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Issues with character specific items/structures


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 I think klei has had a big issue with character specific items and structures with a lot of the character refreshes.

Winona is mostly seen as a swap character because of her lack of a reason to continue playing her after you place her structures down, being relegated to a stepping stone to catapults

Warly's character specific items/structures become useless when the warly in question isn't in their immediate vicinity, leading to him needing to stay near them to justify their existence

Wolfgang's gym, and its lack of utility for any other character leads to it just being an eyesore to get in the way of other players putting things down

All of these are issues that can be resolved to varying degrees if klei would just approach making these items the same as they did with Willow's character specific item of Bernie.

Bernie, willow's bear, is an item that retains its utility to other players without Willow needing to be near it. Distracting nightmare creatures is a perk that is exclusive to that item, and is sometimes nice to have around. The item doesn't truly shine though, unless Willow is nearby and using it. When she gets to low sanity Bernie gets big and becomes her personal mini-boss, this combined with the characters varying perks give you reasons to continue playing Willow, even if you have all her items already. 

A similar approach can be taken with other character structures/items. Winona's catapults can increase in rate of fire, her spotlight can increase in radius and efficiency, Warly's crockpots could he used by other players for a slightly faster cooking time, but only Warly is able to spice, and cook his exclusive recipes on it, as well as he's the only one able to disassemble and reassemble them. Wolfgang's gym could be used by other players for a small damage increase that would be comparable to something like Warly's pepper flakes for a period of time. 

Expanding the scope of character specific items/structures is something that could put more emphasis on teamplay, and make you feel as though you're in it together rather than just doing everything alone with other people. 

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I get where your coming from, but the updates are considered "character refresh's". They change that characters mechanics and makes them more interesting or more in depth. The whole reason for these updates are to make the characters stand out more, make more people love them or choose that specific character from others because they have something unique that makes the gameplay fun for you. Yes this kind of style has problems, but i personally don't feel like making other characters be able to use all of character "x's" craftables/abilitys somewhat isn't the right answer for this problem.

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19 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i agree with giving more utility to character builds but im really tired of the "portal problem"

What do you mean with the "portal problem" I'm unfamiliar with it

 

19 hours ago, Empa505 said:

I get where your coming from, but the updates are considered "character refresh's". They change that characters mechanics and makes them more interesting or more in depth. 

We don't know what the term "refresh" entails since its pretty vague and klei hasn't really been transparent as to what that means.

19 hours ago, Empa505 said:

Yes this kind of style has problems, but i personally don't feel like making other characters be able to use all of character "x's" craftables/abilitys somewhat isn't the right answer for this problem.

You can make the claim that refreshes are also meant to make people, even though they don't/aren't playing them, more appreciative of them being on the servers, like what they did with Wigfrid and most notably Willow

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idk - I'm not opposed to any character being "pick an swap."  The portal is there for a reason, quit hating.

I played Winona for a bit, the reason I stopped is because her hunger penalty per craft sucks early game when you're crafting more intermittently, and the slow crafting just sucks period.  I think these are bad down sides to have early when she provides pretty much nothing in return.  The catapults also require a LOT of stone and gems, and she does nothing to aid in gathering them.  Smooth over her kit a bit and people will play her.  You don't have to "force" people to play her by messing around with catapults.

I don't even wanna get into Wolfgang anymore, I think Klei has made it clear they're not doing *anything* to help him out.  Whatever the gym is, that's it.  Get used to it.

 

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3 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

idk - I'm not opposed to any character being "pick an swap."  The portal is there for a reason, quit hating.

A big issue regardless of whether you choose to swap characters imo is things like Warly's structures where: if you're in a world and warly joins, then for whatever reason he leaves, whether that be the game, or even just the base, those structures serve no purpose at all to anybody else which is just a lazy way to go about handling them imo

5 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

The catapults also require a LOT of stone and gems, and she does nothing to aid in gathering them.  Smooth over her kit a bit and people will play her.  You don't have to "force" people to play her by messing around with catapults.

The biggest issue with Winona stuff is the cost in rocks. Late game varg farms work well for gems, and a lot of the times you're fine with using nitre generators for farms that will happen in bursts. 

 

6 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I don't even wanna get into Wolfgang anymore, I think Klei has made it clear they're not doing *anything* to help him out.  Whatever the gym is, that's it.  Get used to it.

 

I agree that it's probably gonna be the case that klei doesn't do anything with the structures, but I'm still gonna complain about it

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2 minutes ago, JustExo said:

A big issue regardless of whether you choose to swap characters imo is things like Warly's structures where: if you're in a world and warly joins, then for whatever reason he leaves, whether that be the game, or even just the base, those structures serve no purpose at all to anybody else which is just a lazy way to go about handling them imo

Warly's structures are portable - he can pack them up when he leaves.  If he doesn't, then hammer them down?  They aren't expensive.  They also don't take up much room, if he's coming back maybe make a second kitchen.

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Just now, Shosuko said:

Warly's structures are portable - he can pack them up when he leaves.  If he doesn't, then hammer them down?  They aren't expensive.  They also don't take up much room, if he's coming back maybe make a second kitchen.

The fact that they serve no purpose to anybody else is the biggest thing that irks me. It feels like such wasted potential for what could otherwise be something neat that Warly can contribute.

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1 minute ago, JustExo said:

The fact that they serve no purpose to anybody else is the biggest thing that irks me. It feels like such wasted potential for what could otherwise be something neat that Warly can contribute.

He contributes with his dishes.  Everyone has access to a crock pot.  They don't need to mess with spices - Warly's skill is being a cook, the tools aren't something other players should be able to use.

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Just now, Shosuko said:

He contributes with his dishes.  Everyone has access to a crock pot.

Yeah, so why wouldn't warly be able to provide other crockpots to other players? In the same vein that Wigfrid can provide an alternative to football helmets, why shouldn't Warly be able to do the same with his crockpots, assuming that warly's recipes were changed to be tied to him rather than the item themselves

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I dont think theres anything wrong with characters having unique stuff exclusive to them..

I dont think characters like wickerbottom, wes, wendy, max, old wanda, webber, wurt should be able to lift two giant marble statues when they can barely carry one..........

Wolfgang isnt a fitness instructor hes a circus strongman with his own weightlifting stage. 

Similarly, Warly is a trained chef with his own special cooking equipment. It seems perfectly reasonable that a chef wouldnt let just any novice cook with his special gear and many quotes  show that the other survivors dont use his equipment out of politeness/respect. 

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8 hours ago, JustExo said:

What do you mean with the "portal problem" I'm unfamiliar with

a lot of players talk about "warly needing a personal perk", "wolfgang dealing x6 damage", "celestial portal needs cooldown", "winona and warly being swap characters", etc just because some players use the portal to take advantage of character perks (a substitute of what really is playing with many characters at the same time) which will be a waste dev time to fix something that doesnt need to be fixed. Things like adding cooldown, getting stuck 1 year with the character you picked and many other  horrible celestial portal nerf suggestions only will make people who abuse it angry since their way of playing will disappear and will disturb people who use it for other goals like decorate with unique character's items. If i just wanna build a sisturm for decoration why i need to be punished? because some nerd feel sad because another nerd is using the portal to make the game easier? who cares?

 

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Reading these comments makes me glad I play on Xbox hosting my own worlds and can toggle on/off the features of the game I like/dislike.

I can completely disable the Terrarium, so I’m pretty sure an option to completely disable the Celestial upgrade isn’t out of the question.

I always felt it was “Incomplete” personally: As in its too easy to gain Access to (and no I don’t count waiting for meter to spawn as being hard.. it always spawns usually within the first year on Xbox) What I mean is that it  has 4 slots to insert construction materials but never actually uses them-

It takes LONGER to Fully upgrade Pearls freaking rat-shack on her island into a comfortable hospitable home 

Obviously there’s some balance issues off there somewhere..

Im Fine with the portal existing, but make it feel rewarding to gain access to and not so cheap.

Hopefully someone at Klei understands this- Portal swap is a really powerful feature… so why on earth does it take more resources and effort to max Pearls shack?

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12 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Hopefully someone at Klei understands this- Portal swap is a really powerful feature… so why on earth does it take more resources and effort to max Pearls shack?

so noobs can change character if they got tired of using the same one in their endless servers

it has a lot of power but is also a "settings converted into item". instead of having a menu to change character you have to build it. Is silly how easy is to access it but also would be silly to make it difficult because noobs can try more characters with them

14 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I can completely disable the Terrarium, so I’m pretty sure an option to completely disable the Celestial upgrade isn’t out of the question.

no using it is enough. You arent forced to use the portal and since you host your own servers you can apply rules on it

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7 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

...which will be a waste dev time to fix something that doesnt need to be fixed. Things like adding cooldown, getting stuck 1 year with the character you picked and many other  horrible celestial portal nerf suggestions only will make people who abuse it angry since their way of playing will disappear and will disturb people who use it for other goals like decorate with unique character's items. If i just wanna build a sisturm for decoration why i need to be punished? because some nerd feel sad because another nerd is using the portal to make the game easier? who cares?

Apparently a lot of people care, else issue wouldn't pop regularly/recurrently. It's balance, for better or worse.

Also same argument you made above can be applied to Wolfgang's nerf (Why was it needed? "because some nerd feel sad because another nerd is using ...Wolfgang... to make the game easier? who cares?") and subsequent (rightly-so) buff lobbies.

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2 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Apparently a lot of people care, else issue wouldn't pop regularly/recurrently. It's balance, for better or worse.

Also same argument you made above can be applied to Wolfgang's nerf (Why was it needed? "because some nerd feel sad because another nerd is using ...Wolfgang... to make the game easier? who cares?") and subsequent (rightly-so) buff lobbies.

while is true is also different because if you wanna play a character you are forced to play it with his stats while if you wanna play with just one character or using the portal after X day or after doing some task or whatever you wish since you arent forced to experience the portal feature

about nerfs to characters... many times i said that i see good having different characters to ajust the difficulty. I wouldnt learn a lot of stuff if wasnt becuse wigfrid, wx and wolf perks

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6 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

so noobs can change character if they got tired of using the same one in their endless servers

it has a lot of power but is also a "settings converted into item". instead of having a menu to change character you have to build it. Is silly how easy is to access it but also would be silly to make it difficult because noobs can try more characters with them

no using it is enough. You arent forced to use the portal and since you host your own servers you can apply rules on it

Controlling what other players will & will not do is very complicated on a Xbox platform, unless there are built in tools within the game that allow me to force that onto them.

Its like playing Halo with your friends and saying okay but we’re only allowed to use snipers and pistols only: Meanwhile they blast you away with a Bazooka or Mini-Gun, there is a reason there’s now a game mode called Snipers Only, there’s also a reason when your the host you can completely disable certain gun/item spawns.

Maybe on PC you have people who actually listen and care to play by the “fake rules you made up” But when I host “Lights Out” worlds on Xbox and tell everyone they can’t bust open a cave and go craft a Lantern, it’s not the same things as if I was just able to Disable Lanterns from being craftable.

You May see it as a useless thing Klei doesn’t need to do, but I also heard they hired a team of developers to work exclusively on improving the console versions of the game: And meanwhile- there’s still a bunch of frustrating/annoying controls.

Surely they can also hire a team of people exclusively on improving world Gen/world Gen settings.

Because just “Telling” people Rules: Isn’t Enough, Plus.. If I wanted to be crazy enough to make playing Wolfgang even harder, instead of telling people they can’t craft the Gym- In the same way: I could simply disable it.

Your next answer will probably be buy a PC and just mod the game the way I want it, but Why? There are a handful of console games out there that give you the player options to choose what spawns, where, what can be crafted, what can not be crafted etc.. And if DST can already do that (to a limited degree) why not go full throttle with it?

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40 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Controlling what other players will & will not do is very complicated on a Xbox platform, unless there are built in tools within the game that allow me to force that onto them.

Its like playing Halo with your friends and saying okay but we’re only allowed to use snipers and pistols only: Meanwhile they blast you away with a Bazooka or Mini-Gun, there is a reason there’s now a game mode called Snipers Only, there’s also a reason when your the host you can completely disable certain gun/item spawns.

Halo is an fps game, and different game modes are content.  The relevant settings include changing win conditions, weapons and power ups available, etc.  DST is a non-competitive sandbox adventure / survival / roguelike game.  There is no need for rules to be imposed from the top in this type of game.  If you want to play a certain way, play that way.  Find people who also want to play that way.  Even on xbox you can password your world.  Join discord servers and find people who want to play the way you do.  You're not forced to play with anyone you don't want to.

A lot of people like to point to outliers and say "look how op this thing is" but the reality is...  the time it takes to upgrade portal, farm for peppers and goat horns, swap to Warly and cook some spicy jellies so I can switch back to Wanda to deal MASSIVE DEEPS makes me slower than just playing it through as Wanda...

Its kinda like new Wolfgang - you spend so much extra time in prep that you're not actually finishing fights quicker, even if the fight takes less time.

People like to pretend things are super easy in this game.  Stuff like day 1 gym, day 2 eye statues, so Wolfgang is great!  Even though that is seriously luck dependent and puts you behind other characters who don't need that same investment.  Same thing with purple gems.  You might dig 3-4 red and blue from graves.  You might find a few bishops top side.  MIGHT.  If you have a play style that demands 4-10 purple gems you're likely to need to dip into the ruins though.  Whether its protecting goat spawns, upgrading magic, eating gembells, or swapping characters.  Sure after a year or so in game you'll build up a supply of gems just from hound waves, or set up a varg farm but imo if it takes you a year in game to get there, you deserve it XD  b/c you've either beaten everything in the game, or that extra boost might be what helps you beat everything in the game.  Go for it! gl/hf~

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Some worlds my first day I will walk one direction just to find pig king,Klaus sack, no eye deer, DF, triple walrus, swamp, graves,terrarium, chester and Klei themselves giving me their blessing.

Other worlds on the first day... There was nothing

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The thing about what I bring up is that it isn't necessarily a problem brought about by the portal. Due to the fact that people could just join servers, then not continue to join afterwards, you still run into character specific structures being useless to other characters. 

If somebody joins a world as wolfgsng for like, a couple of hours, then leaves and never returns, then his structures just become useless to everybody and are just an eye sore. Sure you can just hammer it down, but thats significantly less interesting than the alternative of having the station provide a use for other characters and serve as something fun to get out of the situation for everyone who stuck around.

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1 hour ago, JustExo said:

The thing about what I bring up is that it isn't necessarily a problem brought about by the portal. Due to the fact that people could just join servers, then not continue to join afterwards, you still run into character specific structures being useless to other characters. 

If somebody joins a world as wolfgsng for like, a couple of hours, then leaves and never returns, then his structures just become useless to everybody and are just an eye sore. Sure you can just hammer it down, but thats significantly less interesting than the alternative of having the station provide a use for other characters and serve as something fun to get out of the situation for everyone who stuck around.

Well you do get resources from hammering them down.. besides I don’t think anyone is going to be able to use a body building gym, so it makes sense to not have any interaction with it when a Wolfgang isn’t in the world, you can just Hammer it down for Free Resources or build some kind of “Theme” including the Gym as base decoration.

I say this because it would be super unrealistic to see Wendy lift the same heavy Items Wolfgang himself has to put “Effort” into lifting..

This Scenario with Wendy would be like the witch and the house from Wizard of Oz..

But: I still totally want other players to be able to climb on the Gym while Wolfgang is lifting to camp free Sanity & Hunger (hunger would come from them riding on top of whatever statue Wolfgang has placed on it like a Mechanical Horse Ride while he throws to his comrades get this now: A highly famous bag of Circus peanuts. They will Munch peanuts while being on an Amusement ride helping Wolfgang gain Might faster (and with significantly reduced Hunger cost penalty to him as well for TEAMWORK) AND the other players get to use his Gym Similar to sleeping in a “Tent” (Tents Restore Health and Sanity at the cost of Hunger.. except this only costs the player time..)
 

DST is a TEAM Based game and Klei really should do more to make it feel like these cast of characters are working Together to help each other.

And in its current iteration: That’s not a feeling a get from Reworked Wolfgang.

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I love the character swap portal.  I like the idea of planning a boss fight by switching to Warly to cook food, switching to Wigfrid to craft helmets, and switching to Wolfgang to finally fight the boss.  It adds more depth.

Maybe the devs could add some kind of obstacle like Guardian of the Character Swap. But I also think that it’s fine the way it is now, i.e. something that you have to invest a moderate amount of resources in in order to unlock.

On 1/10/2022 at 5:39 PM, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Apparently a lot of people care, else issue wouldn't pop regularly/recurrently. It's balance, for better or worse.

Balance with regards to or relative to what?

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I play this game entirely solo or with 1 friend. If you and your friends want to abuse the Celestial Portal, go for it. I don't like to. Warly and Winona are perfectly fine as solo characters. They do not need any changes. If someone wants to make Warly food, Bundle it, swap to Winona, make a catapult arena, then swap to Wolfgang or Wanda, that's on them. No reason to change their play style. This game isn't competitive by any means. If you feel obligated to abuse the Celestial Portal, that is on you. not Klei.

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2 hours ago, abrocator said:

I love the character swap portal.  I like the idea of planning a boss fight by switching to Warly to cook food, switching to Wigfrid to craft helmets, and switching to Wolfgang to finally fight the boss.  It adds more depth.

Maybe the devs could add some kind of obstacle like Guardian of the Character Swap. But I also think that it’s fine the way it is now, i.e. something that you have to invest a moderate amount of resources in in order to unlock.

Balance with regards to or relative to what?

I answered this in my long post: but I will answer it again-

It takes longer to gather the resources for and fully upgrade Pearls Hermit House, then it does to get and fully upgrade the Celestial Portal.. it even has 4 slots for crafting ingredients but only ever uses 2.

I don’t mind people being able to build and use the thing.. but at the same time: Reaching Maximum friendship with Pearl shouldn’t feel like a more difficult task then creating a celestial portal giving you the power to swap each playable character in and out so cheaply.

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11 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I answered this in my long post: but I will answer it again-

You gave your opinion.  They probably read it.  No need to repeat yourself.

Quote

I don’t mind people being able to build and use the thing.. but at the same time: Reaching Maximum friendship with Pearl shouldn’t feel like a more difficult task then creating a celestial portal giving you the power to swap each playable character in and out so cheaply.

Why not?  Pearl is part of unlocking the end END game boss chain.  She is basically the afw and shadow chess pieces combined for unlocking Crab King.  Meanwhile the upgraded portal is just that, a portal that lets you swap characters.  idk how the difficulty to complete either are related in the slightest.

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