Metal Hatches

[Yunru]

I've brought it up before, but now with ever more things requiring metal ore, I feel the need to suggest it again:

A hatch morph that consumes refined metals and produces their respective ores. 

This enables renewable sources of an otherwise unrenewable resources, provides an rather unique metal -> meat process, and plus it can look cute (imagine a chibi Aron). 

[JaxckLl]

That's a terrible idea. Refined Metal is the goal of the early game, and the limiting factor for almost all late game builds. Having something which consumes Metal Ore is a bad design, having something that consumes Refined Metal is a recipe for frustration.

If we need another hatch, it would be a morph of Stone Hatches which makes Abyssalite & Diamond renewable somehow.

[Yunru]

45 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

That's a terrible idea. Refined Metal is the goal of the early game, and the limiting factor for almost all late game builds. Having something which consumes Metal Ore is a bad design, having something that consumes Refined Metal is a recipe for frustration.

If we need another hatch, it would be a morph of Stone Hatches which makes Abyssalite & Diamond renewable somehow.

Nothing you said addresses any of the points I made, and in fact makes several misleading claims.

Here's the facts of the matter:

• Certain creatures, processes, and constructions require metal ore.
• Metal ore is non-renewable.
• Refined metal is unlimited.

Combine all three and your argument that somehow converting a limitless resource into a limited one is a bad thing is just smoke on the wind.

 

[JaxckLl]

The general pattern of Spaced Out goes something like this:

1. Explore starting biome. Utilize non-renewable resources to provide Oxygen (such as Algae or PDirt) & build a basic power grid to enable research. Provide for basic needs of dupes with Cots, Outhouses, and by foraging. Limiting factor right now is lack of dupe skills.
2. Get Mining 1 to unlock surrounding biomes. Early optimization resources now available, such as Granite for decor & alternative metals. Build a self-sustainable Bathroom loop and set up Water management. Start farming. Start grilling. Limiting factor right now is lack of infrastructure & non-dupe power. Additionally Metal Ore can be a limiting factor depending on the map.
3. Get Ranching 1 to unlock critter handling. Typically start ranching with Hatches or Divergents. Upgrade food resources. Optionally set up a hospital & start dealing with germs. Transition to second asteroid and start developing a second base. Start cleaning up first asteroid with permanent storage. Upgrade morale baseline with a Great Hall. Limiting factor here is research and the small number of available dupes per asteroid.
4. Get access to enough Coal & Glass to provide the grid with a steady baseline of power. Break into Space to build Solar Panels & Telescopes. Start dealing with CO2 in prep for rockets and to prevent suffocation of lower levels while running Coal. Start refining Metal with a Crusher or Smooth Hatches, enough to upgrade the grid so a Metal Refinery can be built. Transition to a more permanent Oxygen solution, either directly to a SPOM or Rust Deoxidization. Tame first renewable sources of Water & upgrade plumbing system. Limiting factor at this stage is still dupe time, in particular the distances that need to be traveled inbetween the reliable power sources and your metal store. Additional limiting factor may be availability of farm/Oxygen resources such as Fertilizer & Algae.
5. Research automation and continue refining metal. Build a SPOM. Build first rocket. Ideally start producing ExoSuits & Plastic, if Dreckos are available. Upgrade automation systems across the base. Upgrade décor across the base. Upgrade food production to support sizeable populations on both starting asteroids. Start building bedrooms & advanced ranches such as for Pufts. Continue to expand Plumbing, Venting, and Power networks to handle additional & more varied loads. Limiting factor at this point is Refined Metal, pretty much exclusively.
6. Start Petrol Boiling & sustainable mineral production via Magma. Build an industrial brick and transition to Steam (read, Heat) & Petrol as primary power sources. Stop ranching Hatches, switching to Pokeshells or Pacus for sustainable meat & eggs. Potentially launch a rocket to the third asteroid to gather Arbor Trees & Pips (which in turn serves as a more efficient source of Dirt than Morb/Puft ranching). Fully develop automation & conveyors across the base. Limiting factor at this point remains Refined Metal, with pretty much every other resource fully accounted for.

Right now Spaced Out is divided into the pre-Automation phase where dupe time is the limiting factor, and the post-Refining phase where Refined Metal is the limiting factor. Adding in something which consumes a late game resource to produce an early game resource in a non-player directed fashion (aka the player doesn't get specific control over the amount converted) gives the player the opportunity to push themselves back. Much like how Plug Slugs & Oxygen Masks currently function, a Refined Metal-consuming Hatch creates an opportunity for the player to take themselves back to the beginning of the game. It's a noob trap of the worst kind.

Such a system is not a good idea. The player should be given incentives & prodding to progress forward, not opportunities to set backwards.

All that being said, I don't disagree with your premise that having some system which allows the player to convert Refined Metal into Metal Ore is a bad idea. However there is no situation where such a system should be a critter. Such a conversion needs to be player directed. Perhaps it could be a Rust Generator which converts refined metal into its unrefined form to produce power, a useful system for a rocket interior. Perhaps such a machine could be an efficient way to produce PWater from clean, a late game alternative to Terrariums once Algae is in short supply.

[Yunru]

57 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

Adding in something which consumes a late game resource to produce an early game resource in a non-player directed fashion (aka the player doesn't get specific control over the amount converted) [...]

All that being said, I don't disagree with your premise that having some system which allows the player to convert Refined Metal into Metal Ore is a bad idea. However there is no situation where such a system should be a critter. Such a conversion needs to be player directed.

You realise you can control how much you feed any given critter, right?

[JaxckLl]

Just now, Yunru said:

You realise you can control how much you feed any given critter, right?

Not without automation or micromanagement you can't.

[Yunru]

Sure, but half the fun (well, more like almost all for me) of the game is figuring out and setting up said automation.

Off the top of my head, it's as simple as an automatic dispenser hooked into a clock sensor. Whatever you set the storage capacity to is how much they get fed daily.

[he77789]

On 1/10/2021 at 3:35 AM, JaxckLl said:

Abyssalite & Diamond renewable

Uh, they are both renewable right now? Abyssalite can be obtained as an rare resource, and it's guaranteed that you have at least 1 carbon asteroid at 10000 km.

[MachineryMan]

On 1/9/2021 at 10:35 PM, JaxckLl said:

Abyssalite

I apologise for my ignorance, but for what the hell do we need so much Abyssalite for now? I mean, apart from the mega-insulator.

On 1/10/2021 at 12:02 AM, JaxckLl said:

Such a system is not a good idea. The player should be given incentives & prodding to progress forward, not opportunities to set backwards.

Maaan, how did you ever get along with the lava volcanoes in this game... I bet you were the kind of person who turned off meteor showers in vanilla. That's where automation or micromanagement is needed, which means toxic and incomprehensible mechanics. Very complicated. Pure noob trap. I never thought about how right you are! Look, the noob drills into space and does not notice how ALL THE AIR IS GONE!!!!! Have to start the colony all over again...... 

On 1/9/2021 at 8:55 PM, Yunru said:

A hatch morph that consumes refined metals and produces their respective ores.

We can, in fact, redesign Smooth hatches for this purpose. Anyway, It's absolutely horribly balanced. All in all, the idea is a good one.

[sakura_sk]

1 hour ago, MachineryMan said:

We can, in fact, redesign Smooth hatches for this purpose.

But... I like my passive, 75% efficient refining ranch 

[MachineryMan]

1 hour ago, sakura_sk said:

But... I like my passive, 75% efficient refining ranch 

Well, now you're going to like your passive, 75% efficient derefining ranch 

[Sasza22]

It`s pretty weird. Early game you want more refined metal for advanced structures. Late game you got all the refined metal you need and just want ores for basic structures. It`s really awkward.

Hatches are earlygame critters easy to tame and by the midgame you might have some smooth ones for metal refinement. I think if there was a critter working the opposite way it should be a more lategame critter avaliable outside the main asteroid that does that in one of it`s morphs.