Dasha Math Mystery (or am I dumb?)

[MooChiChi]

Hello friends,

since spaced out DLC introduced feeding seeds to pacus, I've finally found a use for chlorine geysers: chlorine fertilizes dashas, dashas dorp seeds, seeds feeding pacus. Very nice, cause you basically convert chlorine into pacu-filet, egg-shells, table salt and sand (dashas are also sand-positive). However, I ended up once again in a math-mystery.

Although I am sure that I've calculated everything correctly (prove me wrong), there is always a bottleneck while the geyser is dormant.

Like you can see, I fertilize 12 dasha saltvines with my chlorine geyser - exclusively. Since one dasha consumes 6g/s chlorine, the math is actually pretty simple, I think:

(6x600) x 12 = 43200 g/cycle

To ensure continuous fertilization of my 12 dashas, I have to provide a stockpile of 43,2 kg chlorine per cycle, while the geyser is dormant.

In my case that means:

35,6 (cycles dormancy) x 43,2 (kg) = 1537,92 kg (stockpile) or 10,25 gas reservoirs

I built 12 gas reservoirs, accordingly to my OCD, and here is where the mystery begins: why all reservoirs are empty, after roughly 15 cycles dormancy? As already mentioned, geyser and reservoir serve only the dashas. Is something wrong with my calculation? Am I overlooking something?

 

EDIT:

Attempts to recreate this effect in sandbox were unsuccessful. The results were always correct, as expected. So I compared the values in sandbox and survival with a timer (in real time).

In each case, 7200 g of chlorine gas atmosphere were made available (this corresponds to the consumption of 12 Dashas in 100 seconds). See yourself:

Sandbox

Survival

That's a surprise, isn't it? Consumption has doubled. I'm pretty sure that this kind effect also has an impact on other aspects of the game (e.g. liquids, see Odd Geyser Math Issue). However, I reported it as a bug.

 

Thanks for your attention!

Kind regards

[Yunru]

**** in the dark, since I'm too tired for maths; are they filling up enough during the periods of non-dormancy? 

 

Things that could be stopping that from being the case:

Overpressure on the part of the vent. 

The consumption of the plants. 

[sakura_sk]

Isn't balm lily the best way if you want to feed seeds to pacu? (no fertilization needed)

[ChrisPBacon000]

Just curious, what's the gas pressure in the room?  Could the reservoirs be emptying as the vents release chlorine to pressurize the room to 2000 g per tile?

[MooChiChi]

1 hour ago, Yunru said:

**** in the dark, since I'm too tired for maths; are they filling up enough during the periods of non-dormancy? 

 

Things that could be stopping that from being the case:

Overpressure on the part of the vent. 

The consumption of the plants. 

While active, the geyser ensures primary (permanent) 2 kg pressure in the dasha chamber and overflow fills the gas reservoirs.

The consumption of the 12 dashas equals 43,2 kg/cycle, while the active geyser produce 104,5 kg/cycle.

1 hour ago, sakura_sk said:

Isn't balm lily the best way if you want to feed seeds to pacu? (no fertilization needed)

Yes. But in this scenario dashas are the right choice for my purposes. The fertilization is also not a problem, since I have no other use for the geyser anyway.

22 minutes ago, ChrisPBacon000 said:

Just curious, what's the gas pressure in the room?  Could the reservoirs be emptying as the vents release chlorine to pressurize the room to 2000 g per tile?

Pressure is 2000g. The reservoirs begin to empty first, when the geyser becomes dormant. While active, it produces more than twice as much chlorine per cycle as needed. There also is back up storage in the pipes, as well in the (huge) geyser chamber.

[sakura_sk]

3 minutes ago, MooChiChi said:

Pressure is 2000g. The reservoirs begin to empty first, when the geyser becomes dormant.

You mean you had 12 reservoirs full that emptied in 15 cycles? Smells like gas vent gas-deletion... If that's the case (I have no idea really...) you could try automating the gas vents to open below 1500g pressure or something to be sure.

[MooChiChi]

16 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

You mean you had 12 reservoirs full that emptied in 15 cycles?

Yes.

16 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

Smells like gas vent gas-deletion... If that's the case (I have no idea really...) you could try automating the gas vents to open below 1500g pressure or something to be sure.

Gas vent gas-deletion? Is this a thing? This is a good hint!

[sakura_sk]

26 minutes ago, MooChiChi said:

Is this a thing?

I don't know XD (Probably not..?)

I've seen so many weird stuff happening randomly (e.g. CSV generating whatever gas surrounds when producing steam) that it seems it can happen (maybe not?) Or is it "just" liquid forcing gas deletion? Although oxylite off-gassing deletes blobs of CO2 that pass the bin you stored it...

I just wouldn't trust a gas vent to control quantity of gas in max gas pressure... Maybe I'm prejudging..

[MooChiChi]

3 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

I don't know XD (Probably not..?)

I've seen so many weird stuff happening randomly (e.g. CSV generating whatever gas surrounds when producing steam) that it seems it can happen (maybe not?) Or is it "just" liquid forcing gas deletion? Although oxylite off-gassing deletes blobs of CO2 that pass the bin you stored it...

I just wouldn't trust a gas vent to control quantity of gas in max gas pressure... Maybe I'm prejudging..

Well, I can totally confirm random weird stuff in ONI. I even found a suitable contribution to it. But the circumstances are different. In my case there is only one gas.

 

[KittenIsAGeek]

I'm pretty sure that vents when close to max pressure delete gas -- though I haven't proven it as well as the post above.  I generally automate vents so that they only open below about 1800g -- mostly because I hate seeing that big red X on my screen.

An alternative solution is to use a water-lock to allow chlorine into the room, regardless of the pressure.  You can recoup the metals from your gas reservoirs that way, and you shouldn't ever have a problem with your vines lacking atmosphere.  

[MooChiChi]

2 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I'm pretty sure that vents when close to max pressure delete gas -- though I haven't proven it as well as the post above.  I generally automate vents so that they only open below about 1800g -- mostly because I hate seeing that big red X on my screen.

An alternative solution is to use a water-lock to allow chlorine into the room, regardless of the pressure.  You can recoup the metals from your gas reservoirs that way, and you shouldn't ever have a problem with your vines lacking atmosphere.  

I'll test whether the atmo sensor can prevent my issue. Besides, I don't like the X either.

[ghkbrew]

19 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

An alternative solution is to use a water-lock to allow chlorine into the room, regardless of the pressure.  You can recoup the metals from your gas reservoirs that way, and you shouldn't ever have a problem with your vines lacking atmosphere.  

But you will stifle the plants if the pressure goes above 10kg.

[sakura_sk]

18 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

you shouldn't ever have a problem with your vines lacking atmosphere.

25g - 10.000g pressure. Above that I would expect it will stifle the plant

[KittenIsAGeek]

I forgot about max pressure for the salt vines.

OK, so you'll need a atmosensor to close the vent at 9kg/tile.  That should give about 10 cycles of chlorine in the room.  With 25.6 more cycles to go, that's 1106kg of chlorine you'll need to store in gas reservoirs.  That'll reduce your need for reservoirs to 8.

[MooChiChi]

1 minute ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I forgot about max pressure for the salt vines.

OK, so you'll need a atmosensor to close the vent at 9kg/tile.  That should give about 10 cycles of chlorine in the room.  With 25.6 more cycles to go, that's 1106kg of chlorine you'll need to store in gas reservoirs.  That'll reduce your need for reservoirs to 8.

My issue isn't how or where I should store the chlorine. Rather why the stored chlorine (1800 kg) after roughly 15 cycle it's gone. Accordingly to the math this should be ultra-impossible. There is some kind of serious gas-deletion going on.

I am currently use an atmo sensor and watch whether something changes.

[JRup]

TL;DR: Also check geyser production isn't being somehow hindered.

Not so TLDR:

I've got a very productive chlorine geyser that used to get stifled on overpressure.... I did some gas layering to "cheese" what I call the geyser's own "pressure sensor".

Several hundreds of cycles have passed and the geyser has not "deleted" the gases used to "convince" it to keep working.

I did a build with the fan tiles mod but I'll eventually move away from that one into some other form of storage, maybe just a vanilla "infinite storage" or some goofy over-engineered build that may come from some blueprint I'd imagined...

So here's the stuff, nothing fancy. I'm guessing you're not into solutions that touch upon "infinite" storage.... I myself shy away from those too, but I'm sometimes lazy...

 

 

 

[sakura_sk]

1 hour ago, MooChiChi said:

Rather why the stored chlorine (1800 kg) after roughly 15 cycle it's gone.

"gas vent gas-deletion" I take it back! Something else may have happened there but definitely not that...

After some testing (20 cycles dasha eating chlorine) there is nothing to suggest that any gas was deleted while letting gas vent(building) regulating gas pressure or you put an automation to control it. Sorry for pointing you to the wrong direction MooChiChi... 

[ghkbrew]

3 hours ago, JRup said:

I did some gas layering to "cheese" what I call the geyser's own "pressure sensor".

Ok, we're pretty far of topic here, but how does this work exactly. A while back I spent some time trying to "overpressure" a geyser like you can with vents and machines. I ultimately failed because the rules for geysers seem to be different. Interestingly if you try to use the usual strategy of covering the production tile with a low mass liquid, the geyser won't every tell you it's over pressure but it will stop producing.

[JRup]

1 minute ago, ghkbrew said:

Ok, we're pretty far of topic here, but how does this work exactly.

I stumbled upon this one by accident when opening up a NatGas vent... A little gift of my slo-mo play style, I guess.  I thought everybody knew about it so I didn't mention it, yet here we are.

So here's the long and short of it:

As we all know vents/geysers/volcanoes all have a "special tile" that allows it to work once we dig it out. I just make sure to add different gases than what the vent spews to cover most of the geyser itself and this will usually do the trick. In the picture above you can see there is a layer of hydrogen, oxygen and a bit of natural gas... This is because when the pressure rose enough the gases would be compressed into single tiles and the vent would stifle. (It does take a lot, though)

I guess the geyser seems to actually check for liquids so it will stifle.

I eventually repeated the "natural occurrence" from the natural gas geyser into the chlorine vent I pictured above. The atmo sensor only makes sure there is enough pressure to keep the layer of chlorine  manageable and doesn't over compress the layer of "cheese initiators"

I suppose this could also be of use for very productive steam vents (I'd have to test inverting the gas collection and using CO2 and chlorine as "cheesers", lol)

[ghkbrew]

 

29 minutes ago, JRup said:

This is because when the pressure rose enough the gases would be compressed into single tiles and the vent would stifle. (It does take a lot, though)

So, this isn't actually a form of infinite storage for the geyser.  You have to keep the amount of the produced gas low enough that it won't compress the others.  I guess I'd describe it as a way of quickly moving the produced gas away (because simple diffusion is not enough for a lot of high output geysers).

32 minutes ago, JRup said:

I guess the geyser seems to actually check for liquids so it will stifle.

No, it's not just liquids, the same thing will happen with a single tile of CO2.  The entire geyser emitting algorithm seems to be something like this:

1. Check the  "tile of interest" (1 over and 2 up from leftmost neutronium).  If this mass is more than 5kg, or any solid. Report "overpressure" and quit.

2. Check the TOI and the 4 adjacent tiles.  If all non-solid tiles more than 5kg of mass in them, report "overpressure" and quit.

3. If any of the TOI and adjacent tiles have the emitted element in them, select a random one with less than 5kg of mass and add the appropriate amount of mass to it.  If all tiles of the emitted element are above 5kg of pressure quit (but don't report over pressure)

4. (Since there are no tiles of the emitted element) select a gas tile (not liquid) with less than 5kg  of mass in the TOI or 4 adjacent tiles and merge the gas tile into a tile adjacent to it with the same element. Emit the appropriate amount into the emptied tile. If no gas tile with 5kg or less can be merged quit.

Given these rules I don't see a way to make a geyser emit infinitely without some sort of active pumping to remove the output. I brought it up, because I thought you might have been tricked by the behavior when the algorithm fails in 3. or 4.  The geyser will continue to say "emitting X g/s" and the animation will continue, but it won't actually produce anything.

[JRup]

2 minutes ago, ghkbrew said:

4.  The geyser will continue to say "emitting X g/s" and the animation will continue, but it won't actually produce anything.

Except for the teensy tiny detail that removal can be done at one's own pace given that this setup does accept pressures in excess of 5kg. The only requirement is to keep a layer of a different element to the geyser's output which is the cheesy element of this whole setup. And yes, not only did it give feedback as in "emitting X g/s" but did overfill well beyond 5kg/tile.

I'm currently setting up something on a 6kg/s steam vent but debug was kind enough to spawn it in a somewhat prolonged dormancy.

At this point I think it may be better to post a separate thread for this oddity. (I'm really sorry if I'd hijacked OP's thread with this one.)

 

[MooChiChi]

10 hours ago, JRup said:

So here's the stuff, nothing fancy. I'm guessing you're not into solutions that touch upon "infinite" storage.... I myself shy away from those too, but I'm sometimes lazy...

Thanks for your suggestion, but you are right: I avoid infinite storages. In addition, I'm much too curious to find out what is causing my problem.

10 hours ago, sakura_sk said:

"gas vent gas-deletion" I take it back! Something else may have happened there but definitely not that...

After some testing (20 cycles dasha eating chlorine) there is nothing to suggest that any gas was deleted while letting gas vent(building) regulating gas pressure or you put an automation to control it. Sorry for pointing you to the wrong direction MooChiChi... 

No reason to worry. You inspired me to look at the problem from a different perspective

For today I planned some sandbox experiments. Maybe that will bring new insights.

[JRup]

6 hours ago, MooChiChi said:

For today I planned some sandbox experiments. Maybe that will bring new insights.

This may be noteworthy: In vanilla both domestic and wild dashas consume Cl 6g/s. I haven't tested in DLC, but this should also be the case.

 

[MooChiChi]

On 1/24/2021 at 4:21 PM, JRup said:

This may be noteworthy: In vanilla both domestic and wild dashas consume Cl 6g/s. I haven't tested in DLC, but this should also be the case.

I can confirm that the consumption of dasha saltvines in the DLC is 6g/s.

EDIT: Well, depends on whether it's survival or sandbox.