Metal salts as geyser-based renewable ore source

[Meltdown]

Currently, one of unresloved problems in DLC is the lack of renewable metal ore. Big conveyor projects heavily rely on big ore stockpiles, and some DLC-added content, namely slug plugs and research reactor (through either beetas or uranium centrifuge) are active ore consumers.
I want to explore the idea of solving this problem by extending metal resource chain with renewable precursors to metal ores.

The core suggestion is to introduce metal salts - separate class of materials that can be refined into combination of metal ore + some byproduct with new special building, Metal Salt Refinery. For example, there could be Copper Chloride Salt, which is refined into Copper Ore and Chlorine, or Aluminium Sulfate, which yields Aluminium Ore and Sulfur.

For the salt sources, I have two alternative suggestions:

1. The simple one

The simple suggestion is to just introduce new geysers/volcanoes that would emit molten salts. That way, the problem of ore renewability is resolved by the known formulas of volcano taming.

The strong sides of this suggestion:

• Simple to implement
• The playerbase already knowns how to deal with that type of things

The weak sides of this suggestion:

• This is "more of the same" type of solution. The complete chain of ore production doesn't bring anything new to the game (besides solving renewability problem of metal ores).
• Additional geysers/volcano types would compete with already existing ones, making it harder to balance geyser distribution among planetoids.

2. The complex one

The complex suggestion is to introduce salt sources as something in between the regular geyser and oil reservour. The new type of matter emitters, Salt Wells, would function as regular geysers for respective salt refinery byproduct. For example, Copper Chloride Salt Well would normally emit chlorine, functioning as Chlorine Gas Geyser. 

However, with special building, Salt Extractor, Salt Wells could be turned into hybrid of molten salt source and byproduct source. Like Oil Well, Salt Extractor is built over the Salt Well. While Salt Extractor produces corresponding type of molten salt, it fills it's internal buffer with the original product of Salt Well.
When certain, configurable percentage of backpressure is reached, it creates dupe errand to release backpressure, releasing gases and liquids (Salt Extractor probably needs liquid output pipe in order to awoid emitting two types of liquid in the same space). Unlike the Oil Well, Salt Extractor does not consume water, and cannot provide continious output. Instead, it is active only when the Salt Well is active, respecting its "geyser part". The Extractor is also builds backpressure and has to be emptied even if it is unpowered or disabled.
If backpressure reaches 100%, in addition to stopping molten salt production, Salt Extractor would suffer damage during Salt Well activity period.

The strong sides of this suggestion:

• Reduced factor of "more of the same"
• Salt sources are flexible and accessible early on. They can be used without Salt Extractors
• Salt sources are less competitive with existing geysers, since they can replace them

The weak sides of this suggestion:

• It is harder to implement

Another, probably controversal point about this suggestion is that it creates the need to keep dupes near the wells. On one hand it creates real insentive to house dupes on different planetoids. On the other hand, it denies players ability to fully automate ore production.

[sakura_sk]

If I'm understanding correctly, you suggest new materials as metal+gas mixture which would maintain their mix in all stages (solid, liquid, gas) but can be refined as solid (for "the simple one") and separate their respective mixed materials through a refinery building.

I think if the metal-salt geysers spawned in a different planetoid in the outer-outer ring (>6 tiles away), it would solve any conflict with existing geysers. It would be an interesting late game ore source although it would still be "more of the same" (not a negative for me though).

[Meltdown]

21 hours ago, sakura_sk said:

If I'm understanding correctly, you suggest new materials as metal+gas mixture which would maintain their mix in all stages (solid, liquid, gas) but can be refined as solid (for "the simple one") and separate their respective mixed materials through a refinery building.

Not necessarily metal+gas (I used aluminium + sulfur as an example), but overall yes, this is correct.

22 hours ago, sakura_sk said:

I think if the metal-salt geysers spawned in a different planetoid in the outer-outer ring (>6 tiles away), it would solve any conflict with existing geysers. It would be an interesting late game ore source

My only concern is that with this solution is that it would add renewable ores as another lategame feature. I'd love if that feature would appear earlier in the game and would be accessible for wider range of players. Besides, this solution kind of counters the point about slug plugs I was making in original post - establishing slug plug ranch is hardly necessary at the stage when you can afford Radbolt/Hydrogen engine trips to outer ring planetoids.

But, if we exlude those points, it is a working solution, I guess. 

[TuxSam123]

On 5/16/2021 at 7:06 AM, Meltdown said:

1. The simple one

The simple suggestion is to just introduce new geysers/volcanoes that would emit molten salts. That way, the problem of ore renewability is resolved by the known formulas of volcano taming.

2. The complex one

The complex suggestion is to introduce salt sources as something in between the regular geyser and oil reservour. The new type of matter emitters, Salt Wells, would function as regular geysers for respective salt refinery byproduct. For example, Copper Chloride Salt Well would normally emit chlorine, functioning as Chlorine Gas Geyser. 

However, with special building, Salt Extractor, Salt Wells could be turned into hybrid of molten salt source and byproduct source. Like Oil Well, Salt Extractor is built over the Salt Well. While Salt Extractor produces corresponding type of molten salt, it fills it's internal buffer with the original product of Salt Well.
When certain, configurable percentage of backpressure is reached, it creates dupe errand to release backpressure, releasing gases and liquids (Salt Extractor probably needs liquid output pipe in order to awoid emitting two types of liquid in the same space). Unlike the Oil Well, Salt Extractor does not consume water, and cannot provide continious output. Instead, it is active only when the Salt Well is active, respecting its "geyser part". The Extractor is also builds backpressure and has to be emptied even if it is unpowered or disabled.
If backpressure reaches 100%, in addition to stopping molten salt production, Salt Extractor would suffer damage during Salt Well activity period.

I don't know, all of these seem more like "more of the same solution" to me. Your salt wells seem like oil wells with a texture revamp and one or more new things. The lack of renewability for metal ores is a problem, yes, but I don't think this is the solution to it.

[Meltdown]

37 minutes ago, TuxSam123 said:

but I don't think this is the solution to it

Is "more of the same" is the sole reason or there are some other points against this solution?

Geysers as means to get renewable resources is one of the common things in ONI, so I tried to explore the idea of getting ore in the simmilar manner (with extra steps, given the fact that ore metls into pure metal).

[KonfigSys]

there is already in game mechanics - meteors. Klei may just turn it on and that is it. Just add uranium ore also to it. Actually not uranium but plutonium/radium which then can be converted into uranium. Uranium ore melting temperature is too low (+26C?)

[Meltdown]

41 minutes ago, KonfigSys said:

there is already in game mechanics - meteors. Klei may just turn it on and that is it.

Well, vanilla interstellar research also was in game mechanics - but it got reworked in DLC. So Klei may bring meteors back, or may go any other way. Besides, just bringing back meteors makes rocketry less accessible, and rocketry accessibility is one of the main points of DLC. I think that if bringing back meteors would eventually happen, it would be more for the sake of a challenge, rather than as ore problem solution.

41 minutes ago, KonfigSys said:

Uranium ore melting temperature is too low (+26C?)

It is 132.9С, actually. Still to low for a meteor.

[KonfigSys]

2 minutes ago, Meltdown said:

Well, vanilla interstellar research also was in game mechanics - but it got reworked in DLC. So Klei may bring meteors back, or may go any other way. Besides, just bringing back meteors makes rocketry less accessible, and rocketry accessibility is one of the main points of DLC.

It is 132.9С, actually. Still to low for a meteor.

they do not need to bring meteors to every asteroid but only one - I think niobium one is a good candidate for that. It has already high temp and related challenge. Someone mentioned that he saw meteors in DLC codes. It is a matter just to turn it on.

Yeah, ONI Ur will melt at meteor temp of about 300C. Ur renewable is desired to make nuclear power sustainable. May be your idea with Ur salt can be implemented - salt may have higher melting temp in ONI.

Melting point for Ur is 1135°C but not in ONI

It can be Uranium Dioxide with melting temperature of 2,865 °C and we have already building in the game (rust deoxidizer) to make Ur ore and Oxygen.

[DaClown]

On 5/20/2021 at 8:56 AM, KonfigSys said:

they do not need to bring meteors to every asteroid but only one - I think niobium one is a good candidate for that. It has already high temp and related challenge. Someone mentioned that he saw meteors in DLC codes.

 

On 5/16/2021 at 3:06 AM, Meltdown said:

1. The simple one

The simple suggestion is to just introduce new geysers/volcanoes that would emit molten salts. That way, the problem of ore renewability is resolved by the known formulas of volcano taming.

The strong sides of this suggestion:

• Simple to implement
• The playerbase already knowns how to deal with that type of things

The weak sides of this suggestion:

• This is "more of the same" type of solution. The complete chain of ore production doesn't bring anything new to the game (besides solving renewability problem of metal ores).
• Additional geysers/volcano types would compete with already existing ones, making it harder to balance geyser distribution among planetoids.

 

On 5/17/2021 at 7:31 AM, Meltdown said:

My only concern is that with this solution is that it would add renewable ores as another lategame feature. I'd love if that feature would appear earlier in the game and would be accessible for wider range of players. Besides, this solution kind of counters the point about slug plugs I was making in original post - establishing slug plug ranch is hardly necessary at the stage when you can afford Radbolt/Hydrogen engine trips to outer ring planetoids.

I am in favor of all these solutions. No reason that they have to be mutually exclusive.

I like the complex solution as something in addition to the simple one; I'd like it if the salt emitters gave some trickle when unresearched and undeveloped, but there exists a structure we can build on top of the salt emitters to extract significantly more resources in the later game.

I've always been in favor of meteor storms and other space-based hazards, but I was disappointed that literally every asteroid had meteor storms and the basic justification was just to nerf solar power so early game players couldn't rush it and rely on it for the rest of the game.

I would love if some asteroids have meteors that are a renewable source of ores straight up, some asteroids have some of the salt geysers, and rare asteroids have both.

I also like

On 5/20/2021 at 8:56 AM, KonfigSys said:

It can be Uranium Dioxide with melting temperature of 2,865 °C and we have already building in the game (rust deoxidizer) to make Ur ore and Oxygen.

Adding recipes to existing structures and integrating the salt refinement with the already extensive production chains would be preferable to me, and I think would be good design generally for most players especially new players.

For the complex solution

On 5/16/2021 at 3:06 AM, Meltdown said:

2. The complex one

The complex suggestion is to introduce salt sources as something in between the regular geyser and oil reservoir. The new type of matter emitters, Salt Wells, would function as regular geysers for respective salt refinery byproduct. For example, Copper Chloride Salt Well would normally emit chlorine, functioning as Chlorine Gas Geyser. 

However, with special building, Salt Extractor, Salt Wells could be turned into hybrid of molten salt source and byproduct source. Like Oil Well, Salt Extractor is built over the Salt Well. While Salt Extractor produces corresponding type of molten salt, it fills it's internal buffer with the original product of Salt Well.
When certain, configurable percentage of backpressure is reached, it creates dupe errand to release backpressure, releasing gases and liquids (Salt Extractor probably needs liquid output pipe in order to avoid emitting two types of liquid in the same space). Unlike the Oil Well, Salt Extractor does not consume water, and cannot provide continuous output. Instead, it is active only when the Salt Well is active, respecting its "geyser part". The Extractor is also builds backpressure and has to be emptied even if it is unpowered or disabled.
If backpressure reaches 100%, in addition to stopping molten salt production, Salt Extractor would suffer damage during Salt Well activity period.

The strong sides of this suggestion:

• Reduced factor of "more of the same"
• Salt sources are flexible and accessible early on. They can be used without Salt Extractors
• Salt sources are less competitive with existing geysers, since they can replace them

The weak sides of this suggestion:

• It is harder to implement

Another, probably controversial point about this suggestion is that it creates the need to keep dupes near the wells. On one hand it creates real incentive to house dupes on different planetoids. On the other hand, it denies players ability to fully automate ore production.

I am generally not in favor of solutions which make mid to late players have to increase dupe number without bound or at all generally to implement the solution.

One of my big criticisms both in playing the game myself to later eras and in watching the extreme players like Brothgar push the limits is that automating dupes out of the loop should be the late game objective. I would like to see that restriction of existing dupe-required-labor-devices lifted by late game technologies. For performance and computational demand reasons regardless of other considerations. No one can or should be running 10K dupes on dozens of asteroids to extract and process raw ores.

Star Trek and Star Wars fail in this regard because they ignore and deny automation of extraction and raw material processing.

I would be in favor of different kinds of salt extractors taking different kinds of solvents allowing basically an effective conversion of the solvent into the salt. Rust is a basic example and model that already exists in the game of what you are proposing; a rust well I think would benefit from using salt water or brine as the extraction fluid. I think some of the salts would need gases or even solids via conveyor rails to extract instead.

[babba]

Having a "Complex" (renewable?) resource, a resource which needs to be split in to its individual components ( either via refinement buildings or some other way of split processing like heating/cooling/mixing/compressing/vacuuming etc. ), sounds like an interesting idea.

Some new rare resource could perhaps be gathered as the complex resource splitting/extraction is performed by the player - So next to simple by-products ( like water, sulfur etc. ) the player could extract and gain access to very rare materials during the refinement process of complex resources.

[Meltdown]

On 5/22/2021 at 11:04 PM, DaClown said:

I am generally not in favor of solutions which make mid to late players have to increase dupe number without bound or at all generally to implement the solution.

Well, I know, this component of my suggestion is very controversial. While I love automating things, I feel like being able to have unmanned planetoids allows to cut out significant portion of problems with providing life support to remote outposts. But, perhaps, it wasn't wise to try to include this discussion in renewable ore topic.

Anyway, I think that supplying different materials in order to extract molten salts is a cool idea.

[TuxSam123]

46 minutes ago, Meltdown said:

Well, I know, this component of my suggestion is very controversial. While I love automating things, I feel like being able to have unmanned planetoids allows to cut out significant portion of problems with providing life support to remote outposts. But, perhaps, it wasn't wise to try to include this discussion in renewable ore topic.

Anyway, I think that supplying different materials in order to extract molten salts is a cool idea.

While this idea is, somewhat, the solution to the ore problem, I'd prefer to have other solutions to that as well. I really like the example of the crude oil. You can farm slicksters or oil wells. From your idea, the simple solution will do. I don't like the oil well 2.0

[KonfigSys]

I believe with the recent update this topic becomes outdated 

Now, hurray, we have renewable source of all ores including Uranium

[TuxSam123]

13 hours ago, KonfigSys said:

I believe with the recent update this topic becomes outdated 

Now, hurray, we have renewable source of all ores including Uranium

Yes! Klei has listened to our requests and we have a better solution!