powder based guns (just like Warbucks') or more magic/science stuff. So that's all, I hope you get what I mean. Thanks! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashzer Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 Don't starve is still ridiculously hard for new players, DS just has a really weird learning curve were you spend ages being bad until the combat clicks (the kiting mostly). Then the game gets super easy. There is no gradual increase in difficulty in DS which is the problem. It goes from very hard to easy then stays at easy. I wish new seasonal challenges emerged the longer you played or the world becomes more hostile with new more dangerous mobs appearing as you survive multiple years straight. I do like the sound of the terraria approach if after you kill both CC and ancient fuelweaver the world goes under a massive change to become harder... like charlie unleashes her power to make the world turn into a shadow world or something. Then if u survive long enough with the new seasonal threats to defeat her and the new bosses the world returns to normal. You could include an altar or something to manually toggle on/off the shadow world after you defeat her. But yeah the "day to day non-raid boss" survival needs to get harder overtime for sure. All the new bosses for ages have been raid bosses which are nowhere near as enjoyable as dealing with threats that come to kill you instead. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowercase skye Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 2 hours ago, Karitha said: Or drop materials for new weapon types like powder based guns (just like Warbucks') or more magic/science stuff. warbucks didnt have a gun Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
slendyproject Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 24 minutes ago, Gashzer said: Don't starve is still ridiculously hard for new players, DS just has a really weird learning curve were you spend ages being bad until the combat clicks (the kiting mostly). Then the game gets super easy. Big reason as to why combat needs an overhaul. Too confusing and unintuitive for new players, too simple and shallow for experienced players. The forge proved that combat in dst can be much more fun but the main game suffers from the baggage of early enemy design (for example see treeguards, spiders and spider warriors) so a lot of things would need to be reworked to see something like that. Maxwells rework and wolfgang being able to throw the dumbbells are moves in the right direction though. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashzer Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 1 hour ago, slendyproject said: Big reason as to why combat needs an overhaul. Too confusing and unintuitive for new players, too simple and shallow for experienced players. The forge proved that combat in dst can be much more fun but the main game suffers from the baggage of early enemy design (for example see treeguards, spiders and spider warriors) so a lot of things would need to be reworked to see something like that. Maxwells rework and wolfgang being able to throw the dumbbells are moves in the right direction though. Hmm there is a certain appeal to DS's simple but hard to master combat, so i wouldn't want it directly overhaulled. Better control over followers plus more complex spells in the form of new staffs kinda like maxwells would be great but i would want the simple melee combat to stay the same. A total combat overhaul would be too much for the devs to handle, you would be making an entirely new game pretty much. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evelo Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 I think Survivor downsides needs to be leaned into more (like how Wormwood cannot heal from food; it is very impactful and changes the way you play compared to Wilson), but other than that I think the game is fine as is. It is very difficult for new players to learn. As a veteran myself I struggle with AFW but that's it really. I still have a ton of fun because DST has the best exploration feel to me at least. Sure it could benefit from other features but over all DST isn't about "progression" I think at least. I do agree food is too abundant currently but you can always change the settings on your worlds when you make your own. Want less food? Change the parameters. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuernito. Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 mmmm No. First of all Terraria is not a survival game even if steam tags tell you that, trust me i have played that game a lot, i have even killed the moon lord in master mode several times. So no terraria is out of the question, and i dont understand why you want dont starve to be a copy of another game that isnt even a survival game but ok. Now lets talk about the forest... my friend i think you have played sons of the forest recently a lot. The true is that dont starve is not becoming a game like The forest, its the opposite. I dont know if you know this but the devs of The forest have taken a lot of "inspiration " from Dont starve(you can check in the wiki or forums if you want to see for yourself). I have beat the forest many times too even in hard survival and please no. The forest unlike dont starve together have almost zero replayability. When you learn where is all in caves(items, mutants, etc) the game becomes a little boring, theres is not much rng in the forest, the only reason in my opinion to play it again is to make a different contruction of your camp. Listen my fella dont starve together already have its own soul, its not copy of any other game and thats cause it doenst need it. In my opinion the game has a good structure which i split in two parts. The wild survival, this is the part of the game that you have to learn good how to survive in the game, the basics, the season, the hounds and the seasonal bosses. After this you can enter the deep in lore gameplay(the optional bosses like BQ, Klaus, AC, CC, estc), the true is that Dont starve is about mystery, you have to learn to beat every challenge in the constant in order to survive better, i mean you can choose to not kill any boss and thats great or you can choose to kill some bosses to make your gameplay a lot easier. And finally to be honest with you i like how klei is making the things righ now, they are adding more early to mid bosses to the game and thats really cool, Dont Starve together is one of the few survival games that have these many bosses(the other being valheim), so you can think of Dont starve together as a survival soulslike game, and yeah i know the combat is not really that great but the bosses and how they are distributed around the map actually reminds me a soulslike game. Pretty awesome in my opinion. This all is funny cause i used to think DST was the most cheap and easy game of all the DS series but now after all these years and all the love from klei i think this game is really awesome, has his own soul, and its not a RoG multiplayer anymore. Thats my take from all this. Plus: Right now i havent played Sons of the forest yet but oh boy i think they are taking too much from dont starve with that one lmao, now they have a seasons system which to be fair i dont know if they take this from DS but there are not many survival games with a seasons system so who knows, And the other thing is the story, right now sons of the forest is about magical travel dimesion lol, the game even have a book named "parallel universes and travel between them" by tim the blanc(yeah the son of eric leblanc), and you know what other susrvival game is about multiple dimesions... thats right minecraft! XD, and dont starve of course. Remember that dont starve is not only about surviving, the survivors are trying to escape from this hell too, thats why wilson travel through some dimesion of the constant in order to escape dah XD Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BezKa Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 I really don't understand why people say the combat system is hard to learn in DS or DST. Just walk up to the thing, hit it as many times as you can before it hits you, and next time step away before it does. This is how I learned, on beefalos mostly. Hit once, dodge, hit x times, dodge. This pattern applies to a lot of mobs and bosses. And when you encounter an outlier you have enough grasp to experiment. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamehun20 Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 11 minutes ago, BezKa said: Just walk up to the thing, hit it as many times as you can before it hits you it's literally just walk back and forth Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evelo Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 22 minutes ago, BezKa said: I really don't understand why people say the combat system is hard to learn in DS or DST. Just walk up to the thing, hit it as many times as you can before it hits you, and next time step away before it does. This is how I learned, on beefalos mostly. Hit once, dodge, hit x times, dodge. This pattern applies to a lot of mobs and bosses. And when you encounter an outlier you have enough grasp to experiment. Completely agree. The hard part of DS/DST is figuring out what methods to survive the wilderness not so much the mobs. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashzer Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 15 minutes ago, gamehun20 said: it's literally just walk back and forth Honestly some people just seem to have no sense of rhythm so its difficult for them to kite without getting hit. Played with alot of people with 500+ hours who are the "team base builders" just cause they never could learn the rhythm of kiting for bosses. 9 minutes ago, Evelo said: Completely agree. The hard part of DS/DST is figuring out what methods to survive the wilderness not so much the mobs. Yeah but once you figure out the seasons, they never get harder, then its a case of finding and killing raid bosses. Literally like 95% of DST's bosses are raid bosses and its such a shame! DST desperately needs a "aporkcalpyse" like event that ds hamlet has! Otherwise the only late game you have for veteran players is megabasing and thats boring as f to me. Im sure other people feel the same way too Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evelo Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 5 minutes ago, Gashzer said: the only late game you have for veteran players is megabasing and thats boring as f to me. Im sure other people feel the same way too Yeah, I agree. I dislike megabasing. I tend to just play for 150-300 days before starting a new world. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 1 hour ago, slendyproject said: Big reason as to why combat needs an overhaul. Too confusing and unintuitive for new players, too simple and shallow for experienced players. The forge proved that combat in dst can be much more fun but the main game suffers from the baggage of early enemy design (for example see treeguards, spiders and spider warriors) so a lot of things would need to be reworked to see something like that. Maxwells rework and wolfgang being able to throw the dumbbells are moves in the right direction though. I don't see how making combat even more complex would make it any less confusing and unintuitive for newer players I also strongly disagree that combat is shallow for experienced players, that's something I hear a lot from people who think they've mastered the game's combat just because they rushed dragonfly on a pub as wigfrid and think there's no way to improve when in reality there's a ton of room for improvement in a lot of the fights, the raid bosses are beautifully designed for this kind of thing if you take the time to look into it further than just what's needed to kill them without hassle (it's not even limited to bosses either, kiting large groups of enemies can also easily overwhelm anyone who only knows how to count hits and dodge in completely isolated scenarios that they watched on a guide) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MondayNight Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 While I agree DST by this point needs some progression and probably something akin to a "hard mode", complex combat on the other hand or similar such mechanics akin Forge's are most-likely impractical for bulk player-base. Forge matches averaged around 8-10 minutes, were obviously a battle arena (with no exploration, seasons, starvation etc component), and - if playing with randoms - almost never you could score a win. In fact, if I remember well, only around 2-5% of all the people playing Forge 1.0 managed to beat its final boss and finish the arc. Yes, vast majority of players, even with those short game-sessions, weren't able to learn and adapt to the classes of characters/roles, types of combat, bait, stop/interrupt mobs' actions and whatnot. Couple this with "people just seem to have no sense of rhythm so its difficult for them to kite without getting hit" from regular/current DST and you'll end up with an epic fail of game and mechanics where solely very experienced teams of friends would be able to succeed in late-game if progressive difficulty and complex combat were to be implemented in Forge fashion. Also don't forget elaborate base-building, and "mega-basing" in particular - although not widespread in bulk player-base, it is the core of sand-box final constituent and the ultimate path of "from scarcity to bountifulness/horn of plenty" intrinsic DST journey: I doubt this segment of experienced players would fancy much a "when your base be bigger than amount of a number, a boss could attack you. Or as year goes, harder version of bosses could be spawned if you killed first one" approach since this would pretty much terminate any base-building probably past 1 screen-distance - in theory. Otherwise yes, DST ought to have some progression, as mentioned, new specialized armor and weapons, more enemy variety, biomes, meteorological conditions and seasonal variants (hail, snow storms, tornadoes, etc) - especially at sea. Now, with introduction of Pure Horror fuel and Dreadstone, I believe some macro-Insanity rework/update is upon us (2023 onward) probably centered on new Horror creatures, mechanics and that 1-eyed Eldritch Horror abomination (black tentacles mass) from Ancients' murals that's likely to be Alter's counterpart (it and Alter being "Them"). Perhaps a "horrorification" mechanic will be added in future, with stronger and "corrupted" (like the Ancients were) Constant mob variants, possibly even a "horror plague" of sorts affecting characters (lore-wise, in a retcon way, could be that what morphed Ancients into Shadow monsters was the Pure Horror corruption, and Nightmare Fuel is solely the end component). Time will tell. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-met Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 The opening post appears to be more of a rant about endgame items than anything else Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karitha Posted March 9, 2023 Author Share Posted March 9, 2023 3 hours ago, sylvia wander o said: warbucks didnt have a gun It still counts an gun I think 2 hours ago, NekoSoulx said: sons of the forest recently a lot Nope, never played it yet. I played onlyThe Forest. 2 hours ago, NekoSoulx said: The forest unlike dont starve together have almost zero replayability. When you learn where is all in caves(items, mutants, etc) the game becomes a little boring, theres is not much rng in the forest, the only reason in my opinion to play it again is to make a different contruction of your camp. That's not about the progression pal. It's about world's RNG which I think DST does it just fine. Ofcourse I would still want finding a thing in in a random created biome in random location. 2 hours ago, NekoSoulx said: Listen my fella dont starve together already have its own soul, its not copy of any other game and thats cause it doenst need it. I'm not talking about copy-paste something in another game. It's a common mechanic, almost like hunger in any game and sanity in amnesia and creature types in lovecraft. DST copies a lot, like other games do and there is nothing wrong about it. That's how art works I believe. Like Tarantino said: "I steal from every single movie ever made. I love it - if my work has anything it's that I'm taking this from this and that from that and mixing them together. If people don't like that, then tough titty, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal; they don't do homages." 2 hours ago, NekoSoulx said: Dont starve together as a survival soulslike game Add food and farming mechanic to dark souls and make bosses only drop vanity, armor and weapons. Would you still go for fight with bosses? I would not, I would make few farm until I make a base, after I make hunger no problem, I would quit from game. Because in that kind of game only thing that will force you to do something would be hunger. So in DST. The only reason I'm fighting with non-seasonal bosses is boredoom. They don't effect any part of game critically. So I don't have to fight them. 1 hour ago, MostMerryTomcat said: I doubt this segment of experienced players would fancy much a "when your base be bigger Exactly dude, that have a thin line that could make game annoying but deerclops does the same. There could be some totems that protect a zone, alarms that triggered by bosses to react faster, npcs to protect base etc. There is a lot of creative people in team, I'm sure how it's gonna be liked. I would freak out when I see the "big base boss" come for me, if I was a new player and that would be fine. The stress would make you build walls (yeah we need a rework for walls too), traps and smart locations. There should be always stress in game, when you get rid of your stress, you should get more! There will not be any quest but as your surviving get easier, charlie will send more to you. That's what I'm asking for. For now, game just turned into a base-building game which I think only enjoyable thing for me. 1 hour ago, MostMerryTomcat said: macro-Insanity rework/update That would be great to be honest. 2 hours ago, Gashzer said: Yeah but once you figure out the seasons, they never get harder, then its a case of finding and killing raid bosses. Literally like 95% of DST's bosses are raid bosses and its such a shame! DST desperately needs a "aporkcalpyse" like event that ds hamlet has! Otherwise the only late game you have for veteran players is megabasing and thats boring as f to me. Im sure other people feel the same way too Agree'd Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowercase skye Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Karitha said: It still counts an gun I think that's a gun that has nothing to do with warbucks, it's craftable by anybody. warbucks didn't have a gun Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karitha Posted March 9, 2023 Author Share Posted March 9, 2023 13 minutes ago, sylvia wander o said: that's a gun that has nothing to do with warbucks, it's craftable by anybody. warbucks didn't have a gun duhhh, that's not the point. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike23Ua Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 3 hours ago, Guille6785 said: I don't see how making combat even more complex would make it any less confusing and unintuitive for newer players I also strongly disagree that combat is shallow for experienced players, that's something I hear a lot from people who think they've mastered the game's combat just because they rushed dragonfly on a pub as wigfrid and think there's no way to improve when in reality there's a ton of room for improvement in a lot of the fights, the raid bosses are beautifully designed for this kind of thing if you take the time to look into it further than just what's needed to kill them without hassle (it's not even limited to bosses either, kiting large groups of enemies can also easily overwhelm anyone who only knows how to count hits and dodge in completely isolated scenarios that they watched on a guide) I’m going to counter this by discussing the Combat Update (literally called the Combat Update…) for Minecraft. Dont Starve/DSTs combat is too simplified and it’s been that way for far too long. If players of Minecraft could learn and embrace a completely overhauled combat system, players of DST could too.. AND to be completely fair about it: If DST wasn’t DST and was instead released as a DS 2 an official sequel with all these changes already included inside the game at launch- hardly no one would care or complain about it. Its just that DST is more like Minecraft: Aka a game that doesn’t get a “True Sequel” it instead gets content updates or dlc expansions to stay relevant. Also think of all the “new” Klei could add if they just added something like a “Jump” button.. I mean the game literally already has the jumping animations- both for jumping into wormholes or on/off boats. We could get mobs that unleash an AoE Wave we need to time our jumps over. Again: all features literally NO ONE would complain about if we’re introduced at launch in a DS 2. The problem comes in when people can’t accept change to what they’re comfortably familiar with. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 I think that DST is not like other games, and that is why I like DST. I don't enjoy other survival games as much. The reasons I like DST, and what I think is unique about it: The world is not gated off. If you want to immediately venture to the caves, ruins, ocean etc - you can go wherever you want. Nothing stops you from fighting bosses as soon as you get to them. There are only a few time-gates that prevent early access, such as a new moon to fight shadow pieces, and of course the progression of shadow pieces => afw and afw + crab => cc etc. But even there the delay is thematic, not artificial like "You must be level 20 to fight this boss." The game is knowledge and player-skill based. There is no artificial progression system where the game scales up forced damage or enemy dodge chance requiring you to have leveled your health or dex. There is no skill chart you must grind and spec out on every shard. If you know how to play the game, and are good at it you can join any world server and have that knowledge and skill help you. A good player who knows the game can instantly do many things that a lesser knowledgeable or skilled player could not do even if you gave them creative mode because stats and items matter much less then player knowledge, experience, and skill. The game is also incredibly endearing earning thousands of hours from my play. I like the different ways to approach bosses. People hate on Dfly wall method so much but the reality is the choice to approach the boss that way is one of the good things DST gives us. We aren't cornered into 1 or 2 strategies for every boss, rather we get a lot of flexibility including things like having bosses fight each other. This gives us room for creativity even after we've played for thousands of hours. This isn't to say I can't question and disagree with some things Klei does. I think they've generally failed at making the ocean content fun. There are too many things like sharks that are high risk and NO reward. Same with caves where a lot of biomes have little purpose to them. HOWEVER on the grand scale I feel Klei has delivered with the game in a unique way that has kept me playing over the years. I started DS before RoG when we only had winter and not-winter, and deerclops was the only boss. The game has grown a lot, and Klei has mostly done the right things to keep it growing. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloakingsumo198 Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 5 hours ago, Guille6785 said: I don't see how making combat even more complex would make it any less confusing and unintuitive for newer players I also strongly disagree that combat is shallow for experienced players, that's something I hear a lot from people who think they've mastered the game's combat just because they rushed dragonfly on a pub as wigfrid and think there's no way to improve when in reality there's a ton of room for improvement in a lot of the fights, the raid bosses are beautifully designed for this kind of thing if you take the time to look into it further than just what's needed to kill them without hassle (it's not even limited to bosses either, kiting large groups of enemies can also easily overwhelm anyone who only knows how to count hits and dodge in completely isolated scenarios that they watched on a guide) How many options do we "really" get for approaching combat? 5 hours ago, MostMerryTomcat said: Snip Nah man forge forces you to engage in the combat without a break while also forcing you to rely on your teammates unlike regular survival where you have the option to run, find better armor, or bring extra consumables/weaponry. There's too many variables and in my opinion adding forge combat will make regular dst combat easier unless mobs gain some type of compensation. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 31 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said: How many options do we "really" get for approaching combat? idk bee queen as an example - we can plant a stretch of roads to out speed her and her grumbles while whittling her down, blow through some pan flutes while tanking her, build up a bunny army, spawn the twin terrors, set up an oven, build a dozen catapults, ranged dps her down with blowdarts or slingshots, play Wendy etc. I think we got options and that is great. From Guille's perspective they probably have even more insights just into the actual kiting of the game too. While most combat is a simple counting and moving, there is animation cancelling to maintain dps as well as nuance in dodging like how you must dodge dfly in rage mode much differently then other bosses, and the ice attack + stun animation method to dodge dfly's lunge attack to do a 0 damage kill. I recall their video where they dodge AFW's cage attack by moving away at the right time and speed, as well as their positional play keeping them safe during AFW's low-sanity stun attack. There are a lot of ways to tackle the bosses and general game play of DST which I really think is why I like the game. I regularly play to day 2-300 and restart because I know I can do things differently and compare my outcomes. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted March 9, 2023 Share Posted March 9, 2023 44 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said: How many options do we "really" get for approaching combat? far more than frankly any other game I've ever played -melee combat while kiting to minimize damage (which in itself is a mechanic with a lot more depth than a lot of people give it credit for) -tank and spank at the cost of resources to speed up and simplify encounters (which brings its own set of options with different armor and healing types as well as different characters) -a lot of different options for followers: pigmen, bunnymen, spiders, merms, rock lobsters, bees, etc -indirect combat via traps -ranged combat options like blow darts and walter's slingshot (albeit pricey) -blow enemies up with gunpowder -aoe for crowds via weather pain or bramble husk -freeze and sleep enemies for crowd control -fire farms for high damage without direct player intervention -farms via houndius, catapults or tentacles -flingos to constantly interrupt enemies -more advantages in combat via certain characters like wendy or wigfrid -bring friends in to gain an advantage -outsmart mobs by restricting their movement -wildly change how you can react to certain attacks via speed boosting items or cobble roads -set mobs on fire to make them panic -lead mobs into each other like frogs and beefalo -simply ignore the mobs lmao you don't have to fight them etc etc now whether these are balanced properly or not is a different topic and I would like to see more love given to a lot of these options since they can be underwhelming, now if anyone thinks these "don't count" because it's cheese or whatever then I can't force you to change your opinion but I do think you're kind of missing the point of a survival sandbox Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterStuffed Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 1 hour ago, Guille6785 said: now whether these are balanced properly or not is a different topic and I would like to see more love given to a lot of these options since they can be underwhelming, now if anyone thinks these "don't count" because it's cheese or whatever then I can't force you to change your opinion but I do think you're kind of missing the point of a survival sandbox This confuses me. You appear to be against a combat system tune-up, then admit that a lot of those options in said combat system are underwhelming and need some tuning. Wouldn't the combat system tune-up you're arguing against fix this? I don't understand why this isn't relevant to the discussion when it is one of the main arguments for a combat overhaul. 1 hour ago, Guille6785 said: far more than frankly any other game I've ever played What games are you referring to? I can't say I've had the same experience. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evelo Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 1 hour ago, Guille6785 said: -aoe for crowds via weather pain or bramble husk Oh hey I spotted the way I kill Bee Queen every time. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/146414-the-problem-with-new-era-of-ds/#findComment-1624492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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