[Opinion] Change To Bookcase Recipe Is Good

[AugyBear]

2 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

-snip- 

Ah, I misunderstood. I was under the impression we were debating about Living Logs vs. boards, not 4 living logs vs 7.

I agree with you that 7 would be unnecessary, and honestly a little silly. Having living logs in the recipe is no problem, since I stand by my statement of people naturally acquiring them through normal gameplay, and speedrunners/experienced players can, as you stated, rush the Grotto if they want to get them quickly.

I do take some offense to you implying I'm telling people their opinions don't matter, as that wasn't even implied anywhere in my post. We're all trying to have a constructive debate about the game's overall design, so my feedback isn't any more valuable than yours.

I will however admit that I completely forgot about console players' inability to install mods in my post, and that's definitely my bad.

[WhackE]

I think 4 L. logs is good, not just because it feels fitting for what the structure does, but because it makes it a mid to late game build for wicker, and unless you really want it quickly, you can always go to the grotto. Or if you have friends, Woodie and Wormwood exist. 

I don't think it should change, 4 L. logs is pretty reasonable. 

 

[goblinball]

On 7/28/2022 at 9:16 PM, goatt said:

That's true. I personally wish it changed.

 

Please don’t change the everything encyclopedia, I HATE crafting the prestihatitator, it honestly takes up more time than crafting the shadow manipulator. Wickerbottom being able to craft the shadow manipulator early is perfectly fine, and removing her ability to do so is one of the most unreasonable, random, anti-fun suggestions I’ve seen in a while.

[Ohan]

4 hours ago, goblinball said:

removing her ability to do so is one of the most unreasonable, random, anti-fun suggestions I’ve seen in a while.

Welcome to the wicker beta forums 

May i interest you in a Lunar Grimoire recipe that requires Pearl’s pearl? 

9 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Lmao I just realized if the bookcase was a manipulator recipe, you could just use an encyclopedia to craft it at a science machine.

Basically this idea is worse than I thought .

That was my point lol! 

Not only are they suggesting locking the bookcase behind s.manip, but after becoming aware of the encyc (a core part of the survivor theyre making a suggestion for) instead of adjusting they doubled down and suggested the encyc should give every s.manip recipe EXCEPT the bookcase to still make their suggestion work… like… 

[goatt]

On 7/29/2022 at 5:38 PM, HowlVoid said:

You weren't even aware that wicker can craft manipulator tier craftables with the encyclopedia.

I was wrong about that. It can discredit some of the arguments I made earlier than that, but it doesn't disqualify me from contributing to the discussion.

 

On 7/29/2022 at 5:38 PM, HowlVoid said:

If I have to explain why these things are fundamentally different, you don't understand video games.

I asked you to explain something as a way to point out the weakness of your argument, but instead of providing actual explanation or counter-argument, you criticized me that I "don't understand video game" for asking you to explain it. That's an unproductive conversation I'm disappointed at.

 

On 7/29/2022 at 5:38 PM, HowlVoid said:

I'd say making uniformed proposal is not only misleading, but also harmful to the discussion.

Also, strange given you're the one who keeps making the comparison. "A shadow sword is locked behind a manipulator", isn't that what you said? 

But now it's misleading to compare the two? 

I don't understand your question. I suggested bookcase be a Tier 2 thing like dark sword. At the same time, it be a Tier 3 tech station to unlock Tier 3 books. What's your problem with it?

 

On 7/29/2022 at 5:38 PM, HowlVoid said:

This is word soup at this point.

Your "ground and floor" word soup is not good. Bookcase and shadow manipulator are different because bookcase has other significant functionality as storage and repairing station, which is what people use majority of the time. It's function to unlock tech is used for probably less than several min in long running server.

 

On 7/29/2022 at 5:38 PM, HowlVoid said:

Exactly as you said, you're adding an arbitrary tier 3 shadow tier on a single character that is not present on any other character. For the sake of... Progression? You claim it's progression already found in the game, but then go to make a made up tier that doesn't exist. 

Book case is a tier 2 item but a Tier 3 tech station. The actual Tier 3 items are the new books added. Should those books be in Tier 3? No. Because Tier 3 is a new idea that I just proposed. But the actual adding of Tier 3 to the game will require tuning. Some of the books that are currently in Tier 3 will need to be moved to Tier 2. Some Tier 3 books can be tuned up to be more powerful (number tuning).

Wickerbottom can be the first character with Tier 3 because she does have tons of books. Currently, the books are divided among structures without the consideration of Tier 3 tech, that's why solely adding Tier 3 to the current system will look a bit odd. But Tier 3 can improve book division with proper adjustment.

 

On 7/29/2022 at 5:38 PM, HowlVoid said:

Trying to reduce tedium to make progress more fluent is a valid argument that even the developers themselves have tried to implement time, and time, and time again 

I agree that devs need to reduce tedium. But not to reduce YOUR tedium, but to reduce the tedium in experience of the majority (including new and intermediate players). You projected your tedium as if it's everyone's tedium. Your tedium is just your tedium. You can say my suggestion is tedious to you, and I have no problem with that. But saying "tedium=progress" as if my design was to utilize tedium to lengthen the task, to shoot down my suggestion is just bad. Besides, It twisted my original meaning, and smeared my well-intentioned suggestion.

 

On 7/29/2022 at 5:38 PM, HowlVoid said:

You on the other hand want make things up and add things that don't exist and go as far as brake balance that's already in the game. Add arbitrary tiers that don't exist, add arbitrary reasons such as "because she needs to graduate from magic school" (if this isn't subjective I don't know what is), going as far as speaking on behalf of Wicker bottom players that delaying her magic equates to a better experience.

You accuse me of making things up when I only suggested new ideas.

You accused me of adding arbitrary tiers that don't exist when I only suggested tier 3.

You accused me of speaking on behalf of Wicker players when I've never done so. I've never shared MY experience playing wicker bottom. I never said it's objectively better than the current system. I only said that's how i imagined her.

My tone is soft, my suggested is posed as, ... just a suggestion. When I defend my idea, I don't convince people to like it as everyone has their own preference, and I don't represent anyone as I've never conducted any survey, and I don't defend it so that it can be accepted. I only defend it for its value, and I defend it so that it can be discussed in clarity.

But you have accused me of different thing and smeared my suggestion under this thread, by accusing me of adding tedium as progress, playing word soup, not understanding video games, etc.

Sorry, I'm not interested in nasty verbal exchange in any way. I'm only interested in the main topic.

 

On 7/29/2022 at 8:03 PM, HowlVoid said:

Op wants to increase the cost from 4 living logs, to 7 living logs and that is ADDING a chore that was not a requirement before.

Op wanted 6 living logs (3 for shadow manipulator, 3 for bookcase), as underscored in original post.

 

The exchange hasn't been very pleasant with you this time. I think we should just end it here.