A discussion on Maxwell

[ZeRoboButler]

I wanted to start some discussion in regards to Maxwell's current state and what would be nice to see changed about him (or improved upon).

In the past we have seen what a refresh can offer to the cast, with some of the changes being almost Qol style changes or almost full scale and fundamental changes like Wx's changes (and some that are nice but have near pointless stuff added in, looking at you fire proof falsetto). 

As for Maxwell, I am uncertain as for what would be best for him, Maxwell seems to have a lot of potential when you consider his background and how that could translate to gameplay. Examples of such, that I have seen talked about -

• A proficiency with magic, wither its using them more efficiently, having additional skills or effects tied to his use of them, upgrading them in some fashion or a myriad of potentially cool features that would make sense for ex-king of shadows to know how to do. (and yes I am aware that it's terribly ironic that Wanda is better at this then max)
• A full lean into the puppet master concept, where Maxwell has more control over his shadows, and potentially has the ability to exert some sort of control over creatures of the constant, having his own shadow-y equivalents of mobs with additional effects, or just outright possession.

In my case, I should like something adjacent to a minor magic rework/refresh, where some of the less useful items have their original functionality in tact but now have other effects as well, that way those who liked the niche effects or uses can still use them.

With the introduction of Warly and Wormwood we saw a change to the farming system, hopefully with Maxwell's refresh we can see some slight updates to the magic, the most glaring of the items being the fire staff and nightlight. We could also enjoy new magic items that could be fun to use, there is a lot of potential there.

As he stands right now max has a couple things going for him - 

• Maxwell has the ability to change his maximum sanity, and many use this to farm nightmare fuel, some to get beard hair from rabbits for easy meat effigies, all the while having infinite tools. (provided they don't get sneezed at and die instantly)
• He gathers rocks and wood in mass very well, and at a point, living logs become something he gets a lot of as well.
• A bit simple but he can create direct paths on the ocean by removing sea stacks
• on the topic of niche the shadow duelist can be used abnormally in some cases to do very specific deeds but it can be very finicky, like killing the giant tentapillars.
• and who could forget, 6.67 sanity gain down from his original 20, I am uncertain of how to feel about it. It's nice for trying to focus on other things rather than being insane but, the entire cast has access to simple ways to rectify it like sleep and food. (I mean heck, wig, wortox, willow, wendy and wormwood, have the some of the easiest control over sanity and in a lot of cases it's better than that of max, who seemed to originally have that be a part of his design)

it is safe to say that the designs of the original cast before they came over to dst from ds, was rather simple, and in a lot of cases, a simple design is not a bad thing. Even before wig had her refresh, people where content with running around killing stuff by clubbing it to death with a spear made of gold, and people still do it and love it.

In the case of Maxwell, what kind of "gameplay fantasy" is trying to be fulfilled? We have some lore for why Maxwell aught to be interesting but as far as gameplay is concerned, he is a walking lore machine with infinite tools that have health instead of durability - this word being very generous as they are just butterflies with tools.

So I ask you all, with characters who can turn into beast of the north, have control over time, read magic books, upgrade to fit their way of doing things, or even cook food so good it makes you stronger and sturdier, what should Maxwell be as a playable character in your eyes?

Be it a Magician, a fallen king of shadows, a puppet master, a mix of all of the aforementioned, or something else entirely?                

[WebberMain]

I´m going to repeat myself, but i believe Maxwells rework should embrace his connection to Them and the shadows. As Maxwell once said "There is no limit to the power of shadows". I think he should dabble in the darkest spells available. Necromancy, lets say. According to Maxwell, life giving amulet channels the darkest energies. Why not give him the ability to ressurect dead mobs around him in twisted shadow forms under his command? What about casting powerful curses that confuse, mutate or ensnare his foes. By reading the Codex, he certainly learned something about the old tradition of weaving things out of shadows the same way his predecessor, the Fuelweaver did. 
Maxwell should be able to gain acces to the knowledge of the Codex trough sacrifices. To unlock more power of the Codex, he should give some of his, thus for the cost of his max sanity/health/hunger/ and items, he could get acces to darker sorceries.
I really like the idea of giving him abilities that we have already seen from him in the shorts. For Wickerbottom, he made a shadow proxy, that he was able to control remotely. He was able to buff Wolfgang trough the use of shadow magic.
So I´d like to see some of this implemented
cast curses
blood magic(use comes at the cost of his health)
necromancy
shadow proxy
buffing other survivors
special shadow "weaving"(shadow creations)
power of the codex locked behind rituals( item/stats sacrifices)each ritual changes the looks of the codex, becoming more twisted and sentient-like
sanity requirements(for some spells he needs to be sane, while for others he needs to be insane)
power of the codex grows as the moon wanes, peaking at the new moon

[ZeRoboButler]

Those would be really fun, although I do worry, after the horror hounds and pengul situation, If klei would be wiling to do stuff like that. The necromantic and dark side of things would be fascinating to explore, I really do have to wonder how the klei devs feel about going down that kind of path, I can't recall if they really commented on it before.

I really like those ideas all things considered! 

[WebberMain]

2 minutes ago, ZeRoboButler said:

Those would be really fun, although I do worry, after the horror hounds and pengul situation, If klei would be wiling to do stuff like that. The necromantic and dark side of things would be fascinating to explore, I really do have to wonder how the klei devs feel about going down that kind of path, I can't recall if they really commented on it before.

I really like those ideas all things considered! 

Yeah, its a sad thing that they won´t go the gore route. I thought more about shadow mutations, so the mobs would look more twisted just like the shadow pieces look in their later stages. It looks creepy, but not gore-y

[ZeRoboButler]

Yeah in all honesty, It really wouldn't fit the style, a little morbid is good but we don't need some viscera clean up detail levels of gibs all over. We have skeletons of previous survivors, ghost of varying types and a literal soul eating demon, but there is such a thing as too dark. We kinda have stuff that is goes as far as unnerving like the way that the shadow knight looks in its 3rd stage or perhaps the new Ancient guardian and how he leaks fuel as the fight goes on.

I think that A.G. actually gave me some hope that we could still have stuff be a little creepy. 

[Rylanor]

Only thing I'm hyped for in Maxwell rework is new unique skin, his skins are so mediocre right now, even Verdant and Formal somehow turned out 6/10 at best

[Harrowick]

I do like the idea of doubling down on his "Puppet Master" title by letting him have some control over shadow creatures, improved shadows, and possession/shadow mobs sounds very fun.

[maxwell_winters]

7 hours ago, ZeRoboButler said:

Those would be really fun, although I do worry, after the horror hounds and pengul situation,

Wait, people didn't like them? I love their designs. 

[Harrowick]

8 minutes ago, maxwell_winters said:

Wait, people didn't like them? I love their designs. 

I think some people found them too scary, so we never saw anymore lunar designs.

A shame, it was a chance to bring some horror back, but alas.

[BezKa]

14 minutes ago, KM_Harrowick said:

never saw anymore lunar designs

It was a step in the direction, but I do wish there was more.

[Harrowick]

2 minutes ago, BezKa said:

It was a step in the direction, but I do wish there was more.

Oh right the birds! I never see these guys since I don't usually get so far as the moonstorm event. Crab King being the main reason I don't partake haha

[maxwell_winters]

7 minutes ago, KM_Harrowick said:

I think some people found them too scary, so we never saw anymore lunar designs.

A shame, it was a chance to bring some horror back, but alas.

I guess that's the reason why The Lunar Grotto mobs are more goofy-looking. Anyway, nurse spiders are still creepy. So Klei didn't give up on horror designs but tuned them down a bit. 

[Vultureneck]

He notably also has a strong affection for the clockwork creatures, if he could build or influence them in some way I would welcome that addition. I like the idea of him buffing other survivors as well, it fits his aesthetic of having a lot of influence/power on the things around him.