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My ideas after 100 cycles


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I'm not going to address the good things - they are a lot, and they are welcome additions to the game.

I'm focusing on the things I didn't like or I'm not sure about.

 

Overall, I feel I have less options at the start.

In the old ONI, we could discuss a lot about the first 200 cycles... do I stay on mealwood? Push a transition to BBQ? Or do I start with berries? Do I rush atmosuits or not? Do I rush industry (steel, oil refinement, plastic) or not? Do I go the critter way for plastic? Do I rush space or do I build a 1000 cycles super sustainable base even before breaking into the space biome?

In Spaced Out, I'm not sure we have all the same options. Some stuff has been successfully replaced. Food from plants/critters offers a lot to explore. Very interesting mechanics there. 

I've decided my to go setup for the early stages will be sweetle ranching with tending to get grub grub eggs, to be evolved into meat, plus grubfruit preserve. I may be completely wrong and it might result in a failure due to sulfur demand. We'll see. Here's what I have in mind anyway:
image.thumb.png.4a7fe97e6136022baece359bec9f3ab2.png 

I've tried also Swampy Delights, it seems viable if you have a source of pwater - I had a lot at the start, and this setup:
image.thumb.png.4ebaaac9f8d7424aa5c6e0de6a675a9c.png

is ultra efficient (critters are wild BTW). So, food-wise we have options.

For the rest, you need to explore other asteroids and be lucky on what you find. My 2nd asteroid (where the teleporter sends you to) had no swamp biome. No gold amalgam, no atmosuits, makes accessing the oil biome a challenge. I was lucky enough to grab the single surviving drecko and that's may be a game changer.

Overall I don't feel we have the option not to use rockets, which may or may not be a bad thing, but it's fewer options nonetheless.

Power-wise, there's no longer the almost sustainable stone hatches + coal option. Initially you can trade metal ore for power with slugs, but it's clearly a less sustainable option, and that's it. The 2nd asteroid seems to be power oriented (oil biome, I found ethanol). I was temped to move the entire colony there... mealwood, algae, muckroots... it feels more home, if you know what I mean. It's possible that in the devs' intentions, the 1st world is food-oriented, the 2nd industry/power.

 

I don't really like the new dups selection. I find it a bit too random, and at the end of the day all dups you get from the pod are 'meh'. Maybe in the long run this turns out to be a good thing, making rare dups more rewarding overall. Or giving the option of a small population of very good dups vs. a larger population of 'meh' ones. I'm not sure about that yet, let's say that - for now - I'm not really happy about the change.
 

Masks are interesting, but convoluted to use. I've managed to build a crude setup to have all dups in masks all the time:
image.thumb.png.64df90bdaede712f6ab4adb71e0b360d.png

it uses shorter paths to drive dups thru the mask stations if they are available. Some doors you see are unidirectional. Of course a later setup can provide clean oxygen in a sealed room.

I've been using it for like 50 cycle, the price in metal ore is not small, so is the debuff on dups. Probably I wouldn't use it again that way. OTOH having dups full time in masks has advantages, you dig everywhere w/o dups grasping for air... Full time masks also means less waste. Most masks are expired or about to when the dups go back to sleep and drop them on the floor. It also centralizes pO2/O2 production. The debuff alone isn't bad, but in chlorine or hydrogen dups get other debuffs and combined definitely they affect the overall effectiveness of dups.

 

Of course there's a lot to explore and first impressions are just that. For sure people will come up with creative solutions to the new problems, and that will offer different options for different gameplay styles.

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Some of this isn't a function of the overall DLC design, but the choice of the starting planet. Presumably in the full game you will be able to start on a Terra-like planet that has hatches and other things. The swamp is easy in some ways, but the limited options for certain things isn't different from Arboria, which lacks a slime biome for example and thus no gold amalgam.

Using the mask stations that way probably isn't even intended. And unnecessary. One sublimation station produces 600 oxygen/s. That can be easily cleaned by putting 5 or 6 deoxidizers on top. That mostly gets rid of the PO in the base. The masks are more for dealing with unbreathable gasses.

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3 hours ago, Steve8 said:

Using the mask stations that way probably isn't even intended. And unnecessary. One sublimation station produces 600 oxygen/s. That can be easily cleaned by putting 5 or 6 deoxidizers on top. That mostly gets rid of the PO in the base. The masks are more for dealing with unbreathable gasses.

It seems to me that you think that I'm worried about pO2. I'm not. Actually, in case you missed that, I'm filling the masks with pO2. My dups breath only pO2. I do use masks to deal with unbreathable gasses...

There's a price you pay for letting dups breath pO2 (+30% consumption IIRC) but masks hold 75kg so it's enough for a dup's day. Cleaning the pO2 has a price too, +11% consumption, plus the power (5W per dup) plus the labor to supply the sand. I'm not saying it's not worth it, I'm saying both have a price and I'm not sure how to weight them at the very early stages.

 

Anyway there are three reasons why I tried that setup with masks:

1) that's one way I like to use atmosuits, right outside the barracks. Or sometimes the washroom. Anyway, a one way out room that dups visit once per cycle to refresh their suits; I wanted to see if masks could be used that way. It turns out, you need a fair amount of pressure for stations to fill up fast enough to keep up with usage;

2) masks gets dropped on the way back and can be recycled only manually, by assigning them to dups; so they are bad for situations for like a room filled with hydrogen (think of a dreckos ranch), or space. Dups put one on entering, perform one errand, drop it on the way back to the main base still almost full. Repeat that everytime a dup has something to do in that room/biome and you get a pile of unused masks. A complete waste. I wanted to create a situation in which dups use the masks up to expiration or close, so for almost the whole cycle;

3) I wanted to test my theory about different path lengths to control dup usage of the masks... they need a way out of the barracks if the stations are not operating, but I wanted them to choose the mask stations if possibile. So far it works well.

 

Masks work wonderfully for CO2. They don't work well to work in chlorine or hydrogen. Multiple debuffs stack on one another and dups become too slow, at least at the beginning.

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4 hours ago, TheMule said:

So, food-wise we have options.

Yes but for the remaining 6.6 cycles which are required to harvest did you have enough food in a Ravaging Hunger setting? That's what I'm curious about.. hope someone can tell us their experience.

4 hours ago, TheMule said:

at the end of the day all dups you get from the pod are 'meh'.

That's one thing I can agree with.. there's so much randomness in the generation of a dupe which makes me question what percentage would yield a good dupe vs. a bad dupe vs. a meh dupe. I wonder if there is any balance in that system. So you don't have to hold out so much on waiting for a good dupe.

4 hours ago, TheMule said:

I've been using it for like 50 cycle

I've used the mask building for like 5 cycles.. I deconstructed it and never looked back. They should rework it or.. well it'll just be one of those buildings that personally have no need to build and waste resources on.

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5 hours ago, TheMule said:

I don't really like the new dups selection. I find it a bit too random, and at the end of the day all dups you get from the pod are 'meh'. Maybe in the long run this turns out to be a good thing, making rare dups more rewarding overall. Or giving the option of a small population of very good dups vs. a larger population of 'meh' ones. I'm not sure about that yet, let's say that - for now - I'm not really happy about the change.

I feel this is something that happens when they add a ton of traits without controlling the rng, it just oversaturates and makes your choices worse because of it. I hope they do something for duplicant selection/generation. Maybe in the next larger content update for the dlc.

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15 hours ago, misotoma said:

Yes but for the remaining 6.6 cycles which are required to harvest did you have enough food in a Ravaging Hunger setting? That's what I'm curious about.. hope someone can tell us their experience.

I'm not sure what you're referring to. My first game was about experimenting of course, so I decided to try both plants. The 2nd setup I've shown was actually the first I tried. At cycle 100, 8 dups, 200k kcal in store, and I'm out of the initial p water on the map. Plants get both the farm station and the (wild) grub grub rub bonus. It seems that now in the starting asteroid you get a pwater slush geyser and the new brine geyser. So, add a tepidizer, and you have the pwater to sustain your food. And water for oxygen.

The 1st setup is the second I tried. It's a BBQ setup mainly. I convert sulfur into BBQ, the idea is to do something similar to hatches.

The plants are there mostly to force grub grub eggs to be produced. Grub grub drop a lot of meat, but the problem with grub grubs - food wise - is their longer lifecycle, 150c like dreckos, which means one egg every 9 cycles instead of 6, for the same amount of labor (grooming). Extra meat seems to compensate for longer cycle. But, what if I find another source of grub grub eggs? Enter sweetles. They should produce one egg every 4.5 cycles (lifetime: 75c), which is a lot! Combine with extra meat from grub grubs (4800g IIRC, 6000 kcal in BBQ), they are twice as good as the old hatches (15 eggs in 75 cycles, each 6000 kcal worth, is 1200 kcal/cycle per critter, vs. 15 eggs in 100 cycles, each 4000 kcal worth for hatches, or 600 kcal/cycle/critter).
As sweetles are twice as efficient than hatches, 8 of them sustain about 10 dups. Like I wrote before, the only problem is that they need plants to tend to to produce grub grub eggs.

Now, adding plants increases the amount of sulfur used (assuming we can't pip-plant them), but also adds to the food. The stable produces the ingredients for Grubfruit preserve, which is another +3 food, like BBQ. There are 19 plants in my setup, I need to run the math on that to see how many kcal they produce (considering also sucrose from sweetles).

Im sure people who are better than me at optimizing things (looking at you @wachunga), will find ways to optimize it further. I can think that if we manage to keep one grub grub in the stable, while we loose something on the egg production (the stable produces as if there are 7.5 sweetles instead of 8), we gain a lot on fruit production. The build gets a tad more complicated, if you want to keep a constant population of 7 sweetles and 1 grub grub inside the stable, allowing them to roam freely.


Another possible optimization is to reduce the number of plants. I have no idea what's the minimum no. of plants to keep the chance of a grub grub egg up in sweetles. I went full on, adding as many as I could (I'm sure that can be improved, too). If they are effective in producing food (sulfur-wise), it's a good idea, if they aren't, minimizing them is the best course of action.

Anyway I find it interesting. Since we start now with dups that can be ranchers from the start, it's a matter of researching 2 levels for the supercomputer and 3 on the food branch to unlock critter droppers, feeders and stations. It can be done very early in the game. If you start with a mech engineer, even the automation can be done very, very early, probably way before you run out of freely available food. Then, it's just a matter of digging enough sulfur (which is in another biome and you need tier-1 digging for that, but it's just the 1st skill point for diggers, not a big deal).

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Okay I feel confident in trying max difficulty settings when DLC comes out.. so many people suggest it isn't hard but I will see.. I hope I don't have to make mush bars lol.. if so I'll do it but as long as I reach sustainability I'll enjoy playing it.

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There's a lot of free food at the start, and with the right starting dups selection you can have a stable running in a few cycles.

 

They kinda ruined the strategy I was working on, that is getting a mech engineer as soon as possible. Now you just pick one at the start.

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