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Might is hardly worth the time investment as Beta Wolfgang


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TL;DR

Might drains too quickly, Dumbbells are not effective enough for gaining Mighty form, and most of Wolfgang's identity as a character and viability are not immediately or conveniently available.

Wolfgang himself:

He only starts off with 50 Might. This means he has only 1 day before he becomes Wimpy, since Might decays at 25 points per day at max Hunger.

The Might breakpoints are 25 and 75. The good news is, Wimpy form is easy to get rid of. The bad news is, MIGHTY! form is very difficult to obtain without using a Gym Station.

Wimpy Wolfgang still sucks, but only takes 25% increased damage, so he's still more durable than other characters...

The speed loss hurts.

Dumbbells:

Affordable ranged weapons and can save you in a pinch if you are getting Wimpy, but they do not work well for being MIGHTY! The exception is the Gembell, which is not only more durable but significantly more effective.

Dumbbells seem to be more effective the less Mighty Wolfgang is. However, this seems to be aligned with the Mightiness breakpoints, meaning the advantage is lost as soon as you are no longer Wimpy, and is really not useful at all honestly.

To give you an idea of what Dumbbells do: they restore Might once per second, at most 2 per second. Only the Gembell gives anything close to 2/second when Mighty. The Golden Dumbbell gives 2/1/0.5 Might per use for Wimpy/Normal/MIGHTY! Wolfgang respectively. The ordinary Dumbbell sits at a ******* PITIFUL 1/0.33/0.33 and can only get you 50 Might out of it in one go if you start at 0.

That is 250 seconds of dumbbell use to go from completely Wimpy to Mighty. Not including the passive drain that still occurs when you're working out. That, or I suck at counting...

Also, as for ranged damage: it's mostly useful for killing Birds or taunting Goats/Koalephants, and only works when MIGHTY!

Gym Station:

Isn't actually that bad. Loading it up with Statues improves it significantly, seeming to improve even more if you use Marble or Moon Glass. You can gain full Might in less than half a minute. Can't use it mid-combat or anything, but it does solve Wolf's problems if you've done the prep for it.

Problem is, it's a stationary object that isn't especially cheap. Coupled with the fast drain rate of Might, you will be using this thing daily.

The Potato Sacks being completely useless is a serious disappointment. You can't even Hammer them; they're Knobbly Tree Nuts 2.0 and stop Bosses.

Summary of effects of patch:

Wolfgang has sorta lost his identity as an earlygame menace for the Constant, but kept his identity as a swap character for bosses that take less than two to three days. Most of whom are not worth spending a Moon Rock Idol on...

Because of how hard it is to maintain your MIGHTY! form, Wolfgang is, ironically, not a strong pick as a character for solo play. For group fights, he is basically unchanged, but no longer depletes food stores quickly. Outside of combat, he has very few notable traits bar some extra insulation when Mighty and compromised insulation when Wimpy.

He's definitely been shot in the foot, especially for what people tended to use him for: rushing bosses.

Ideas:

Readd Wolfgang's speed boost as an effect of being MIGHTY! He's the closest Survivor to an athlete, and it gives him a fairly unique attribute. At the very least, give Wolfgang an OPTION that allows him to regain that speed boost. Leg Day.

Make maintaining your MIGHT easier. The drain is very fast; not as fast as old Wolfgang, but it being so much harder to regain is quite a problem. This can be circumvented by making activities affect MIGHT drain, especially combat. Something like "Walking gives halved MIGHT drain, attacking in combat helps maintain MIGHT!"

Being able to customize your workout regimen to give Wolfgang alternative effects of Might would be very cool, especially if you can select it at the beginning of the game, then change it at Gym Stations, maybe using special heavy objects Wolfgang can craft, with potato sacks or Cut Stone being "neutral" items that don't change things.

Changing the way Dumbbells work would help. They are not very effective for sustaining Might. The time taken to use them is too long for them to get you out of a pinch like an incoming hound wave or to use it during general exploration. Unless you have a Gembell, it's better to just craft Gym Stations in major areas (Ruins, lunar island, boss spawns) than to use Dumbbells... at all.

Expanding the list of MIGHT!'s benefits into the utility section would be great, especially since MIGHT! is no longer effectively free. Slightly increasing Wolfgang's hammer/chop/mining power makes sense to me, even if Might becomes more accessible than it is currently.

 

Maintaining any buff requires two things: resources and time. Wolfgang previously used very few resources (food is pretty easy to get) and basically no time at all. Now, he still uses very few resources, but the time commitment to maintaining your MIGHT! is IMMENSE. So much so that Wolfgang might not actually save you much time in a fight, unless prep time is ignored.

Speedrunners running beta Wolfgang, if I had to guess, will ignore dumbbells entirely and just build a Gym Station next to whatever boss they want to fight.

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17 hours ago, Lord of Bunwich said:

but the time commitment to maintaining your MIGHT! is IMMENSE.

You have to earn it now, before you were given double damage on a silver platter for just eating (which made no sense) but now it plays into his character and motif as a strongman much better.

Here's my take:

Spoiler

You're not meant to be mighty 24/7, you're meant to choose when you want to be mighty and the dumbbells help maintain it bit by bit while you're away. Statues aren't hard to come by early game and a purple gem can be gotten early on as well with graves and whatnot; I tried out the beta as well and gold seems to be just fine in keeping might up, just not what you're supposed to use to get it in the first place. Not only that but dumbbells come with the advantage of not draining your hunger when used which is what the gym lacks and can be used to initiate a fight, take out weaker foes/birds, and help with AoE which is something he always lacked. I will give you that the cap of 100 to 75 being mighty is a tad short but I don't think it's too much of a problem, we'll just have to see how it pans out. He doesn't really need his speed back anyways as was mentioned by @Toros in a separate thread, he's more of a strongman than an athlete anyways and a speed boost is a lot more impactful than people think.

 

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I think @Lord of Bunwich will find that once they actually try the refresh their fears are unfounded.

Maintaining mighty if you return to your gym every day takes about 10 seconds for each 8 minutes of playtime, and the dumbbells are an inexpensive way to top off before a fight.

1 hour ago, Dextops said:

yeah theres no point to be mighty most of the time and when its useful to almost never utilize the characters perks you've failed

This is incorrect unless you’re deliberately choosing a character intended for aggressive frequent combat and then choosing to avoid combat.

In DST, combat provides valuable resources, so there’s no reason to both pick a combat focused character and avoid combat.

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1 minute ago, Toros said:

I think @Lord of Bunwich will find that once they actually try the refresh their fears are unfounded.

Maintaining mighty if you return to your gym every day takes about 10 seconds for each 8 minutes of playtime, and the dumbbells are an inexpensive way to top off before a fight.

This is incorrect unless you’re deliberately choosing a character intended for aggressive frequent combat and then choosing to avoid combat.

In DST, combat provides valuable resources, so there’s no reason to both pick a combat focused character and avoid combat.

nah its just that you aren't always fighting which is objectively a fact and high dps is most useful in bosses and thats what it should be used for and thats even more situational because bosses have cooldowns/ a lot of bosses have no reason to fight them more than once or twice

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1 minute ago, Dextops said:

nah its just that you aren't always fighting which is objectively a fact and high dps is most useful in bosses and thats what it should be used for and thats even more situational because bosses have cooldowns/ a lot of bosses have no reason to fight them more than once or twice

You aren’t always fighting, but when I play I am fighting something just about every in-game day for one reason or another, and with a gym getting fully mighty is quick and easy.

Especially with the new terraria bosses able to be farmed on a 15 day timer, dfly, bee queen, klaus, you’re going to probably be fighting a seasonal boss every season, terraria boss every season, hounds every few days, werepigs and spiders for meat and mmeat in between.

It’s very easy to have a major fight every couple days, and benefit from higher damage almost if not every day.

Clearing all the content is a lot of boss fights, and then you have ruins to clear regularly for more gems and thulecite.

DST has a lot of fights with a lot of good rewards, and Wolf’s damage can be leveraged very frequently to save on crafting weapons and armor since his double damage means fights are over in half the time and with taking half the damage.  Double damage means twice as many hits from your dark sword and your armor lasts twice as many fights as it would someone else.

It is absurd to not recognize the value of combat in a game where combat gives so many unique resources.

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Just now, Toros said:

You aren’t always fighting, but when I play I am fighting something just about every in-game day for one reason or another, and with a gym getting fully mighty is quick and easy.

Especially with the new terraria bosses able to be farmed on a 15 day timer, dfly, bee queen, klaus, you’re going to probably be fighting a seasonal boss every season, terraria boss every season, hounds every few days, werepigs and spiders for meat and mmeat in between.

It’s very easy to have a major fight every couple days, and benefit from higher damage almost if not every day.

Clearing all the content is a lot of boss fights, and then you have ruins to clear regularly for more gems and thulecite.

DST has a lot of fights with a lot of good rewards, and Wolf’s damage can be leveraged very frequently to save on crafting weapons and armor since his double damage means fights are over in half the time and with taking half the damage.  Double damage means twice as many hits from your dark sword and your armor lasts twice as many fights as it would someone else.

It is absurd to not recognize the value of combat in a game where combat gives so many unique resources.

most of the game is gathering materials and exploring not fighting overvaluing combat and high dps is stupid and even then little skirmishes is barely a fight and most bosses you only need to kill once why would you kill the eye of terror more than once? only boss i would really kill more than once is beequeen celestial champion if im mega basing same with toadstool most other bosses don't need to be killed again so thats where a flaw arises in your argument after not too long of a time you don't need to kill bosses again also there are better ways to kill beequeen diminishing his perks even more

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@Toros there is some truth in that my opinion is changing over time. What hasn't changed is that, mathematically, only the Gym and Gembell are worth your ******* time.

Midgame Wolfgang has a lot of luxuries and is a reasonable choice of character. Out-the-Postern wolfgang is awful and is abominable by my standards.

Most characters who have upsides can use those upsides before they even have access to a Science Machine. Wolfgang needs to either rush Science, spend a ******* disgusting amount of time on the basic Dumbbells, or hammer things down. In the meantime, he has LITERALLY ZERO upsides and is ticking down to a character that might be weaker than Wes.

I'm conflicted on the speed boost because having boosted speed AND negating movement loss from piggyback/marble suit would be a little nuts. Old Wolfgang and Beta Wolfgang are similar but are not reconcilable.

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1 hour ago, Lord of Bunwich said:

@Toros there is some truth in that my opinion is changing over time. What hasn't changed is that, mathematically, only the Gym and Gembell are worth your ******* time.

Midgame Wolfgang has a lot of luxuries and is a reasonable choice of character. Out-the-Postern wolfgang is awful and is abominable by my standards.

Most characters who have upsides can use those upsides before they even have access to a Science Machine. Wolfgang needs to either rush Science, spend a ******* disgusting amount of time on the basic Dumbbells, or hammer things down. In the meantime, he has LITERALLY ZERO upsides and is ticking down to a character that might be weaker than Wes.

I'm conflicted on the speed boost because having boosted speed AND negating movement loss from piggyback/marble suit would be a little nuts. Old Wolfgang and Beta Wolfgang are similar but are not reconcilable.

Can you elaborate on "rush science"?  Wolf's starting dumbbell is there to help you get out of wimpy form, but given how the game has evolved you can very quickly find a decent base location depending on where you like to base and get a gym down as you outline the map.

My goal is to find the terrarium, get a gym down, and kill the eye of terror quickly as it's probably the fastest boss statue (which have the maximum weight for the gym).

I agree that Wolfgang is vulnerable right out of the postern because the baseline dumbbell is weak for building mightiness, but you can also throw them to kill birds or rabbits for extra morsels, or aggro a koalafant if you want to do an early hunt.  Gold dumbbell easily earns more gold killing rabbits or birds than it costs.

Once you're established though, you can go up to 2 days away from the gym without having to use a dumbbell.  Normal form has few upsides (mostly just higher starting health than most characters), but it also has no downsides beyond faster sanity drain from shadows and the dark.

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Well the rework isn’t out for console players yet but my first goal when it IS Out is to spawn with a Dumbell already crafted (some characters don’t even get that much luxury..) Then I’ll use it to stay Average Might, I will THEN proceed to create a Gym and put those otherwise highly useless decorative statues (Hornocopria, Bubbling Pipe, Ship Anchor??) to good use by putting them on Gym for a relatively cheap almost free work out session, THEN I will get ripped enough to Murder Eye of Terror (after finding the thing that spawns him..) and hey cool wouldn’t you know.. I can summon him near my Gym I’ve already set up! After that I’ll put his trophy on the Gym to further boost my mighty gains..

Thats my game plan, BUT I’m still highly disappointed that other then carrying heavy items and wearing piggy bags with no speed penalty and the throwing of Dumbells: Wolfgang STILL doesn’t have much he can do while Mighty..

I don’t get the whole “if he could mine resources faster he would outclass insert better gather here arguement” that’s False: Even IF Klei lets Wolfgang Merm punch boulders with his bare fists to mine them- it will NEVER be as fast or as effective as Wurt with a literal army of Worker Merms, Woodie and ridiculous chopping speed + infinite durability axe.

And I’m not comparing him to Maxwells Shadows cause Max hasn’t been reworked yet.

Please Klei: Let me Merm punch boulders while Mighty, this will save tool durability on making Pickaxes: And coincidentally allow me to get the Gold Dumbell easier.

Alternatively I can just use the Dumbell to hit a few birds and rabbits, gather morsel take them to Pig King get that gold Dumbell faster..

See? I actually HAVE a game plan.. and can’t wait till this Thursday to get to try him out.

(assuming the feedback doesn’t delay the console release… I would love to be able to try him BEFORE Klei changes it)

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3 hours ago, Toros said:

Can you elaborate on "rush science"?

Just getting a Science Machine as fast as possible. All of Wolfgang's equipment requires the Refine tab, apart from his basic Dumbbell (which is genuinely awful) meaning he can't really stay Mighty before he gets his Science Machine.

On throwing the Dumbbells: you can only do that if you are Mighty. It also takes 10 uses off of the Dumbbell whether you hit anything or not. It's great once you have a source of Might established, but for the first few days, it's not an option for Wolfgang.

While all forms of Wolfgang are more durable than Wilson, the simple fact that you are Wimpy within a single day of spawning is tragic and the ordinary Dumbbell's general inability to fix the problem needs to be addressed.

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7 hours ago, Lord of Bunwich said:

Just getting a Science Machine as fast as possible. All of Wolfgang's equipment requires the Refine tab, apart from his basic Dumbbell (which is genuinely awful) meaning he can't really stay Mighty before he gets his Science Machine.

On throwing the Dumbbells: you can only do that if you are Mighty. It also takes 10 uses off of the Dumbbell whether you hit anything or not. It's great once you have a source of Might established, but for the first few days, it's not an option for Wolfgang.

While all forms of Wolfgang are more durable than Wilson, the simple fact that you are Wimpy within a single day of spawning is tragic and the ordinary Dumbbell's general inability to fix the problem needs to be addressed.

Thanks for responding!

I did some testing last night with this in mind and I had some findings to share.

As far as rushing science, I think it’s worth doing on every character except Wicker as soon as you get some gold, stone, and wood together.  I drop a science machine and make:

-backpack

-spear

-log suit

-shovel

(Wolfgang only)

-golden dumbbell

and I precraft an alchemy engine so I can drop it at wherever I decide to base, and then hammer down the science machine.

This thread breaks down how the dumbbells work:

The short version is that the starting dumbbell is about 1 mighty per rep when wimpy, and the golden dumbbell is as good as the gembell when wimpy, half as good as gembell when normal, and just as bad as the regular dumbbell when mighty.

Short version is regular is just to get out of wimpy for early hound waves.

Gold is as good as gem for wimpy, ok for normal form (only half as good as gem) but just as bad as normal for mighty.

Gem is the only one even somewhat good for maintaining mighty.

Early game I think you’re better off just accepting that you’ll be wimpy and rush a science machine to precraft alchemy engine, get the basic items you need to explore the map crafted, and then use a golden dumbbell to get to normal form for the first hound wave.

Once you find your base, drop an alchemy engine and a gym (you can make statues to load it if you want), get mighty, and then kill the eye of terror to get the boss statue to fully load your gym.

At that point you can easily sustain mighty form, toss your regular dumbbell to get either morsels or feathers, and crush everything in your path.

I don’t see any alternative to being wimpy during the first few days outlining the map though, but the nice thing is that while wimpy has a number of disadvantages, you can ignore the mighty meter and just gather resources and still have 1x hunger drain.

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