The Lunar book discussion is making me laugh a lot.

[Cuernito.]

Well lets start by saying that i believe lunar book is not that great to have the kind of discussion this forum is having lmao, but im gonna try to explain this fast.

I agreed with some people about the opal gem being fair for this book but i only believed this cause the original cost was so cheap. However recently i got a better idea(or at least i think is a good idea) about the ingredients for this silly book, and i want to share this with the forum to see what ya think.

what about 4 moon moth wings, a glommers flower and a pair of glommer wings? just think about it, doing it this way wicker is never going to rush this book cause she is gonna have to wait till the first full moon to happen, not only this but because the nature of the flower and glommer itself sometimes wicker is gonna be at the mercy of other people. Using glommer to restrict wicker can make her have to wait till the next full moon to have another chance to make the book. Example; A non wicker charater got the flower before her so now wicker have to ask that person or even the whole server if she can have the flower to make the book(well she can kill glommer btw but if the player that have the flower refuses to give it to her then thats gg). I think this is a good solution cause now the recipe is not cheap and if some people on the server decide to not give wicker the flower then she will have to wait till day 31 or 32 to have another chance.

And finally i have to say that having an stinky book to trigger full moon is not as strong as some people think it is, the sad reality is that there are 2 books that are the strongest books now, but almost nobody is paying attention, yeah im talking about on tentacles and apicultural notes, yep on tentacles is as strong as ever and as cheap as usual, and about the apicultural notes i can almost guarantee you that the majority of wickers are gonna try to rush this book as soon as the update arrives so i dont really see a point in discussin the silly lunar book, it can stay as expensive as it is right now, i dont really care. it just buggs me out how people are discussin about that silly book meanwhile klei buffed apicultural notes after nerfing it...

[robesssssssssss]

OP is because its function is irreplaceable

Use 6 moonbutterfly+2papyrus and can only be used once

[Random Guy000]

11 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

Example; A non wicker charater got the flower before her so now wicker have to ask that person or even the whole server if she can have the flower to make the book(well she can kill glommer btw but if the player that have the flower refuses to give it to her then thats gg).

FM = Glommer = FM. Implying that you are playing with more then one person, you can just ask them to get glommer again(or get him for them), nobody loses, but you get the book(who the hell would want to carry glommer around anyway?)

14 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

I think this is a good solution cause now the recipe is not cheap and if some people on the server decide to not give wicker the flower then she will have to wait till day 31 or 32 to have another chance.

If this theoretical glommer lover doesnt give you the flower, or never leaves the server for the flower to drop, you wont be able to get another one

[Cuernito.]

2 minutes ago, Random Guy000 said:

FM = Glommer = FM. Implying that you are playing with more then one person, you can just ask them to get glommer again(or get him for them), nobody loses, but you get the book(who the hell would want to carry glommer around anyway?)

If this theoretical glommer lover doesnt give you the flower, or never leaves the server for the flower to drop, you wont be able to get another one

First one is about restrict wicker and her power over the world, of course this doesnt matter in a solo world(i was thinking about woodie suffering to be honest).

And second as i wrote before wicker can pretty much kill the glommer, you have to learn to read my friend, i put glommers wings as another imgredient for the book so of course wicker is gonna kill it, and you know with no glommer in the world even if the flower reminds he is still going to respawn.

[Random Guy000]

3 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

And second as i wrote before wicker can pretty much kill the glommer, you have to learn to read my friend, i put glommers wings as another imgredient for the book so of course wicker is gonna kill it, and you know with no glommer in the world even if the flower reminds he is still going to respawn.

Whats with the insults mate? I did make a mistake, didnt remember that killing glommer without having the flower makes him respawn anyway, but doesnt it make this recipe even worse? Wicker will just kill glommer anyway, and then the player with the flower might as well give it to her because it is useless to him

[Cuernito.]

9 minutes ago, Random Guy000 said:

Whats with the insults mate? I did make a mistake, didnt remember that killing glommer without having the flower makes him respawn anyway, but doesnt it make this recipe even worse? Wicker will just kill glommer anyway, and then the player with the flower might as well give it to her because it is useless to him

As i said before not giving wicker the flower is about restriction, and the flower can be used as fuel so its not useless at all, and it last some days before disapering.

And about your mistake, well i made a mistake too assumising that you just didnt read my post at all, but thats all, no insults btw if you got offended, well thats on you.

[Random Guy000]

2 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

The flower can be used as fuel so its not useless at all

Damn

[PetulantPansy]

The actual funny thing is that people are all worked up about the lunar book, while the rain book is far more impactful and has way more grief potential. 

 

With a full moon, only woodie suffers. Other people can farm glommer, werepigs, and do the moonstone event. Being able to alter the constant and moon cycle is powerful, but as far as game play goes, it's not that impactful. The rain book? Make it rain all autumn. Make it rain all autumn in the caves. Make it rain all summer in the caves. See how people like that. Having the ability to control the rain is far more significant game play wise too. Easier to farm, good for the summer, control frog rain, potential to ignore rain gear in the spring. It might even nullify the ice/fire staff set piece. 

[maxwell_winters]

7 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

The actual funny thing is that people are all worked up about the lunar book, while the rain book is far more impactful and has way more grief potential. 

Not true. I've been saying that Practical Rain needs a more justifiable recipe ever since the rework dropped. I think everyone is more worked up about Grimoire because the moon is established as a much stronger force in than the rain. 

[Mysterious box]

41 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

The actual funny thing is that people are all worked up about the lunar book, while the rain book is far more impactful and has way more grief potential. 

 

With a full moon, only woodie suffers. Other people can farm glommer, werepigs, and do the moonstone event. Being able to alter the constant and moon cycle is powerful, but as far as game play goes, it's not that impactful. The rain book? Make it rain all autumn. Make it rain all autumn in the caves. Make it rain all summer in the caves. See how people like that. Having the ability to control the rain is far more significant game play wise too. Easier to farm, good for the summer, control frog rain, potential to ignore rain gear in the spring. It might even nullify the ice/fire staff set piece. 

Neither book is ok existing if you want my true opinion regardless of fun it's bad game design for a multiplayer game another player should not have the level of control wickerbottom has over her peers being able to effectively remove a character from the game will always be the biggest offender regardless of how popular they are but I understand most people don't care which is disappointing. Being able to tell a entire server no to fighting fuel weaver is also really bad being able to turn every season into spring is still bad but alot more manageable than the full moon. Honestly I'm sure Kiel regrets making these books and taking them away would cause a outcry because people are acting like these aren't the most controversial perks ever released.

[maxwell_winters]

11 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

<>

If I were to make a lunar-phase changing item for DST, I would make it a stationary structure (moon rock + irri gem + yellow moonlens)  everyone on the servers has to connect to if they want to summon the full moon. And you would be able to pick between the full and the new moon. It would have 7-10 uses after which the station can be recharged with yellow moonlens. 

As for the Rain book, it should summon a short drizzle which is enough to water the plants but not enough to annoy the players. Or add a cooldown to the book, so Wicker would say "I shouldn't middle with the elements that frequently"

[xxXolot]

24 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Being able to tell a entire server no to fighting fuel weaver

I don't think you should make your argument base on bad player faith, theoretically I could rush the chess piece as anyone and burn the sketch from marble and you would have a hell of time just trying to build the sculpture because you need to getting the trinket from tumble weed for the sketch, or even simpler just mine all the fossil before you and leave.

Player have all the control whether they are Wickerbottom or not so that argument doesn't quite stand.

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, xxXolot said:

I don't think you should make your argument base on bad player faith, theoretically I could rush the chess piece as anyone and burn the sketch from marble and you would have a hell of time just trying to build the sculpture because you need to getting the trinket from tumble weed for the sketch, or even simpler just mine all the fossil before you and leave.

Player have all the control whether they are Wickerbottom or not.

It's not a bad faith argument however do you really believe players will ask Wickerbottom to stop making full moons to put Woodie at ease in a multiplayer setting? People are already saying who cares about Woodie or even just downplaying it and even with the shadow pieces you don't have to have malicious intent to prevent it just have the power to have the final say on the matter doesn't mean you'd be doing it specifically to harm other players.

But that aside a bad player faith argument is specifically the leaning point of the book not requiring a irrdecescent gem.

[Arcwell]

46 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

being able to effectively remove a character from the game will always be the biggest offender regardless of how popular they are but I understand most people don't care which is disappointing.

That's referring to Woodie, right? I agree that full moon is problematic for him (it's already absurd with moon storms), but it should be fixed on the Woodie-side of things rather than nerfing Wickerbottom. To me it's like saying Warly's dishes shouldn't exist because Wolfgang exists, or saying Wurt shouldn't exist because the merm villages she creates are hostile to normal players.

46 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Being able to tell a entire server no to fighting fuel weaver is also really bad being able to turn every season into spring is still bad but alot more manageable than the full moon.

That sounds like griefing. I don't think any reasonable Wickerbottom would do that if they understand the consequences. By that same argument you could say hammers shouldn't be able to destroy other players' structures.

15 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

do you really believe players will ask Wickerbottom to stop making full moons to put Woodie at ease in a multiplayer setting?

No, but that's a problem with Woodie's character, not Wickerbottom's (consider the same problem occurs whenever anyone activates moon storms).

Also, I know it's not really the solution you're looking for, but I've heard hiding in a bush hat before the full moon strikes prevents Woodie from transforming. Hopefully that can at least help a bit until Klei fixes Woodie's issue.  

[xxXolot]

19 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

however do you really believe players will ask Wickerbottom to stop making full moons to put Woodie at ease in a multiplayer setting?

Yea definitely why not, if I am a Woodie I am definitely asking.
 

19 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

But that aside a bad player faith argument is specifically the leaning point of the book not requiring a irrdecescent gem.

That I agree, but that is more of "Better not to encourage people to do it", Since altering the recipe to Astral Detector / Distilled Knowledge can actually keep the supposed difficulty that Iridescent Gem bring and wouldn't encourage people to steal. Unless you think turn on Archive is somehow just make it too difficult / it doesn't fit lore / too obscure to go through, there is no reason to not change it to Astral Detector / Distilled Knowledge.

[Ohan]

30 minutes ago, xxXolot said:

I don't think you should make your argument base on bad player faith,

This encapsulates 85-90% of the criticisms wrt the grimoire. Bad faith worst case hypotheticals brought about by evil dastardly cartoon villain wickerbottom players who are somehow immune to vote kick or incapable of being reasoned with.

30 minutes ago, xxXolot said:

Player have all the control whether they are Wickerbottom or not so that argument doesn't quite stand.

in one ear and out the other for some.

people are seemingly still stuck in the dst era where willow was uniquely considered a griefer character because she spawns with a torch instead of needing to craft one. 

[PetulantPansy]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Neither book is ok existing if you want my true opinion regardless of fun it's bad game design for a multiplayer game another player should not have the level of control wickerbottom has over her peers being able to effectively remove a character from the game will always be the biggest offender regardless of how popular they are but I understand most people don't care which is disappointing. Being able to tell a entire server no to fighting fuel weaver is also really bad being able to turn every season into spring is still bad but alot more manageable than the full moon. Honestly I'm sure Kiel regrets making these books and taking them away would cause a outcry because people are acting like these aren't the most controversial perks ever released.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you say but the lunar book, apiculture book, and the rain rituals book are the most useful books in her rework imo. I don't play wicker a lot but I'd imagine that wickers will be outraged if any of the 3 get taken out or nerfed further.

There are a few problems imo

1. The constant isn't particularly challenging anymore so it's really hard for the devs to add new cool mechanics without making the game even easier.

2. There are only so many unique perks/play styles that are out there. Coming up with 18 different one of those is really challenging. So it's not surprising that the dev's stuck with her books and didn't introduce a new mechanic. (and ill be honest, I haven't read all the forum posts but none of the "new mechanic" ideas sound appealing.) So if we focus just on her books, this is pretty much what we get. 

[Mysterious box]

5 minutes ago, Ohan said:

This encapsulates 85-90% of the criticisms wrt the grimoire. Bad faith worst case hypotheticals brought about by evil dastardly cartoon villain wickerbottom players who are somehow immune to vote kick or incapable of being reasoned with.

in one ear and out the other for some.

people are seemingly still stuck in the dst era where willow was uniquely considered a griefer character because she spawns with a torch instead of needing to craft one. 

Simple difference is when willow did it only hindered people this book not only effects the entire server at once pushing back world events but benefits alot of players in the process so it'll cause a divide where one side holds the cards it's just bad faith alround.

 

19 minutes ago, xxXolot said:

That I agree, but that is more of "Better not to encourage people to do it", Since altering the recipe to Astral Detector / Distilled Knowledge can actually keep the supposed difficulty that Iridescent Gem bring and wouldn't encourage people to steal. Unless you think turn on Archive is somehow just make it too difficult / it doesn't fit lore / too obscure to go through, there is no reason to not change it to Astral Detector / Distilled Knowledge.

Personally I've brought up many times I'm not committed to the idea of it being that gem 

 

25 minutes ago, xxXolot said:

Yea definitely why not, if I am a Woodie I am definitely asking.

You'd likely be promptly ignored unless you were the host.

 

27 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

That's referring to Woodie, right? I agree that full moon is problematic for him (it's already absurd with moon storms), but it should be fixed on the Woodie-side of things rather than nerfing Wickerbottom. To me it's like saying Warly's dishes shouldn't exist because Wolfgang exists, or saying Wurt shouldn't exist because the merm villages she creates are hostile to normal players.

No this would be the equivalent of for every merm house wurt made hunger drain of non merms on the server increased by 5 per minute.

 

28 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

That sounds like griefing. I don't think any reasonable Wickerbottom would do that if they understand the consequences. By that same argument you could say hammers shouldn't be able to destroy other players' structures.

This is a problem of numbers context matters there are things people wish to do using the full moon and people will not agree on that isn't griefing however Wickerbottom still has the final say on time gated events.

 

31 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

No, but that's a problem with Woodie's character, not Wickerbottom's (consider the same problem occurs whenever anyone activates moon storms).

If a character requires a change due to a small part of another character's perk it's a problem with that character moon storming effecting him is bad i agree but it's also something most players will never have to deal with not that it makes it ok.

[Ohan]

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Simple difference is when willow did it only hindered people this book not only effects the entire server at once pushing back world events but benefits alot of players in the process so it'll cause a divide where one side holds the cards it's just bad faith alround.

Endless concern trolling continues.

Bad faith +- means u assume the other party will do the worst possible thing. I dont understand how ur applying it here. 

By the way you guys are aware that the grimoire only has three reads right? For the cartoon villain vote-kick immune unreasonable wickerbottom player in your imagination to hold an entire server hostage with endless full moons they will need multiple copies and a bookcase to recharge them in.

Whats stopping their downtrodden helpless server subjects from rising up and taking the grimoires out of the bookcase when its recharging? Why will nobody start a vote kick? 

The grimoire criticisms have overwhelmingly been an endless stream of imaginary scenarios where the only possible outcome is the worst and where every other player involved cannot be reasoned with and is intent on doing evil. That or operating imaginary day 5 werepig farms is op. The issue changes from day to day. 

[Cuernito.]

12 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Endless concern trolling continues.

Bad faith +- means u assume the other party will do the worst possible thing. I dont understand how ur applying it here. 

By the way you guys are aware that the grimoire only has three reads right? For the cartoon villain vote-kick immune unreasonable wickerbottom player in your imagination to hold an entire server hostage with endless full moons they will need multiple copies and a bookcase to recharge them in.

Whats stopping their downtrodden helpless server subjects from rising up and taking the grimoires out of the bookcase when its recharging? Why will nobody start a vote kick? 

The grimoire criticisms have overwhelmingly been an endless stream of imaginary scenarios where the only possible outcome is the worst and where every other player involved cannot be reasoned with and is intent on doing evil. That or operating imaginary day 5 werepig farms is op. The issue changes from day to day. 

you actually made me laugh, yep yep i agree the grimoire aka silly lunar book is just getting a lot of attention for the wrong reason, i just laugh a lot when i read about full moon bein op cause werepig farms and moonglass farms. The true is that this book is pretty meh in early game, just some light to help the noobs to not die at day 3. xD

[Mysterious box]

17 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Endless concern trolling continues.

Bad faith +- means u assume the other party will do the worst possible thing. I dont understand how ur applying it here. 

By the way you guys are aware that the grimoire only has three reads right? For the cartoon villain vote-kick immune unreasonable wickerbottom player in your imagination to hold an entire server hostage with endless full moons they will need multiple copies and a bookcase to recharge them in.

Whats stopping their downtrodden helpless server subjects from rising up and taking the grimoires out of the bookcase when its recharging? Why will nobody start a vote kick? 

The grimoire criticisms have overwhelmingly been an endless stream of imaginary scenarios where the only possible outcome is the worst and where every other player involved cannot be reasoned with and is intent on doing evil. That or operating imaginary day 5 werepig farms is op. The issue changes from day to day. 

Problem with this is your argument everyone will always be on the same page and that any concerns involving the topic don't matter because you feel they're not impactful enough to matter if that's not a problem then honestly i don't know what else to say I'm not saying remove the book but i am saying it is a problem and pretending werepig farms is the only benefit of full moons is just a lie so I don't get why you keep pushing this.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, xxXolot said:

Yea definitely why not, if I am a Woodie I am definitely asking.

Yeah see the thing about that is, & I’m sure not even the developers at Klei take into consideration often is that they will have players of varying skill levels/knowledge levels playing the game-

I mentioned in Another thread about how some truly noob friends of mine attempt to “Protect” Wendy from the spooky ghost that’s always chasing after behind her so they smack Abigail and well.. they join Abby in the Afterlife? That’s not me being silly, it actually has happened.. and the reason Why is because those players literally do not know any better..

Its like me when I started Semi-Maining Wickerbottom a few years back- I only used “The End is Nigh” spamming it over and over because I thought it was just so cool to have a character who could summon lightning like Zeus or Merlin, What I did not know however at that time was that I was doing harmful things to other players such as spamming them with flashes of light or Overcharging WX78 when they didn’t want to be Overcharged.

Now because I did not and had never played as WX78 I had no idea that by using my ability as Wicker even effected them.

The same mindset applies to Wickerbottom and her new rain and full moon books- If Wicker does not and has never played as Woodie or WX78 then that Wickerbottom player has no idea what “harm” they’re doing to those characters.

I don’t expect Klei to change it too much because that’s just the nature of the type of game that DST is structured upon-

a noob knows that plucking flowers from the ground grants them free Sanity, and they also quickly figure out that they can build Garlands to wear with 12 plucked flowers, A noob also gets cold in Winter and will light Trees on fire/chop wood to stay Warm: But what that noob does not know is that if someone who is playing as Wormwood is nearby when they do these destructive things to plants that it makes Wormwoods Sanity do a complete nose dive. 

(like my IRL sanity does whenever I hear Multiple Walters telling campfire stories)

There’s little I can realistically see Klei doing that can fix this- even if they lock the recipe behind some hard to get expensive craft. If that wicker player does not play as Woodie or WX78 then they do not know the effects of what their own abilities can do to those players.

There’s really only one Solution I can think of that can fix it & that would be to change Wickerbottoms spells so they’re only cast in a radius around her (and not causing server wide chaos)

OR give Woodie a new item that lets him completely ignore he even has a downside at all. (please don’t do this one Klei..)

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, NekoSoulx said:

just some light to help the noobs to not die at day 3. xD

Or kill some poor noob woodie by day 3 no?

[maxwell_winters]

29 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Yeah see the thing about that is, & I’m sure not even the developers at Klei take into consideration often is that they will have players of varying skill levels/knowledge levels playing the game-

Exactly, Imagine if Wicker joins the servers and craft the Grimoire with moon rock like she used to. Without knowing what it does, they would reset the moon cycle which would piss off the players who wanted to fight Shadow Pieces. It's not necessary to have a malicious intent to annoy people. 

Kicking the player out for this would be putting a band-aid on the broken leg. What if 2 Wickers joins the servers and one intentionally spams the full moon? How would you know which one? Do you kick out both? The innocent one wouldn't even understand why everyone is so wary of her for no reason.

 

[BezKa]

At this point I would not be against removing the book entirely.