Characters who need a second rework

[Starlogy]

19 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Idk they tried that kind of mechanic with Wendy but it wasn't well recieved but who knows.

Only reason this was negatively recieved was because it heavily encouraged Wendy players to play a sort of "you vs. me" mentality with Abigail, as they would just throw Abigail to die while Wendy would sit there and not contribute due to not having a lot of HP.

Having scaling damage/damage reduction modifiers actually works really well when your source of damage is yourself vs. a follower mob (Abigail), so I could see something like that being added to Weremoose and being a good buff, rewarding ballsy players with much better combat potential.

By the way, another character recently added to the roster does this already and she's been almost universally loved by players.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Starlogy said:

Only reason this was negatively recieved was because it heavily encouraged Wendy players to play a sort of "you vs. me" mentality with Abigail, as they would just throw Abigail to die while Wendy would sit there and not contribute due to not having a lot of HP.

Having scaling damage/damage reduction modifiers actually works really well when your source of damage is yourself vs. a follower mob (Abigail), so I could see something like that being added to Weremoose and being a good buff, rewarding ballsy players with much better combat potential.

By the way, another character recently added to the roster does this already and she's been almost universally loved by players.

But it really didn't though her hp for high damage on abigial was a much higher hp threshold than Wanda's it seemed more like be were just against change even more so on a character who was normally very safe so what we ended up with was a extremely safe character with no real downside and that became a theme there after with the refreshes.

As for the Weremoose having scaling damage on a form that can't heal and immediately takes damage on turning back would lilely scare most players away from using it as it's far more punishing than Wanda with none of the benefits unless all aspects of the form get reworked.

[Lardee]

19 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

This doesn't really work though because in general the moose has worse survivability than Wendy on average since she can wear better armor with better damage reduction, is faster, and can deal more damage so giving a similar mechanic to a form that's arguably weaker than the character who had it previously I feel wouldbe precieved even worse because as it stands the moose is a disadvantaged state to fight in with minimal benefits.

Also Wendy's hp really wasn't that low for high damage when you considered armor and made a lot of mechanical sense for the character. I also feel like it added a really nice bitsweet irony Wendy wants to die to be closer to her sister but that in turn made Abigail fight harder to keep her from a simlar fate.

 

The reason the rework wasn't well received wasn't so much to do with the mechanic of tying damage to HP, it was the fact that in order to obtain damage that Wendy could previously easily obtain at night or in caves, she had to be well below less than half health which means you had to bring in powerful armor like thulecite gear or night armor and constantly manage your HP by intentionally getting damaged and using lots of weak healing items in order to merely match the DPS that you could easily access prior. 

Overall, the way in which they applied the mechanic to Wendy was a nerf.  Had they started Abigail's damage closer to 40 when Wendy was at full health, the scaling health DPS wouldn't have received the same backlash since it would have been a buff.

 

Since I and I think most others agree that Woodie needs a buff, I think the way we would apply the health mechanic is to keep the Weremoose the same when he's at or near full HP, and increase his stats from there the closer he gets to zero.  Since he starts where he's currently at and only gets better, I think this mechanic would be well received.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

14 hours ago, Notecja said:

Yes, I agree it sounds interesting and makes sort of lore sense. Just lemme tell story, as during Wendy rework I decided to give try DST again, just some time after I gave up (and gave up because during that time I was new to game, dying on day 6-10 and I didn't know too much about game).

During that time I didn't know how Wendy was changed. I saw big screen with her and I was wondering why she is featured. Just remembered from last play I need to kill something to make Abigail appear, and best Abigail is at night. So you can imagine how clueless I was, right? I placed flower on floor and tried to kill butterfly... Oh, I didn't even know I could just summon her. Then I when I was figuring out things, I was wondering why takes so much time to kill any spiders. Why? Maybe damage was spread between enemies? Why "night" is not working? And what are these potions?

Yes, later I checked Wiki and then I found out some super complicated math thing about how then Abigail dmg works. As absolutely clueless player I found that... err... complicated. But gave it a try. I missed when some time later it was reverted... wiki page still was with that old information. I was trying to be like low health to just get better damage. And I didn't know why it doesn't work. And Abby and me were dying.

It's not like to prove or not anything. It's just a story. Just a little insight how new funny and very different mechanics can just mess up when you don't track stuff. 

for that is important to make mechanics give feedback to the player like how klei, after community suggestions, added quotes to maxwell to inform the player that certain items increase his power

what happend to you happend to many people with wendy's refresh and for sure with other refresh and new characters. Since max refresh was announced i though about that people that used to summon shadows with the crafting tab and now not being able to do that xD

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

20 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

This doesn't really work though because in general the moose has worse survivability than Wendy on average since she can wear better armor with better damage reduction, is faster, and can deal more damage so giving a similar mechanic to a form that's arguably weaker than the character who had it previously I feel wouldbe precieved even worse because as it stands the moose is a disadvantaged state to fight in with minimal benefits.

Also Wendy's hp really wasn't that low for high damage when you considered armor and made a lot of mechanical sense for the character. I also feel like it added a really nice bitsweet irony Wendy wants to die to be closer to her sister but that in turn made Abigail fight harder to keep her from a simlar fate.

 

Expand  

The reason the rework wasn't well received wasn't so much to do with the mechanic of tying damage to HP, it was the fact that in order to obtain damage that Wendy could previously easily obtain at night or in caves, she had to be well below less than half health which means you had to bring in powerful armor like thulecite gear or night armor and constantly manage your HP by intentionally getting damaged and using lots of weak healing items in order to merely match the DPS that you could easily access prior. 

A log suit was perfectly fine because at half hp abigial was dealing in the 30s when her cap is 40 and not too much lower got you to 40 meaning that while your peak wasn't  as easy to mantain you were doing much more damage on average with minimal risk.

 

[Cloakingsumo198]

Wouldn't giving Woodie's forms a damage boost at low health a double edged sword because he already comes out of his forms dying.

You'd try to stay low hp as possible just to die cause of the hp drain after.

[Mike23Ua]

20 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Wouldn't giving Woodie's forms a damage boost at low health a double edged sword because he already comes out of his forms dying.

You'd try to stay low hp as possible just to die cause of the hp drain after.

Finally someone says it, Thank You 

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

But it really didn't though her hp for high damage on abigial was a much higher hp threshold than Wanda's it seemed more like be were just against change even more so on a character who was normally very safe so what we ended up with was a extremely safe character with no real downside and that became a theme there after with the refreshes.

As for the Weremoose having scaling damage on a form that can't heal and immediately takes damage on turning back would lilely scare most players away from using it as it's far more punishing than Wanda with none of the benefits unless all aspects of the form get reworked.

iirc Wendy scaled all the way.  Abi had max damage when Wendy was at 1 health.  It was pretty smart to give Wanda breakpoints instead.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

You'd try to stay low hp as possible just to die cause of the hp drain after

quick to eat food dishes and veggies are great for that but later you see woodies at 10hp fleeing from a terror beak and trying to eat a honey ham or meat stew, dying and saying "omg remove hunger drain!1!!1" xD

[Cloakingsumo198]

29 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

quick to eat food dishes and veggies are great for that but later you see woodies at 10hp fleeing from a terror beak and trying to eat a honey ham or meat stew, dying and saying "omg remove hunger drain!1!!1" xD

I mean there's still that transformation animation, plus the fact transformations can only last 4 mins at most if it's not fullmoon, with the added sanity drain while in said forms. I'm sure sanity monsters wouldn't be the only thing chasing either.

I see plenty of opportunities for players racing against time to be easily caught off guard. 

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Finally someone says it, Thank You 

I mean i did say that too...

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

iirc Wendy scaled all the way.  Abi had max damage when Wendy was at 1 health.  It was pretty smart to give Wanda breakpoints instead.

Huh i don't remember it only being 40 at 1 hp though maybe I'm remembering wrong?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

39 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

I see plenty of opportunities for players racing against time to be easily caught off guard. 

yes and for that the reward part from the risk vs reward mechanic needs to be buffed a little

also, some people forget that you can spam the charge as moose to get out quickly of a battle, not even terrorbeaks can chase you at time to bite you before you can recover stats. I saw suggestions in the past about giving inmunity frames for this reason which im agaisnt since it would remove a lot of potential heart atacks moments (and isnt necesary with goose speed, beaver speed and moose charge)

[Yuuko]

7 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Huh i don't remember it only being 40 at 1 hp though maybe I'm remembering wrong?

There were no breakpoints.  The more you lowered your health the higher abi's damage went.  It was kinda cool b/c at 1 health abi could solo Deerclops with just a spectral cure all, but all her fights were binary that way.  Either she had the damage and could tank through it, or you had to bring your health up from 1 and do it without her.

Klei said it pretty clearly, the problem with that design for Wendy was that they weren't playing as a team, either you dropped to 1 health and had Abi run it or you healed up and fought without her.

I think for the Moose it could be implemented well BUT it is also already done on Wanda...  idk if we need it done a second time...  Although the restrictions while in Moose form make it sound interesting and different enough to me.

[Mike23Ua]

Guys, guys just hear me out on this… what of Woodie was updated so that while in his Moose, Goose and Beaver forms he just PASSIVELY dropped resources while in those forms?!?!

Moose- Bearger Fur, Goose- Feathers, Beaver- Beefalo Wool/Beard Hair.

The idea would be that while being these animals he is shedding fur/ molten feathers.

Its simple, it’s creative, it provides CO-OP resources for characters who need those types of resources as part of their character kit (Willow Bernie Dolls, Wickerbottom Books, Wigfrid Song Scrolls) and most importantly it makes perfectly logical sense!

[Pinkamena11FazP]

Wes and Woodie, Wes just feels like a joke and as someone who actually struggles with weight issues it feels a bit rude to just tack on every unlucky trait onto him, I'd change his stats back to normal without that overly fast hunger loss problem. And to people who say he's meant to be a challenge doesn't mean he has to be unfair, many people can beat bosses as Wes and I would love to see more balloon items that could improve his character. Woodie on the other hand just feels like Wilson due to the removal of his sanity gain from planting trees, look at Walter who gains sanity from the trees itself. Add back in his sanity gain but make it smaller so it's not overpowered, and maybe more lines for Lucy with skins for Lucy? There's skins for the axes so why not Lucy? And Maybe as a fun thing that Woodie can throw Lucy like Riled Lucy from Forge as that's never going to come back so why not use things you already had to add onto Woodie. And please undo the Treegaurds don't spawn in Werebeaver mode, but mostly Woodie feels a bit bareboned aside from his were forms which makes you able to locate most of the "island content". Give Woodie something others can benefit from, maybe he can craft special thermals that last longer/are unbreakable but they take a bit longer to cool down/heat up.

[HeatAndRun]

I think at least fireproof falsetto effect should be changed. The spittlefish is too bothersome to get, even the effect does not worth the cost.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

48 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Klei said it pretty clearly, the problem with that design for Wendy was that they weren't playing as a team, either you dropped to 1 health and had Abi run it or you healed up and fought without her.

 

or you could be at low health and help her which would result in way more dps a than being afk at 1hp while wendy does the job and would increase abi's chances of survival against non aoe enemies

agree that wasnt the best design but neither was that white or black mechanic people claim...

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

or you could be at low health and help her which would result in way more dps a than being afk at 1hp while wendy does the job and would increase abi's chances of survival against non aoe enemies

agree that wasnt the best design but neither was that white or black mechanic people claim...

Eh, debatable sure - but when you present people with systems they are naturally going to look for the limits.  The limit was having 1 health AND fighting with Abi, and the next best thing was to just let Abi do it alone.  You could go moderate health and fight with Abi, but Wendy has penalized dps and iirc the damage gains for Abi were increased as Wendy's health decreased really encouraging a maximal playstyle.  I could be wrong on her scaling but I don't think it was linear where 10% health gave her 90% of her bonus damage...

[ArubaroBeefalo]

8 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Eh, debatable sure - but when you present people with systems they are naturally going to look for the limits.  The limit was having 1 health AND fighting with Abi, and the next best thing was to just let Abi do it alone.  You could go moderate health and fight with Abi, but Wendy has penalized dps and iirc the damage gains for Abi were increased as Wendy's health decreased really encouraging a maximal playstyle.  I could be wrong on her scaling but I don't think it was linear where 10% health gave her 90% of her bonus damage...

i think the limit was ~80 damage at minimum hp which means that you could be at low health and help abi and get more dps against individual enemies even with wendy's penalty...

[Mike23Ua]

I think we should move away from refreshes and instead focus on updating the game and gameplay.

Minecraft is the best selling video game of all time because of its ability to adapt and evolve over the years with new ideas, new mobs, new content.

MEANWHILE they keep anything that Carry’s the Minecraft license but doesn’t really feel like Minecraft as it’s own separate spin-off franchise such as Minecraft Dungeons & Minecraft Legends- while providing fans who enjoyed Minecraft more of what makes Minecraft well uhh Minecraft.

To put that into DS/DST Terms: there are some of you who desperately want Klei to bring back the Gorge & Forge events, but if I’m being completely honest about it… it’s like wanting more Mario Karts in Mario 64.. they’re intended to be separate things.. Meanwhile expansion packs like Reign of Giants, Shipwrecked, Hamlet & of course Return of Them all feel like more of what makes Dont Starve feel like well uhh..Don’t Starve.

If you’ve read this far your probably asking what any of this has to do with reworking characters, well I’ll explain hold on.. At FIRST Klei was taking an entire update to release a character rework/refresh, which left other things that could’ve used updates to be pushed further and further back on their schedule.

But LATER updates actually started blending BOTH new gameplay content, and character reworks into the same great update (examples Reap What You Sow update not only added a brand new totally revamped farming System, but it also added some nice tweaks to both Wurt and Wormwood at the same time, Meanwhile The WaterLogged update added new types of Spiders that would benefit Webber after his Refresh, and the actual Webber Refresh came with new world content in the form of adding a brand new Medic type spider to the Mama Spiders.

What am I getting at exactly? Recent updates instead of just being a Character rework/refresh, or a content update, or even a LIMITED TIME GAME MODE- have been also sprinkling in other forms of content: be it small character tweaks here and there as needed, a QoL or two, or even some cool new stuff that came in a QOL such as the Fencing Tool.

All of it implies that the days of JUST getting a rework as our update is over and Klei is instead also updating/adding to other areas of the game alongside those updates.

And I think that’s the route they should continue to move on from this point forward: if their content updates can benefit or hinder X Character then they should consider that when doing the update.

I really LOVED how RWYS gave us both amazing new farming mechanics and some great tweaks to Wurt/Wormwood.

[Cloakingsumo198]

I'd like to see willow get overheating immunity and then also be able to ride big bernie

[slendyproject]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I think we should move away from refreshes and instead focus on updating the game and gameplay.

Minecraft is the best selling video game of all time because of its ability to adapt and evolve over the years with new ideas, new mobs, new content.

MEANWHILE they keep anything that Carry’s the Minecraft license but doesn’t really feel like Minecraft as it’s own separate spin-off franchise such as Minecraft Dungeons & Minecraft Legends- while providing fans who enjoyed Minecraft more of what makes Minecraft well uhh Minecraft.

To put that into DS/DST Terms: there are some of you who desperately want Klei to bring back the Gorge & Forge events, but if I’m being completely honest about it… it’s like wanting more Mario Karts in Mario 64.. they’re intended to be separate things.. Meanwhile expansion packs like Reign of Giants, Shipwrecked, Hamlet & of course Return of Them all feel like more of what makes Dont Starve feel like well uhh..Don’t Starve.

The thing is that mario kart actually exists and even receives new content/sequels fairly regularly. Forge and gorge are literally unplayable unless you care for inaccurate mod recreations. And dont forget that the origin of the new farming mechanincs was the gorge (I so wish I could repeat this sentence with the fighting mechanincs and forge), so its strange to say that they dont feel like dont starve when one of the best received updates in recent memory is a direct consequence of the gorge having existed in the first place. The events would have been a really good way of trying out new mechanincs for future updates.

Also you are vastly oversimplifying why minecraft is successful. The content it receives is very little and very simple compared to basically any other game that gets updated regularly. Its very much an instance of right place right time combined with a lot of other factors, not an exact formula that can be followed.

I do agree with the general sentiment that character tweaks should be bundled into larger updates though, since only a few of them need attention anyway. Even woodie is fine, sure he could be better but he is not that much behind everyone else (winona and willow are a different matter though).